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RE: Personal responsibility and being a victim - 3/31/2008 11:41:07 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		It's always a lot easier to identify what's going on, and claim your own share of the blame, after the fact. During it, all you can do is try to survive. You're bewildered and lost, wondering how things went from going well to going horribly, and trying all the time to get back to the halcyon days.

Afterwards is when, once you've mourned and healed somewhat, you're able to unravel all the tangled strings that brought you to the end. During, there's only reaction, and no time to think.

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RE: Personal responsibility and being a victim - 3/31/2008 11:46:38 AM   
HerLord


Posts: 697
Joined: 2/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Judging by your response I would have to say that you seem to have totally misunderstood my post.


I damn sure didn't... I was just fininshing a hearty post when I came over here to see this... Am wondering if unsaid thread was instigation of this... any way. I absolutely agree with everything I am. If one cannot own thier part in thier "victumization" how the hell can it be prevented from happening again. As you so eloquently posted, It was not your fault that those two raped who, but you do accept ownership of the fact YOU put YOURSELF in a position to allow it to happen. KUDOS to you.

AND, I am deeply sorry for your pain. Though I hope now It is buried deep in your past.

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RE: Personal responsibility and being a victim - 3/31/2008 11:48:59 AM   
LilMissHaven


Posts: 734
Joined: 12/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

quote:

ORIGINAL: LilMissHaven
For instance, one poster mentioned domestic violence and how she'll never forgive nor accept responsibility for what happened to her...GOOD FOR YOU!!! DAMN STRAIGHT!!!  She learned from her experiance and has very little chance of it ever happening to her again.


As soon as someone makes the decision to NOT walk out the door after being abused, then they do take some responsibility for any future abuse.  Keep in mind that I'm not saying it's justified that another would harm anyone for any reason, but when someone steps over your line and you remain, then you have to take some responsibility for yourself and your mind and body.  You've just made a choice.


Never having personal experiance with domestic violence I thought that too at one time.  But, part of lab for psych was to volunteer at a safe house and I learned a lot.

For instance, an abuser doesn't normally just smack you around.  First they wear down your self esteem, self worth, create insecurities in your personal relationships with family and friends.  Which creates a feeling that there's nowhere to turn.  WE know thats not true but I suppose its different when your actually on the battle field.  I spoke with one man (yea that totally blew my mind that women could be so viscious) who didn't leave because his wife had everyone convinced she was so sweet and considerate and he feared he wouldn't get custody of their children, he felt it was better to die by her hand to prove to everyone she wasn't June Cleaver then to leave them in her hands.

In essence I'm  neither agreeing or disagreeing with you its never an easy clear picture.

< Message edited by LilMissHaven -- 3/31/2008 11:50:27 AM >

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RE: Personal responsibility and being a victim - 3/31/2008 11:58:01 AM   
Daddyslilpookie


Posts: 498
Joined: 3/3/2008
From: OC, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Luciferica

To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction


Very well said 

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RE: Personal responsibility and being a victim - 3/31/2008 11:58:09 AM   
sweetnurseBBW


Posts: 2464
Joined: 1/26/2006
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		Tragic things happen and they have happened to me. You can choose to live your life as the perpetual victim, become stagnate and repeat it, or you can take some control and responsibility for your own life. Sometimes that includes professional help. Some people however like to live as the victim, why don't know.

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RE: Personal responsibility and being a victim - 3/31/2008 12:01:13 PM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LilMissHaven

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

quote:

ORIGINAL: LilMissHaven
For instance, one poster mentioned domestic violence and how she'll never forgive nor accept responsibility for what happened to her...GOOD FOR YOU!!! DAMN STRAIGHT!!!  She learned from her experiance and has very little chance of it ever happening to her again.


As soon as someone makes the decision to NOT walk out the door after being abused, then they do take some responsibility for any future abuse.  Keep in mind that I'm not saying it's justified that another would harm anyone for any reason, but when someone steps over your line and you remain, then you have to take some responsibility for yourself and your mind and body.  You've just made a choice.


Never having personal experiance with domestic violence I thought that too at one time.  But, part of lab for psych was to volunteer at a safe house and I learned a lot.

For instance, an abuser doesn't normally just smack you around.  First they wear down your self esteem, self worth, create insecurities in your personal relationships with family and friends.  Which creates a feeling that there's nowhere to turn.  WE know thats not true but I suppose its different when your actually on the battle field.  I spoke with one man (yea that totally blew my mind that women could be so viscious) who didn't leave because his wife had everyone convinced she was so sweet and considerate and he feared he wouldn't get custody of their children, he felt it was better to die by her hand to prove to everyone she wasn't June Cleaver then to leave them in her hands.

In essence I'm  neither agreeing or disagreeing with you its never an easy clear picture.


I will admit that my point of view is limited to someone who has never experienced abuse and I completely understand what you are saying....but...a relationship doesn't change overnight.  Changes are gradual.  So unless the abuser is able to completely convince his victim in the span of a very short period of time that they have no other alternative but to stay with them and be the abused, then there has to be red flags going up right and left that the victim refuses to see for whatever reason.   

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RE: Personal responsibility and being a victim - 3/31/2008 12:11:51 PM   
LilMissHaven


Posts: 734
Joined: 12/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

quote:

ORIGINAL: LilMissHaven

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

quote:

ORIGINAL: LilMissHaven
For instance, one poster mentioned domestic violence and how she'll never forgive nor accept responsibility for what happened to her...GOOD FOR YOU!!! DAMN STRAIGHT!!!  She learned from her experiance and has very little chance of it ever happening to her again.


As soon as someone makes the decision to NOT walk out the door after being abused, then they do take some responsibility for any future abuse.  Keep in mind that I'm not saying it's justified that another would harm anyone for any reason, but when someone steps over your line and you remain, then you have to take some responsibility for yourself and your mind and body.  You've just made a choice.


Never having personal experiance with domestic violence I thought that too at one time.  But, part of lab for psych was to volunteer at a safe house and I learned a lot.

For instance, an abuser doesn't normally just smack you around.  First they wear down your self esteem, self worth, create insecurities in your personal relationships with family and friends.  Which creates a feeling that there's nowhere to turn.  WE know thats not true but I suppose its different when your actually on the battle field.  I spoke with one man (yea that totally blew my mind that women could be so viscious) who didn't leave because his wife had everyone convinced she was so sweet and considerate and he feared he wouldn't get custody of their children, he felt it was better to die by her hand to prove to everyone she wasn't June Cleaver then to leave them in her hands.

In essence I'm  neither agreeing or disagreeing with you its never an easy clear picture.


I will admit that my point of view is limited to someone who has never experienced abuse and I completely understand what you are saying....but...a relationship doesn't change overnight.  Changes are gradual.  So unless the abuser is able to completely convince his victim in the span of a very short period of time that they have no other alternative but to stay with them and be the abused, then there has to be red flags going up right and left that the victim refuses to see for whatever reason.   


I suppose thats where the old addage fits most...Love is indeed blind.

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RE: Personal responsibility and being a victim - 3/31/2008 12:13:54 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		As you pointed out earlier Aileen, we make CHOICES. Whatever our motivation for the choices we ultimately make...we still need to take responsibility for those choices.

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Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Personal responsibility and being a victim - 3/31/2008 1:54:34 PM   
lateralist1


Posts: 886
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline 		As long as people want to be a part of a couple they are going to have to take risks.
How long can someone pretend to be what they are not?
A week, a month, a year, ten years?
Dating is a risk but that's nothing compared to giving up your independence and moving to live with someone.
The greater the need the bigger risks people are prepared to take.
Intimate relationships are stressful. Even people who love one another can irritate the hell out of one another. Abuse isn't always planned. I continue to wonder whether D/s relationships make the likelyhood higher.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Personal responsibility and being a victim - 3/31/2008 2:02:54 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		If I were a betting person, I'd be willing to wager that this was based on another thread.  I don't happen to be on that particular thread, because it was actually the OP of this thread that said everything on that one that I would have.  I'm thinking, mistoferin, that you know exactly the one I'm talking about.

As to this original post itself, I do want to say that I am sorry that those things happened in your life, even though you have accepted those things and moved on.  The point happens to be a very good one.  Granted, just because someone would put themselves in the wrong location at the wrong time, doesn't mean they deserve something to happen to them.  However, as responsible adults, we have to realize that it might not be the smartest idea to put ourselves there.  Yes, things like rape and assult really are based on violence and control, but it isn't exactly the brightest idea on the planet to be  alone downtown at two in the morning because it came into a person's head to talk a walk.  No, it shouldn't have anything to do with it, but let's face it.  We're not living in a perfect world, and some decisions are better than other ones.  Don't think I am saying that such things can't happen anywhere at any time.  They can and they do.  Still, certain situations are higher risk than others, and trust Me, there's not a female on the planet that isn't aware of that.

Non-stranger situations are much easier to identify the role we play in the occurrences of our lives.   The battered women's shelter was mentioned, so I'll go with that.  Spousal abuse (the term people can identify with) is a progression of events.  A person doesn't wake up one day and find themselves in the midst of it.  There's a path that leads to it, and the beginnings of it usually aren't the physical ones.  In hindsight, many can see that path existed, even if they weren't especially aware when it was happening.

These are the extreme examples, of course, but I agree with the point of the OP, which was loud and clear.  When I start reading a thread and the person says, "Well, I did this, this, and this, and then the other person did *that*..... why did this happen to me?", I tend to sit back and wonder to Myself how the person can be so blind.  (I can't help Myself here, so forgive Me.)  Oh, you knew this guy was pushy and wanted to play, even though you didn't, but you spent an amount of time discussing his thoughts about sceneing and then can't figure out why he's acting this way.  Can anybody really think that both people weren't participating?  I couldn't.

Anyway, wonderful post.  I'd like to thank the OP for bringing a good viewpoint of personal responsibility to light.



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(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Personal responsibility and being a victim - 3/31/2008 5:27:04 PM   
TNstepsout


Posts: 1558
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline 		I understand what you are saying and I agree with you. I think there is a difference in someone being responsible or at fault in a situation, and my own responsibility for my well being. As a teenager I too was raped. I was VERY irresponsible of my own safety and well being and it resulted in being raped. BUT, he is still at fault for violating me. The biggest problem I see in the way people look at things is because we might prosecute one party (the rapist) the victim doesn't learn from the experience and doesn't protect herself properly in the future. This is just one example, but it translates to other areas of life.

We can never control everything that happens in the world, but we have a responsibility to minimize our exposure to risk as much as possible. If we don't, and we knew better, then we have only ourselves to blame. Life long victims are those people who constantly ignore the warning signs and fail to learn from past mistakes and seem to experience a never ending string of tragedies. At first glance they might seem like the unluckiest people but when you look closer you realize that they bring a lot of it on themselves.

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RE: Personal responsibility and being a victim - 3/31/2008 5:49:37 PM   
Poetryinpain


Posts: 341
Joined: 3/20/2008
Status: offline 		It would be the best of all possible worlds if no one ever took advantage of a person who put themselves in a position where they could be abused or attacked. This being the real world instead, those of us with friends or relatives that may be in potentially abusive relationships need to keep an eye on those people. Make sure they are not isolated from us; encourage their confidence; help them build and retain their self-esteem. If it's someone who blithely puts themselves in a dangerous situation, talk with them about what they're doing. In both situations, assure that person that you love them (in the agape sense), that you are concerned for their well-being, and that you will not give up on them even if they get mad at you.

If they ignore you and get badly hurt, you will still feel the pain (and possibly grief), but you will know that you did your best. In the best case, they will listen to you and save themselves pain and possibly even death.

pip, been there, done that


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RE: Personal responsibility and being a victim - 3/31/2008 5:53:39 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Erin,

I only read your OP and not anything else, because I want to reply to it first.  I have very similar beliefs as you do.  In fact, coming to such beliefs was a very difficult process for me, yet critical to my ability to forgive myself and heal from all that occurred.

I always despised the idea of being a "victim."  Too proud, I suppose.  In my early 30's I was raped by a Vice President at the firm where I worked.  I didn't tell anyone, not even my husband, because I felt I deserved it.  I felt had I only done the entire list of "woulda, shoulda, coulda's" I had concocted, it would not have happened.  So in that case, I took on ALL the blame and shame, and relieved him of any responsibility.  I thought so poorly of myself then that surly anything bad that happened to me had to have been all my fault.  No action was ever taken as a result.  He certainly had no problem with that.

In my marriage, I did the extreme opposite (I've had a history of being extreme in my emotions).  I never asked to be so ill treated.  I tried to fight back and ultimately gave up as my spirit wilted.  By the time we were in marriage counseling I was so filled with wrath and rage that when my therapist told me I needed to take responsibility for my part in the problem, I chewed him out, very defensively.

Over a year later, after I had left and filed for divorce, I read an excerpt from Don Ruiz Miguel's "The Mastery of Love" and was struck by the concept that we allow people to treat us the way we believe we deserve to be treated.  You may as well have struck me over the head with a hammer.  In my next therapy appointment, I looked at my therapist and blurted, "Why was it ok for me to be treated like that?  Why did I let it happen?  How can I forgive myself??"  That was my turning point.  My responsibility in my marriage was that I had given up on myself, and I allowed myself to be abused.  I thought little enough of myself to be convinced I deserved the way I was treated.

So, in an obscure way, I consented to my abuse. 

It is a concept often argued against.  But like you, until I took responsibility for my own part in it, I could not heal, and I could not forgive myself,  I could not let go of my shame and embarrassment, and I could not move forward.  The cycle was destined to repeat itself if I did not learn how to prevent it.  So if I could prevent it, surely I could allow it, and allowing it was my choice and my part in the abuse.

I totally agree with you about the degree of personal responsibility.  This is different than blaming yourself.  It's simply recognizing how you fit into the overall picture and how the actions of your life contribute to your destination and stops along the way.

Great thread, and I am glad you wrote it.


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RE: Personal responsibility and being a victim - 3/31/2008 6:13:01 PM   
piopunahele


Posts: 18
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: offline 		I see the same mindset often, and not just regarding victims but also explaining "it just happened" kind of things.  In a perfect world, people would be able to walk city streets at night in a g-string, drunk, alone, smiling and flirting with everyone we come across.  This is not a perfect world.  There are predators out there.  NO ONE DESERVES TO BE RAPED (I feel strongly about that).  I also feel strongly that it is up to me to do whatever I can to prevent that from happening to me.  I may do everything in my power to prevent that sort of situation and still end up being raped.  There is no guarantee.  I do believe my chances of being raped can be reduced by making wise choices, many of which I am prepared to make.  Some, I still am not prepared to make.  Everyone has their own line of how much of their liberty or freedom of expression or freedom of movement they are willing to give up towards this goal.  I'm a slave, so I'm not much stuck on my liberties or freedoms. lol

A similar but slightly different thing that gets my goat is "it just happened."  I have a friend who is a bit of a drama queen.  She and her boyfriend got into a huge arguement and she stormed out and went straight to a local busy bar.  She went alone, got drunk, stewed over what a creep her boyfriend was (which he really isn't), danced all night with a guy and ended up going home and having sex with him.  It ended her relationship.  She was sorry, devastated that her boyfriend could not forgive her and still does not understand why.  Her favorite phrase right now is, "It just happened."  My response is that it did not just happen.  You put yourself into a situation you never should have:  angry and feeling vicious, drinking (which impairs judgement) to compound those bitter feelings, you went alone where no one who cares about you could question or guide you any, and cheated on the man you claim to love.  It didn't just happen.  You made a whole string of choices that led to it. 

We are not just leaves in a stream being tossed any which way by something outside our control.  We make choices and they impact our lives.  Some things are outside our control, but not nearly as many as most people seem to think. 

just my two cents

Aloha,

pio


(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Personal responsibility and being a victim - 3/31/2008 6:14:45 PM   
HerLord


Posts: 697
Joined: 2/14/2008
Status: offline 		Owned...
Powerful message here... thanx for sharing.
I think you are spot on. Taking personal accountabilty is a little different from taking responsibility. I am not trying to open a debate on semantics of definitions, as is so loved by these forums, but merely point out the differences in degrees of acceptance. I am sure it was rough coming to grips with your part in your scenario. It is my thinking that this may be the hardest scenario to come to terms with. I will stipulate, there ARE circumstances where there is a NO FAULT VICTUM, but according to TOS, specific scenarios are not allowed in open discussion. I shall leave it at UM's.

Any, and EVERY thing else, is a choice. Who you choose to be with. Where you choose to be, and when you choose to be there. What you do and wear are all decisions made prior to being in a situation where you might be... taken advantage of. There are also the choices of what NOT to do, such as take self defense classes, carry a self defense weapon of some sort, or even as simple as, not being aware of your surroundings. Again, these, are ALL choices.

more of my copper

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Personal responsibility and being a victim - 3/31/2008 8:42:25 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		There have been so many wonderful and insightful replies on this thread! I want to especially thank everyone who has bared so much of themselves here. If what has been written by some here could be viewed as evidentiary, I believe that it would stand as testament that understanding and accepting the responsibility of one's choices certainly has the power to help a victim become a survivor...and in some cases to allow them to supercede even that and come to a place where they can thrive. Powerful stuff. I think that it should be required reading for some...


_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to HerLord)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Personal responsibility and being a victim - 3/31/2008 9:46:28 PM   
YourhandMyAss


Posts: 5516
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline 		She didn't say she deserved it she said she had a hand in allowing it to happen, and quite clearly recognises that.
quote:

ORIGINAL: lally3

'i deserve it', 'this is my fault'... you didnt, it wasnt.

(in reply to lally3)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Personal responsibility and being a victim - 4/1/2008 2:36:18 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		I think you'd enjoy reading "Sacred Contracts" by Myss. She talks about Archetypes and how we each have 12. 4 of those are the Survival Archetypes, one of which is the Victim.

Master Fire


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(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Personal responsibility and being a victim - 4/1/2008 5:33:07 AM   
StormsSlave


Posts: 629
Joined: 2/6/2008
Status: offline 		Thanks, MofE, for posting this.  I have been the "victim" of abuse.  Shortly after leaving the situation, I read two books that helped.  One was about abusive men and what makes them tick.  For the life of me I can't find the title of it.  I'm sorry.  The other was Dr. Phil's "Life Matters."  In that book, he advocates responsibility and lists things to take responsibility for.  "You married him," still tops my list.  I did marry him, in spite of my concerns.  I allowed myself to be rushed into something I didn't know for sure that I wanted to avoid conflict, then dealt with it for three years before I left.  The whole experience ruined everything.  It destroyed my life, in every possible way.  I lost my credit, my children, most of my friends, part of my sanity, my ability to ever live in my hometown while he's alive, and countless other things.  However, I married him.  If I can't take responsibility for that, then I might as well put a bullet in my brain and give up now, cause I'm never going to learn if I can't take responsibility.

That's just my .02.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Personal responsibility and being a victim - 4/1/2008 6:31:00 AM   
epiphany


Posts: 41
Joined: 12/31/2004
Status: offline 		  This is such a great post, and I truly hope the ones who need to hear this do.

   There are also those who seem to enjoy playing the perpetual victum. At some point they did suffer an abuse of some type, and the attention they received was, for them, addictive.

  They have recreated constant drama in their lives, and never take responsibility for anything. They expect their "real friends: to be there to support and pat them on the back. They whine almost constantly about how badly  / unfairly people have treated them, until their friends become exhausted with trying to fill that need for attention.

  It's sad, because in the long haul, they lose those friends. A healthy person is not going to want to be constantly around something like this. Eventually they will say what their friend doesn't want to hear...words very much like this post. At which point the victum / addict will turn on them, claiming that they don't care about them or aren't really their friend.

  It is, to me, the hieght of selfishness because they are so caught up in this that they really don't ever think to be concerned  / interested in anything going on in their friends lives, but expect their friends complete attention.

Eventually the friend feels used as a foil for the persons self pity and relaizes that the relationship only exists so long as they are willing to be the "loving and supportive friend of the victum". Their friend doesn't really want their help in terms of the truth.


   I have watched this with two old  ( former) friends in the community, . One is now pretty much alone and no one really wants anything much to do with her, she is that unhealthy and draining. The other is fast heading that way. It's sad, truly sad.

  If they could grasp this concept, their lives could be very different...if they only would hear.

Thank you for this post, I am hoping it will serve as a wake up call to some.

 

(in reply to StormsSlave)
Profile   Post #: 40
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