Mindlessness and Submission (Full Version)

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kyraofMists -> Mindlessness and Submission (2/12/2008 4:12:05 PM)

I just started reading the book Mindfulness by Ellen J. Langer and the following sentence spurred this post.  I am still considering my own answers, but I thought I would put this out for the boards to chew over.

quote:


When we blindly follow routines or unwittingly carry out senseless orders, we are acting like automatons, with potentially grave consequences for ourselves and others.


Does submission encourage mindlessness on the part of the submissive?  Would mindfulness interfer in the authority transfer?  Do you think that mindlessness could have negative consequences?  As a dominant do you encourage your submissive to be mindful even when following your own orders?  Would it make a difference if it was the beginning of a relationship versus a relationship that has lasted for years?

Knight's Kyra



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Mindlessness and Submission (2/12/2008 4:19:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
Does submission encourage mindlessness on the part of the submissive? 

Sure, but that's true of life in general.

There's a time to be mindful, reflective, introspective and all that stuff.

And there's a time to just react, get it done, move on.

quote:

 Would mindfulness interfer in the authority transfer?

If it's a secure relationship and well balanced with effective action, I can see it only as a strength.

quote:

  Do you think that mindlessness could have negative consequences?

If taken too far, absolutely.  Speaking as someone who often overthinks and overanalyzes and had to train myself to learn when to stop, let it go and just DO IT, yeah.

quote:

  As a dominant do you encourage your submissive to be mindful even when following your own orders? 

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

quote:

Would it make a difference if it was the beginning of a relationship versus a relationship that has lasted for years?

Knight's Kyra

We'd probably do fewer and less formal points of reflection over the years, but it would never go away.



TracyTaken -> RE: Mindlessness and Submission (2/12/2008 4:33:48 PM)

quote:



quote:


When we blindly follow routines or unwittingly carry out senseless orders, we are acting like automatons, with potentially grave consequences for ourselves and others.


Does submission encourage mindlessness on the part of the submissive?


It seems to me that this would apply more to the work world, doing the same thing day after day and following the bosses orders, whether that seems like the right thing to do or not, because the paycheck is vital.

I don't see the part of myself that is submissive as being mindless.  It's pretty thought-intensive actually, and I'm more acutely aware of what I'm trying to do and why in that respect than in many other things I do in my life.  I'm really mindless watching TV and the like.  I think physical play and the like is almost a mindfulness exercise, again acutely aware of what is happening.  When I'm gardening or deeply involved in something creative like that, my brain gets really quiet, but that's not the same thing as mindlessness, I don't think.

Interesting question!

edited to correct quotations



Nineveh -> RE: Mindlessness and Submission (2/12/2008 5:05:09 PM)

I have read a lot on being mindful, and I do not think it is always a good state to be in.  I would say that we have several different levels which we can be in.  Unconcious, dreaming, robot, mindful, and transcendent.  Certainly, spending all of one's time in robot mode is not desirable, but sometimes we need to go from mindful into robot mode in order to achieve transcendence (also called Gnosis)



WalterRego -> RE: Mindlessness and Submission (2/12/2008 5:13:43 PM)

The difference here, Kyra is that you are not giving out "senseless orders" for your  sub to carry out. Nor do you want him or her to blindly or unwittingly follow a routine. You want a submissive to be thinking the entire time that he or she is doing something for You. That it should be done in a manner which shows his or her regard for You. To treat the task as something which he or she is investing all of his or her self and submission into.  If the task itself  is a routine one or a rote one, that should not change the submissive's state of mind in  performing it.  He or she can still , while doing "mindless" tasks, be investing himself or her self  and at very least thinking of  You. In a way, it's like meditation which often involves repetition of a rote phrase, concentration on breathing or fingering beads. Those physical tasks, in themselves perhaps mindless, free the mind to ascend to a higher plane.

Any sub who performs your tasks mindlessly is not worth your time. Frankly, it's not worth his or her time either. By their lack of imagination or commitment, they are wasting the opportunity you gave them to enter subspace.



Aswad -> RE: Mindlessness and Submission (2/12/2008 5:26:40 PM)


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catize -> RE: Mindlessness and Submission (2/12/2008 5:40:34 PM)

quote:

 Does submission encourage mindlessness on the part of the submissive? 


 
~~a free association response~~
I think it is like driving a car; one can be mindlessly mindful all at the same time.  If the weather is good and the route familiar I can drive safely, use my turn signals, obey traffic laws and reach my destination without mishap and if pressed have difficulty recalling much of the trip.  If the weather is bad, I’m in unknown territory, or a car pulls out in front of me, I become instantly focused and alert. 
The word automaton is used here in a negative sense.  Don’t we all obey what may seem like “senseless orders” in many settings?  To continue the driving analogy, there are times it seems pretty senseless when the speed limit on a stretch of highway changes from 65 to 55mph.  Yet I step on the brake and slow down.  If that makes me robotic I can live with it. 
Submission sometimes requires faith and other times a quiet acceptance.  If I have chosen wisely to whom I give authority what reasons do I need to follow orders other than it is what I have agreed to do?  The desire to know the why may drive me crazy but all I really need to know is that I am expected to obey because he said so. 



chickpea -> RE: Mindlessness and Submission (2/12/2008 5:47:21 PM)

I think just because you follow a Dom's orders mindlessly, doesn't make it bad.  If you are to do that, you first have to test the Dom and see if you can 100% trust him as far as mindlessly following stuff...if you don't know him that well yet.  But if you mindlessly follow and the Dom isn't trustable 100%, yes you are putting yourself and possibly others in a bad situation.  Also, you know some Doms like a fiesty sub and that you don't follow him mindlessly.  So I guess it all depends on the individuals and different relationships.  Guess don't be stupid about it.



TethersEnd -> RE: Mindlessness and Submission (2/12/2008 5:55:40 PM)

quote:

Does submission encourage mindlessness on the part of the submissive? Would mindfulness interfer in the authority transfer? Do you think that mindlessness could have negative consequences? As a dominant do you encourage your submissive to be mindful even when following your own orders? Would it make a difference if it was the beginning of a relationship versus a relationship that has lasted for years?


i think being mindfull is a prelude to choosing wisely. 




TracyTaken -> RE: Mindlessness and Submission (2/12/2008 5:57:49 PM)

quote:


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LOL.  Is that like virtual meditation?  [:D]



thetammyjo -> RE: Mindlessness and Submission (2/12/2008 6:04:48 PM)

I think that a slave or a submissive can act in a routine fashion but if that routine was established with care and knowledge, it isn't really mindless. The key then is how the relationship sets up these routines I think.

We all do things in a route fashion -- getting up, getting ready for the day, we all have our routines.

Mindlessness only shows itself when a routine must change and the ability to cope has disappeared. A mindless person would simply stop everything and not know what to do or perhaps call the dominant/owner and ask for instructions.

I never want to be a person myself or own a person who could not cope with change. That's part of being a healthy adult and I have no desire to own someone who isn't both healthy in that sense and an adult.



Archer -> RE: Mindlessness and Submission (2/12/2008 6:10:04 PM)

Just furthering the idea running that mindfullness is not contrary to submission or even obedience. It may be that many examples where they run against each other are seen, but that is not the submission or obedience that most D/s pairs discuss.

Mindfull submission and Mindfull obedience are what I hear the most about from within the groups/ people practicing D/s and M/s.
How often do we hear the ideas of being present in the moment?
If you are present in the moment, then you are being mindfull.

I have seen the presense of midless submission in D/s when arbitrary protocols are put in place. When the rule becomes central rather than the idea behind the rule.

Rules and protocols are not in my mind supposed to make obedience or submission midless but rather to be used to reinforce the reasons for submission and obedience.

I guess in the end I would say that mindless submission and obedience tends to end up hand in hand with mindless dominance.
Mindfull dominance tends to reinforce midfull submission.



catize -> RE: Mindlessness and Submission (2/12/2008 6:12:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TracyTaken

quote:


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LOL.  Is that like virtual meditation?  [:D]



 
Or maybe the cyber version of biting one’s tongue?



SirJohnMandevill -> RE: Mindlessness and Submission (2/12/2008 6:20:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
Does submission encourage mindlessness on the part of the submissive?  Would mindfulness interfer in the authority transfer?  Do you think that mindlessness could have negative consequences?  As a dominant do you encourage your submissive to be mindful even when following your own orders?  Would it make a difference if it was the beginning of a relationship versus a relationship that has lasted for years?


Interesting question/observation. I wouldn't want my sub to obey "mindlessly."
 
That said, I do expect my submissive to follow my orders, but she also is free to ask questions. I believe it's my responsibility as a Dominant to be able to give her a reason for whatever I want her to do or do to her. If the questions became too frequent, it would be time to communicate about exactly what's going through her mind, and why.
 
Les (Purveyor of Fine, Handcrafted, Mindful Kink)



Leatherist -> RE: Mindlessness and Submission (2/12/2008 6:42:50 PM)

I think most people could be less mindless by simply turning off the television, getting off of thier volkswagon sized asses-and finding something productive to do.



Aswad -> RE: Mindlessness and Submission (2/12/2008 7:00:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TracyTaken

LOL.  Is that like virtual meditation?  [:D]


Since you ask: no, not at all. Thing is, mindfulness and mindlessness need not be opposites. Which is a significant part of the basis of various eastern schools of thought; the notion that they can be one and the same. Depending on the surrounding conditions, a certain kind of mindlessness can be useful. The kind that Archer (if I read him correctly) is referring to as being present in the moment. This state cannot readily be expressed in words. Thus, when it is being described, the description is sometimes replaced with a blank. As I did.

Health,
al-Aswad.



amayos -> RE: Mindlessness and Submission (2/12/2008 7:23:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

Does submission encourage mindlessness on the part of the submissive? Would mindfulness interfere in the authority transfer? Do you think that mindlessness could have negative consequences? As a dominant do you encourage your submissive to be mindful even when following your own orders? Would it make a difference if it was the beginning of a relationship versus a relationship that has lasted for years?



In my experience on this world, never have I met a mindless submissive—a so-called automaton. The idea is quite a contradiction.

Perfect obedience, contrary to what others may believe, is achieved only through full awareness, rigorous exploration and awakening.



AquaticSub -> RE: Mindlessness and Submission (2/12/2008 8:08:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

Does submission encourage mindlessness on the part of the submissive?

It can. Depends on the people involved, but it's not limited to d/s. You can find similiar situations in the workplace or other areas of life.
quote:


Would mindfulness interfer in the authority transfer?

We don't believe so. He prefers that I ask questions and present different points of view rather than do something I don't understand or agree with.
quote:


Do you think that mindlessness could have negative consequences?

I believe it definately can and the sub/slave is not excused from responsibility.
quote:


As a dominant do you encourage your submissive to be mindful even when following your own orders?

Yes, Valyraen does encourage me to be mindful and consider his orders and the consequences of them.
quote:


Would it make a difference if it was the beginning of a relationship versus a relationship that has lasted for years?

Really only in that it streamlines the process - things that we've already talked about don't need to be talked about again unless circumstances change.



KnightofMists -> RE: Mindlessness and Submission (2/12/2008 8:27:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

Perfect obedience, contrary to what others may believe, is achieved only through full awareness, rigorous exploration and awakening.



I agree with what amayos as stated here

and what Archer states here

quote:

Mindfull dominance tends to reinforce midfull submission.


However, what catize states can appear very true as well

quote:

one can be mindlessly mindful all at the same time. 


In my opinion a journey into a D/s and M/s relationship requires a mindfulness.  But, we will evolve in what we will become mindful of. 

Consider Being able to Walk....  When we first came into this world... walking was well beyond our abilities.  In fact our first movements begin our journey to walk.. but we start well below that level.  Our focus is on moving, crawling and then stand up right and then slow clumsy steps.  Eventually we evolve into walking without concentration.. we walk with little awareness of what we need to do.  But even as we walk, we are indeed mindful of the hazards that will prevent us to walk safely.  We walk along and sudden changes cause us to become immediately aware of our steps.  catize points on driving as an example as well.  Their is an appearance that we do it mindlessly, but we are indeed very mindedful of changes on what is not a normal drive.  Another vehicle suddenly moving into our lane will cause to zero in on the situation immediately. 

These examples show that not a mindlessness as we perform routine tasks.  In fact, it is because we are being mindful in doing routine tasks that we can react effectively to another vehicle suddenly cutting us off.  A driver that is actually driving mindlessly would not react or react to late to avoid a very unfortunate situation.

Being Mindful is not simply the direct effort of focusing on a particular issue/task at hand.  Being mindful is about having an awareness of ones actions that is sufficient to gain the desired results.  When my girls are learning a particular task their is an increased focus on developing the skills to succeed in the task at hand.  As their skills develop, their concentration is lessen, but they are still mindful that they are performing the task to the required level and will immediately adjust to situations the affect their performance.








MasterFireMaam -> RE: Mindlessness and Submission (2/12/2008 8:29:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
Does submission encourage mindlessness on the part of the submissive?

I don't think a relationship dynamic encourages mindlessnes any more than any other relationship. I mean, parents often get their kids ready for school in a fairly mindless way...they're going through the motions. It's only when they stop to think about how precious their kids are that they are mindful. Same thing with submission.

quote:

Would mindfulness interfer in the authority transfer?

Why would it? Being mindful of service is not the same thing as thumbin your nose at the relationship dynamic. It means you're paying attention to what you're doing and, hopefully, being thankful for it.

quote:

Do you think that mindlessness could have negative consequences?

Yes. When we do not pay attention to the world around us, we miss a lot of the small miracles that happen every day. This is especially true in a society where we are bombarded with the negative in the media and such.

quote:

As a dominant do you encourage your submissive to be mindful even when following your own orders?

Yes, I encourage it, but it's not something that you can force someone to do. You can predict the outcome if they are NOT mindful and point out that outcome when it happens, but you can't force someone to be mindful all the time, even if you give them specific things to do. They best we can do as Ds and Ms is remind our s-types when they are NOT being mindful.


quote:

Would it make a difference if it was the beginning of a relationship versus a relationship that has lasted for years?

Yes. After a number of years, things just become routine. It can be easy to not be mindful then. However, when the relationship is new, you'd expect a certain level of "I'm think of you" type behavior. If I don't get that behavior, I assume that they don't care.

Master Fire



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