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RE: Britain partygoers go out of control on New Years - 1/4/2008 3:57:02 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

WTF.... i have only seen one such incident in 55 years of life. Mostly living in an inner city area of London....... Please let me know where these mass murders were taking place.


.Walford.
 
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Poor Kevin.....

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RE: Britain partygoers go out of control on New Years - 1/4/2008 3:59:31 PM   
RCdc


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Status: offline 		And that was just driving a dodgy motor...(corblimey)
Sssshhh... we are admiting we watched the damn thing.  (But I was convinced they were going to break into chaz'n'dave as they carried him down the market).
 
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RE: Britain partygoers go out of control on New Years - 1/4/2008 4:01:34 PM   
FullCircle


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Status: offline 		Why watch Eastenders at Christmas? Do you want to commit suicide? You know they kill someone every year right? Last year it was Pauline, this year Kevin. Is no one safe?

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RE: Britain partygoers go out of control on New Years - 1/4/2008 4:03:47 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

Why watch Eastenders at Christmas? Do you want to commit suicide? You know they kill someone every year right? Last year it was Pauline, this year Kevin. Is no one safe?


Dot is seemingly indestructable.  I think it's the nicotine.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Britain partygoers go out of control on New Years - 1/4/2008 4:06:15 PM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		......enough of the thread hijacking Eastenders references, let's get back to the booze.....(hic)

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RE: Britain partygoers go out of control on New Years - 1/4/2008 4:09:02 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		seems to me that Britian has been showing superhuman restraint, I am informed that some of the piss-ups were on soccer nights...............hadn't heard of any crikket nights tho, whats the story on that?

Basil Fawlty


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RE: Britain partygoers go out of control on New Years - 1/4/2008 4:11:09 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

seems to me that Britian has been showing superhuman restraint, I am informed that some of the piss-ups were on soccer nights...............hadn't heard of any crikket nights tho, whats the story on that?

Basil Fawlty



.........can't play Cricket in the winter......lol....que?

Manuel

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RE: Britain partygoers go out of control on New Years - 1/4/2008 4:15:23 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Cricket piss ups are great, they last all day and every now and then you wake up and shout "Owzat" then pass out again.  The best bit is the test matches last five days !

Tallyho what what !

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RE: Britain partygoers go out of control on New Years - 1/4/2008 4:17:31 PM   
RCdc


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Status: offline 		"Rugby is a beastly game played by gentlemen; soccer is a gentlemen's game played by beasts and Cricket is a game played by 22 fools and watched by 22000 fools"
 
Basil the Rat

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RE: Britain partygoers go out of control on New Years - 1/5/2008 2:19:24 PM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		Hmmmmm Im just adding a disclaimer here regarding my earlier post,
in the late 70s early 80s, most of my friends were on the edges of "society", it was the time of punks and skinheads, depending on which group you were with, kinda decided if trouble came looking for you, or you went looking for it.
Our main highstreet was locked off from traffic for the most part and in a mile stretch there were two clubs and about twelve pubs, some good pubs some not so good . from the age of 15 to 23, I did a lot of drinking, partying, cruisin (as many do at that age)etc etc. Trouble happened but it was mostly a weekend occurance, certainy not widespread.
And on  my last two visits back home, The only person I saw drunk was me getting squiffy on the sherry at my grans 80th birthday party
Lucy
who misses the english pubs


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RE: Britain partygoers go out of control on New Years - 1/6/2008 3:44:19 AM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		EG,

A few inaccuracies:

a) We do not have a problem with alcohol relative to Europe; in fact, in terms of alcohol consumption per head, we are nowhere near the top of the pile - the Germans, Czechs etc drink far more than us. The English problem is binge drinking i.e. focusing on work Monday to Friday, and going overboard with the booze at weekends; it's a long story which goes back to industrialisation and squalid conditions in towns.

b) Regarding your football fans blacklisted comment, around 3,000 Englishmen have banning orders which prevent them from leaving these shores when England are playing in a major tournament abroad. In the interests of balance, the Germans have something similar - they have a hardcore who are prevented from travelling. There are loads of variables here, but the English are seen as the number one in Europe, so when England play abroad - say Germany - every lunatic and his dog turns out to have a crack at the English, this increases the potential for violence when England are playing. Now, I'm not saying the violent side of English football is a myth; it's widely accepted that football hooliganism is one of our greatest exports, but there are plenty of takers out there, too.

c) Your comment: it is also quite sad that nothing else can be found to do other than to drink one's self into a near coma:

You may have lived in England for 5 years, but you haven't grasped an understanding of our culture; take it from me, people aren't getting pissed up because there's nothing else to do.

d) Your comment: I couldn't go anywhere even in the morning without people drinking and young people (not only the young) dying outside of pubs having been beaten to death:

I have never seen anyone beaten to death outside of a pub, and I've been in a fair few pubs in my time; in fact, I can't remember the last fight I witnessed. Nor have I seen people drinking in the morning. We do have a problem with anti-social behaviour, which is in part fuelled by the powerful drinks industry, but your exaggeration leads me to believe you've been duped by the Tory scaremongerers with their "everyone's out of control" spin designed to scare the public into accepting draconian law and order measures.

I'll concede that we have problems with anti-social behaviour, but it's always magnified by our politicians (particularly conservatives) because they think we should be setting an example to the world.

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RE: Britain partygoers go out of control on New Years - 1/6/2008 4:10:39 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		NG..... Do you mean asbo`s and the prevention of terrorism act ?  No wait, they were introduced after Labour scare mongering.... Okay im up to date now. 

Being serious, i think if they reduce 24 hour drinking, all it will do is make binge drinking worse. I can recall living just on the London Surrey border and rushing from the Surrey pubs, which closed at 10.30 in the week, to the nearby London one which stayed open until 11 PM

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RE: Britain partygoers go out of control on New Years - 1/6/2008 5:31:45 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Anyone who thinks there isnt a problem, should come and live in my neighbourhood a while, and sample the delights of -

- food, in various stages of digestion until deposited on the pavement
- drunken idiots shouting up and down the street from midnight to 3am
- being told to "fuck off bitch" when one remonstrates with drunken idiots pissing up the parked cars
- regular street brawls, usually three or four against one
- the police helicopter perched at less than 300ft at all hours of the night, waking the neighbourhood
- ambulances and police cars racing by at least three times a night
- living surrounded by halfwits, parolees, alcoholics, "care in the community" et al, who start the day with a case of beer and proceed from there

And that is the problem really. Those of us who have to live with the underclasses are the ones who see the problem most clearly, because it comes past our front doors every night - those who live in the suburbs and outside the towns dont see it because the people who live there are not the underclasses.

And whether one is part of the underclass depends on earning ability, and earning ability depends on good education and upbringing. Its really no surprise then that we see two versions being described here of the UK drinking experience - the experience I and many others get in areas where the underclass dwell, and the experience others get in more affluent environments. The more affluent are generally more educated and better mannered and more self controlled, and have more opportunities for their leisure time - the underclass sad to say are restricted to indulging only animal interests by comparison.

So the solution is obvious; that we either ban all alcohol because some cannot use it appropriately (after all, this is the approach we take with everything else) - or we move soon to a Brave New World scenario, where only the alphas are permitted booze. But, given that we have so few means of raising tax revenues in this country, it will be booze for all who can buy, as much as they can buy, for a long time to come.

E




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RE: Britain partygoers go out of control on New Years - 1/6/2008 5:49:25 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Those of us who have to live with the underclasses are the ones who see the problem most clearly, because it comes past our front doors every night - those who live in the suburbs and outside the towns dont see it because the people who live there are not the underclasses.

And whether one is part of the underclass depends on earning ability, and earning ability depends on good education and upbringing. Its really no surprise then that we see two versions being described here of the UK drinking experience - the experience I and many others get in areas where the underclass dwell, and the experience others get in more affluent environments.



This may apply to Stourbridge; I'll educate you with regard to Manchester.

The footballers live in Worsley with upwards of £1 million homes; half a mile down the road is Eccles, which is as rough as they come. In Manchester, rough and rich are in close proximity; this ain't no rural, middle-class England where the inhabitants never see the light of day with their less fortunates. So, up here, the "underclasses" and the "well-to-do" are well versed in one another's out-of-school behaviour.

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RE: Britain partygoers go out of control on New Years - 1/6/2008 5:54:42 AM   
RCdc


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Status: offline 		Lady E - with all due respect - 'underclasses'????  I really hope you are being ironic(sometimes it's hard to tell)
I grew up in these 'underclasses'.  I live and still visit these 'underclasses'.  And I promise, NOTHING has changed in the 30+ years I have lived in and out of here.  People do and did carry knives around quite happily.  I did, it was what my family did - and I mean that in the 'traditional' eastend way.  The problem isn't alchohol.  It's the break down of values.  The only difference is the reporting on said occurances - they have to find an excuse - 20 years ago it was unemployment, police brutality, immigrants.  Now, it's alcohol, drugs immigrants and teens with asbos.  In the 50's, it was those damn mods and rockers and the degeneration of urban areas.  It's not nore, just more reporting on it.  I've wandered the estates of Pollock without any problem, visited friends in Brixton and the family in E17.  One of my best friends lives in Romford.  In fact, the only place I have ever felt remotely 'threatened' was in Peterborough, a predominately middle class area and alcohol wasn't a reason.  Right where I live now, there is a group of people who congregate on the benches in the park at the end of my road to drink and they always say good afternoon to me.  Meh - maybe I am don't give off negative vibes to them.  I just don't feel a threat.
 
Every year people get drunk, take drugs, carry weapons, get killed or murdered, create problems with antisocial behaviour.  And every year someone makes the claim that it's much worse than in the old days.  People always look back with fondness on the past like it's some great time.  It was. But the present and the future is not as bleak as is painted.
 
the.dark.

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RE: Britain partygoers go out of control on New Years - 1/6/2008 6:07:44 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		NG - the affluence or lack thereof is not the issue, but an associated condition arising from the real issue, which is education, upbringing and behaviour.

After all, we have all I'm sure heard about the halfwit who won the lottery - his affluence was acquired despite his lack of education, his poor upbringing and his recurrent poor behaviour, and these three aspects persisted regardless. And we all know I'm sure of people who whilst they have never earned sufficiently to be considered affluent, they were educated, from a good upbringing and behaved well.

If we persist with a society which dumbs down everything in public life, which values the lowest common denonimator and celebrates the rights of those who feel no obligation to respect the rights of others, then we will only see a further strengthening of the class divide - which whilst it is more often determined by wealth and income, is actually about education, upbringing and the ability or lack thereof to understand that we are all, like it or not, in this together and that each person must achieve for the whole to achieve, each person must respect others if he is to enjoy respect himself. This is not a prescription for uniformity, but a requirement that within our own individual ways and expression, we have to live and work together.

It is the Thatcherite ideal of "there is no such thing as society" which has brought us to where we are now I believe - her influence is still present. It is this idea that I am the only important person in the world and that everyone else should do as I desire or else STFU or else they deserve a beating until they do, which is omnipresent in our society and once the last inhibitions are removed by alcohol - more quickly in those with less resistance - it is this which spills over into the poor behaviour that some of us get to observe on a regular basis.

E

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RE: Britain partygoers go out of control on New Years - 1/6/2008 9:46:21 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Lady E, Drunks come from all corners of society, they always have and always will. Its just as likely to be kids in good jobs and from decent families getting drunk, as it is those from the poorer areas of town. Police cars and ambulances whizzing up and down is nothing new to inner London, or outer London come to that. Helicopters hovering overhead though......oh please... rarely maybe, not as often as you make it sound though. Even in Brixton

As for the following statement, would you revert to locking them in asylums ?

" living surrounded by halfwits, parolees, alcoholics, "care in the community" et al, who start the day with a case of beer and proceed from there "

Alcoholics in the streets have been part of London life for 300 years But no.... Blame Thatcher as per usual. The only main change over the last 20 years is chucking out time has changed from anywhere between 11 and 1 am to midnight and three am like you said.

As for quoting Thatcher... lets not cherry pick but quote the whole paragraph. The last five words sound societal to me.

"They are casting their problems at society. And, you know, there's no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no government can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours."

Sounds much like the socialists " Power to the people "  ironic eh ?



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RE: Britain partygoers go out of control on New Years - 1/6/2008 12:47:31 PM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		Well PS53, if you could tell me what that thing hovering over the area every Saturday night is, if its not a helicopter, I'd be fascinated to know.

Lets be clear - many of us can get drunk and not make a nuisance of ourselves, but the nuisance caused by the rest when they get drunk is of such a level of nuisance that it impacts on everyone. The ones who cause the nuisance are generally those of the underclass for whom drinking is not only the only thing they have for their leisure time but also the only acceptable means of proving themselves in their peer group, for whom inhibitions are lower and more easily overcome by alcohol and for whom their lives are such that confrontation, aggression and violence are the common currency of expression.

Lets also be clear about what I mean by underclass - which isnt meant as a label of blame, because aside from a very few who choose to belong, the underclass is a group to which any one of us could belong, subject to circumstances changing. This is the socio economic group which is at the very bottom - in fact off the scale in such a way that they are of no interest to mass marketing. It is not a crime to be in this group - but the fact is that most of the trouble we have is derived from the fact that they are shut out of normal society for whatever reason. The frustrations they feel are soothed by alcohol, but the alcohol also lowers their inhibitions to express those frustrations.

And Mrs Thatcher's comment even in its entirety demonstrates something vital to the whole situation. Yes, many of us can look after ourselves and we have done so - but many cannot for whatever reason, instead they are discarded and the result is a broken society in which the rich/poor divide is not one of wealth so much as it is of the ability to take part in a society where regardless of Thatcher's sentiments, none are interested in the welfare of their neighbour, because after all he should take care of himself.

E

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RE: Britain partygoers go out of control on New Years - 1/6/2008 12:53:10 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Ellen, I'm curious, you've seen a helicopter - fine - when was the last time you were out in town on a Saturday night and what did you see?

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RE: Britain partygoers go out of control on New Years - 1/6/2008 1:30:15 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I have my kids here Saturday night NG - if I went down town it might not go down well? And I dont need to be there to know what goes on as the town is less than 200 metres from my door.

But, Friday nights - assuming of course that there is not some miraculous transformation whereby on the following evening there is some vast difference........... which by the fact that the pubs have to put bouncers on for both nights is perhaps unlikely.

"A pint and a fight" is the norm round here I'm afraid. After all, one isnt a real man unless one downs a gallon of Stella, then beats the crap out of someone - and if one is female then one must do as the boys do, for the feminist cause.

Just because it might be different where you live means nothing but that.

E

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