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RE: Mindlessness and Submission - 2/12/2008 9:08:41 PM   
Strannik


Posts: 2
Joined: 2/10/2008
Status: offline 		While I have not read the book in question, I can comment on mindfulnees in relation to Buddhist theory and martial arts practice.
It helps me to equate mindfullness with focus on what one is doing at the moment. The fact is a person can sit watching television and mindlessly reach into a bag of chips, grab one and eat it while focusing on the program he or she is watching. For mindfullness it is necessary to be aware of all action one is involved in (the TV program and eating the chip should be equally attended to).
For a submisive who, without question, follows orders given, mindfullness is demonstrated in focus on the actions necessary to follow those orders regardless of how often the actions have been performed previously or how tedious they may seem. His or her instant compliance might appear mindless as he/she is allowing anothers will to direct action, the submission is individual and the intensity of focus is also individual.
That said I took a quick look at the Amazon profile of the book in question and I gather it is less in line with Eastern thought on mindfullness and more in line with the dangers of getting into rote patterns without thought. Based on that little exposure to the authors ideas, my opinion would be that as a D/s relationship's purpose seems to be highly experiential (even when invovling tedium as punismhment or control) the pleasurable mental and physiclal goals of all involved lead the acts to be not mindless, but an intense focused exploration of feeling.

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)
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RE: Mindlessness and Submission - 2/12/2008 10:22:17 PM   
CuriousLord


Posts: 3911
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		Ah, the illusion of free will!  It causes one to think that they're so much more "alive" than more reasonable things.  Sort of like how drunken tribal dancers may be said to appear as more alive than an educated fellow sitting alone, quietly reading a book of equations.  It's that flailing drunkness, that randomness and whimsical nature that so many associate with life!

As if an obidient slave were any different for lack of random whims.

(in reply to kyraofMists)
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RE: Mindlessness and Submission - 2/12/2008 11:37:32 PM   
Owner4SexSlave


Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		KyroaofMists,

This read resonates with one of my previous threads about "the mindless mass" and society itself.  I was exploring D/s in terms of social group dynamics or in terms of society itself.

Now, to answer your question here.   I would much rather be with a sub/slave that is mindful of things.  Where she could express something intelligent for me to take into consideration or perhaps make me reconsider the consequences.

This might make a difference at the start of relationship compared to one that has lasted for years.   This is something that should be talked about between two people in a D/s relationship regarding the proper protocal or how to handle any changes.

In short there is nothing wrong with using your brain and with good honest communication. 

(in reply to kyraofMists)
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RE: Mindlessness and Submission - 2/13/2008 5:07:38 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner4SexSlave

In short there is nothing wrong with using your brain and with good honest communication. 


The question is not so much one of whether to use your brain or not, but rather how to use it.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Owner4SexSlave)
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RE: Mindlessness and Submission - 2/13/2008 6:38:43 AM   
toservez


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From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline 		People often go through life with their minds turned on or turned off. There are people who seek to lose themselves in routine and avoid change or mind stimulus and people who handle routine as part of our life because every human being does deal with it even the ones who go out of there way to consciously avoid it.

I for one can see why being submissive in a power exchange relationship might be attractive to someone looking to turn off their brain but I do not but for one second that it encourages one to turn off their brain. So I do not think this is a chicken versus the egg debate at all. I think if someone is apt to turn their brain off they will and can and if one does not do that they will not. People will find the person that they are compatible with in this area and it not something a dominant has real control over. In other words one who wants to turn their brain off is going to find a situation to and one that does not would balk at a dominant who wants that.

In terms of over the years, like anything routine breeds familiarity which of course can feed a mindless quality to it and this maybe true but the essence of a relationship is not the physical routine of going through life together but how the brains are interacting together. Even people who are addicted to avoiding routine and old equate boring new equates exciting have the routine trap. To me this simply falls into the category of people from the first day in a relationship to the last need to actively engage in the relationship. As soon as one starts just going through the motions then the relationship risks trouble. This is for all type of relationships and not just power exchange ones.


_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to kyraofMists)
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RE: Mindlessness and Submission - 2/13/2008 6:54:18 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

Does submission encourage mindlessness on the part of the submissive? Would mindfulness interfer in the authority transfer? Do you think that mindlessness could have negative consequences? As a dominant do you encourage your submissive to be mindful even when following your own orders? Would it make a difference if it was the beginning of a relationship versus a relationship that has lasted for years?



My Daddy detests mindlessness, and he is constantly encouraging me to be mindful. I do not see the connection between being mindless and being submissive. One of the things that is his biggest pet peeve is when I am not being mindful. I am more so today than I ever have been.


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to kyraofMists)
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RE: Mindlessness and Submission - 2/13/2008 7:09:17 AM   
TracyTaken


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Since you ask: no, not at all. Thing is, mindfulness and mindlessness need not be opposites. Which is a significant part of the basis of various eastern schools of thought; the notion that they can be one and the same.



I thought you were going for something similar to that.  Meditation is like using keen focus to attain a quiet mind, and I find it very difficult.  And, I know that if you find meditation difficult, you aren't doing it right.  LOL.  It's difficult to concentrate on doing something without trying to accomplish anything, or so my hopelessly Westernized mind tells itself.

I did read "mindlessness" more as doing something without using independent thought or imagination (much the way we watch TV or movies). 

(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: Mindlessness and Submission - 2/13/2008 7:23:33 AM   
Aswad


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Status: offline 		Meditation does not necessarily mean sitting still and trying to empty your thoughts; it is simply seeking a stillness of the mind.

Some find it in dance, some in solitude, some on the rack, some in the martial arts, and some with their head resting at the feet of another.

Health,
al-Aswad.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 2/13/2008 7:24:08 AM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to TracyTaken)
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RE: Mindlessness and Submission - 2/13/2008 7:39:25 AM   
toservez


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Meditation does not necessarily mean sitting still and trying to empty your thoughts; it is simply seeking a stillness of the mind.

Some find it in dance, some in solitude, some on the rack, some in the martial arts, and some with their head resting at the feet of another.

Health,
al-Aswad.


I agree with this and what Tracy wrote in terms of partly getting it.

Eastern meditation is about clearing and slowing one’s mind to be able to focus and reflective about life in the scope of the reality of it and not the attachments (false values and qualities) we often cloud our thoughts and actions with. It is actually an important tool to be more mindful and less mindless.


Edited becasue i left out the partly getting it comment

< Message edited by toservez -- 2/13/2008 7:52:53 AM >

_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: Mindlessness and Submission - 2/13/2008 8:12:22 AM   
Leatherist


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when one realizes that life is about more than just surviving-and seeks a vision to follow.

One becomes mindful.

Mindlessness comes from following nothing.

_____________________________

My shop is currently segueing into production mode.

I'm not taking custom orders.

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RE: Mindlessness and Submission - 2/13/2008 9:57:03 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Admittedly picking up his dirty socks is not something I am going to pay attention to. Nor do I see any reason to focus on them except to remember what new place I may find them.

But hard play is the most focusing thing I know. In the middle of it I'm not thinking about cooking dinner or tomorrow's to do list. I'm just there and focused on what's happening to me, on what I feel. And if that isn't being in the moment, I don't know what is

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


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RE: Mindlessness and Submission - 2/13/2008 10:15:24 AM   
laurell3


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Status: offline 		LOL LA has been condemned....that's great.

kyra I'm not sure I would use the word mindlessness as it reminds me of the viewpoint of the troll in random stupidity right now.  One certainly has to be very mindful of whom they are with and whether it's the right choice for them before they get to the point of surrendering that control.  The dynamic that allows one to surrender is in place because of mindfullness that is also on the s part as well. I am always attempting to be mindful of his wishes/desires even when surrendering to his command.  I don't stop thinking merely because I'm not asserting my own will.  I don't see that surrender as negative, although in situations where the prep work and negotiation isn't done and the relationship isn't developed or where someone loses their sense of self, I could see it being a negative thing.   

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to kyraofMists)
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RE: Mindlessness and Submission - 2/13/2008 12:30:17 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Does submission encourage mindlessness on the part of the submissive?


I would think quite the contrary.  Certainly within my slave I encourage mindfulness instead.

Mindlessness is the result of a lazy mind--something that is not helpful in any person (submissive, dominant, switch, or vanilla).


_____________________________



(in reply to kyraofMists)
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RE: Mindlessness and Submission - 2/14/2008 7:51:48 AM   
kyraofMists


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Status: offline 		Thank you to everyone who has responded.  I enjoyed reading the different thoughts expressed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
I have seen the presense of midless submission in D/s when arbitrary protocols are put in place. When the rule becomes central rather than the idea behind the rule.


I think this is what came to mind when I started reading the book.  Rules and protocols just to have them rather than having rules and protocols because it has meaning and value to the relationship.  I am not surprized by the answers to the thread, since my perception is those that have responded have demonstrated in the past that they are mindful of their relationships.

I know when I first started interacting online the fantasy/myth that was expressed to me was that slaves were mindless/automatons.  My Lord quickly dispelled that idea, but if it was expressed to me, then I am sure that it is being expressed to others.

quote:

Rules and protocols are not in my mind supposed to make obedience or submission midless but rather to be used to reinforce the reasons for submission and obedience.

I guess in the end I would say that mindless submission and obedience tends to end up hand in hand with mindless dominance.
Mindfull dominance tends to reinforce midfull submission.



Thank you for this, Sir.  It very much reflects why the protocols we have are so pleasurable for me.

My best to you and your family.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Mindlessness and Submission - 2/14/2008 5:02:53 PM   
Noah


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

I just started reading the book Mindfulness by Ellen J. Langer and the following sentence spurred this post.  I am still considering my own answers, but I thought I would put this out for the boards to chew over.

quote:


When we blindly follow routines or unwittingly carry out senseless orders, we are acting like automatons, with potentially grave consequences for ourselves and others.


Does submission encourage mindlessness on the part of the submissive?  Would mindfulness interfer in the authority transfer?  Do you think that mindlessness could have negative consequences?  As a dominant do you encourage your submissive to be mindful even when following your own orders?  Would it make a difference if it was the beginning of a relationship versus a relationship that has lasted for years?

Knight's Kyra


Hi Kyra,

I don't think there is anything antithetical between mindfulness and submission. A certain mutual friend of ours would be a wonderful person to discuss this with. Or as she would likely put it: person with whom to discuss this.

Some people are more mindful of grammar than others.

The quote from Langer points out important truths, I think. At the same time it ignores--almost denies--a lot of undeniable facts which stand as counterexamples to her claim.

When we drive down a two lane road we seldom mindfully select one lane over the other. In the US we quite reflexively and unthinkingly drive on the right. There's no denying that in driving on the right we are following an order found in the Vehicle and Traffic codes. Doesn't driving in a civilized fashion usually involve a great deal of mindless order following even though it also involves mindfulness to route, risks, the scenery, etc?

Part of driver training is the development of "good" habits, right? I put good in scare quotes since calling these habits good begs the question Langer is dealing with in the snippet. Maybe she addresses healthy, adaptive mindlessness elsewhere in her book. I dunno. I doubt that either you or she would want her ideas accepted or rejected strictly on the basis of one snippet.

One can walk with a thorough mindfulness, attending to each foot as it oscillates beneath. Alternatively one can stroll blithely along with a friend and attend to our conversation instead, letting our feet alternatively carry us down the road in a deeply routine and automatic fashion.

I think they are both kinds of walking just fine.

Don't we all follow the routine of blinking automatically, breathing automatically? And the sky doesn't fall for that.

I won't try to connect a lot of the dots to submission as I think you'll see the sort of thing I'm trying to get at. I will suggest that a dominant may in one case desire your mindfulness and in another your mindlessness. In other cases he may more simply desire a behavior, irrespective of whether it is mindful or not.

Personally, I think that putting more effort into developing mindfulness is not likely to be wasted for me or most people in our culture (or sub-culture, if you'll pardon the expression.) But I'd like to see you be mindful to avoid overdoing it.

(in reply to kyraofMists)
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RE: Mindlessness and Submission - 2/14/2008 6:09:22 PM   
PsyVamp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

I just started reading the book Mindfulness by Ellen J. Langer and the following sentence spurred this post.  I am still considering my own answers, but I thought I would put this out for the boards to chew over.

quote:


When we blindly follow routines or unwittingly carry out senseless orders, we are acting like automatons, with potentially grave consequences for ourselves and others.


Does submission encourage mindlessness on the part of the submissive?  Would mindfulness interfer in the authority transfer?  Do you think that mindlessness could have negative consequences?  As a dominant do you encourage your submissive to be mindful even when following your own orders?  Would it make a difference if it was the beginning of a relationship versus a relationship that has lasted for years?

Knight's Kyra


Being upfront here, knee jerk reaction without reading every one else's responses, so if I am only echoing thoughts, my intentions were good

I would honestly hope that one serving me would not go about their tasks mindlessly; it kind of defeats the purpose in my mind.  I would hope that my submissive would be thinking of me, and how I like things a certain way, and the joy that their service brings to me.  I will have to say though, that I can see where the dominant can become mindless, not paying attention to the acts of the submissive, this might cause the person not to bother with details, and become mindless in their duties.  What joy is there without knowing that the person you are trying to please doesn't acknowledge having received something of value from you?

And I do not think that the difference should be in beginnings or in years of service, it is up to the two in the dynamic to keep it mindful.

Lady Jag

_____________________________

Don't take life too seriously; No one gets out alive. .
Could a blue screen of death constitute being defenestrated?
~Owner of wolf~ (one of them, anyway)

(in reply to kyraofMists)
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RE: Mindlessness and Submission - 2/14/2008 7:20:55 PM   
kyraofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah
But I'd like to see you be mindful to avoid overdoing it.


That is advice that certainly useful for me.  I tend to think too much at times.  I am very lucky to be in a relationship that encourages me to be mindful and encourages me to shut my mind off at times. 

I think Langer's point was more that mindlessness to the point where a person does not notice differences that they need to be mindful of could have negative consequences.

In regards to driving, I have had to be much more mindful while driving the last couple of months.  Transplanting a girl who grew up in South Florida to Northern Canada in the middle of winter makes driving very interesting.  If I were to drive as mindlessly here during winter as I did in Florida he would ban me from the truck  *g* 

Thank you for your post.  I hope our mutual friend is doing well and I may take your suggestion to discuss mindfulness with her privately.  My best to you both.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to Noah)
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RE: Mindlessness and Submission - 2/14/2008 8:29:44 PM   
swtnsparkling


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quote:

chickpea
I think just because you follow a Dom's orders mindlessly, doesn't make it bad.


I don't believe I have ever done anything mindlessly while in service  to my  Dom.

I really like how TracyTaken put it
quote:

I don't see the part of myself that is submissive as being mindless.  It's pretty thought-intensive actually, and I'm more acutely aware of what I'm trying to do and why in that respect than in many other things I do in my life.


_____________________________

Never make anyone a priority who treats you as an option 2003

Walk in Peace
A "No" uttered from deepest conviction is better than a "Yes" uttered merely to please



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RE: Mindlessness and Submission - 2/15/2008 12:55:49 AM   
heartcream


Posts: 3044
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From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline 		This is a timely thread for me, Kyra!

I was walking in the park earlier tonight with my dog, and that word was twirling around me repeatedly, "Mindful... mindful...hmmm...mindful. What does it mean to be mindful?..."

It is possible in my perception, to be mindful and yet also to let go, be spontaneous. I feel being mindful is being in touch with myself, how am I feeling, where am I at. I can be mindful of feeling numb, or mindful of playing, and being silly. I can be mindful about feeling angry. For me being mindful is to know where I am at subjectively and personally, and to not make that unimportant. It does not mean I would act it out externally for whatever reason, in that moment, but I would be keeping abreast of where I am at. I also like the sort of mindful where I am soaking in my environment, taking a walk, looking at the moon in the sky, the light on the snow.

Although the word includes the word 'mind' --so perhaps may be defined as not being of the heart and emotions. I think mindful is where the whole person is all incorporated together.


_____________________________

"Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague." Vincent Van Gogh

I'd Rather Be With You

Every single line means something.
Jean-Michel Basquiat



(in reply to swtnsparkling)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Mindlessness and Submission - 2/15/2008 4:50:51 AM   
dawntreader


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Joined: 11/23/2006
Status: offline 		kyra,
Excellent thread!!!!
 
i don't have the time to elaborate much on my own thoughts but i would like to say the responses have been awesome. i tend to think from an eastern standpoint like Aswad  mentioned, however one thing i did not see mentioned in any responses was "intent".
 
When we are in touch with our selves and are on a path whether submission , spirituality, etc.... there is an "intent" that preceeds this and so even what may seem mindless and unimportant, is the opposite~
 
i look forward to reading more on this thread later today
j

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to heartcream)
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