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RE: Study On Masochists - 12/26/2007 10:58:20 PM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania



Masochists, Baumeister believes, are taking a breather from the growing burden of selfhood.


I find this very insightful. I almost always use pain in one of three ways - either to process some non-physical pain that may be too hard to deal with (at a particular time) on an emotional or mental level, to take flight into subspace or, simply because Master wants me in pain. All three of those, for me, do call for a temporary shedding of self. The first two are redirections, the last is the focus of Himself.

quote:

 Relief From the Needy Self

Why would anyone want to escape awareness of the self? Because while a self is a handy, even a necessary, thing to have, it's also very needy. It requires constant upkeep and maintenance. You have to work hard just to maintain a positive self-image. Or "to be in control."


I'm not sure I agree quite so much with this part. I don't find it hard to maintain a positive self-image. I did find it difficult to get there in the first place. Once I found that I actually do like myself, I'm pretty much on an even keel and don't have to work to hard to continue to like myself. Being myself is pretty easy and that's the self I happen to like .. even if others don't. I've also found that because I do like myself quite well, I don't need the rest of the world to like me and by that same token, no one can really effect my ego in any significant way although certainly there are those who piss me off and others who touch me deeply. I do think those characteristics are separate though.

Celeste

ooooookay.. fixing quotes!

< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 12/26/2007 11:04:57 PM >

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RE: Study On Masochists - 12/26/2007 11:40:00 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

What I mean as in a strong sense of self, being able to handle someone "humiliating" me because I have a strong sense of self esteem. I bounce back rather quick from being constructively criticized. I tend to be able to go into a certain space and being called names doesn't hurt me, being "hurt" sends me further into that place where I just go blank, and I can do nothing but feel I suppose.



This is interesting to me.  Are you touching on the concept of emotional masochism?  It is interesting to me because it is an area my Master and I explore quite a bit together.  The very first time he said something, for all intents and purposes, fairly mild to me - he called me a bitch - I felt crushed and I started crying.  The next day I found myself craving that again. 

The intensity of the verbal humiliation became harder and harder.  I always felt as though I were daring him to go deeper - to be harder on me.  The better I felt about myself, the harder I wanted him to be - totally debasing me with his words, as though they couldn't be hard enough.  I was pulled to that.

And yet, without some sense of balance, it can get too heavy, and take a piece of me.  It's a delicate balance for him, to know how far to push to get me in that headspace he likes me in, and when to pull back before it it starts becoming harmful.  The same applies with physical humiliation and degradation. We are currently exploring some of the long term effects this is having.

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RE: Study On Masochists - 12/26/2007 11:43:02 PM   
juliaoceania


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Status: offline 		For the most part he does not say things to me that are humiliating, because he doesn't enjoy that for the most part... occasionally he will let something slip out that I know most people would find "humiliating", but in the context of the moment, it isn't. I do not process it as humilating in that headspace... does that make sense?

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RE: Study On Masochists - 12/26/2007 11:49:19 PM   
ownedgirlie


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Status: offline 		Yes, it makes sense.  I misunderstood at first, thinking that was a practice you engaged in as an expression of your masochism.  I'm at a point where very little he tells me is humliating anymore, although it will still bring me to that "small" place I go to, that he likes me in.  It's the effects of the debasement that we are looking at now.

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RE: Study On Masochists - 12/27/2007 12:28:07 AM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		Laugh...there they go again, psychologists explaining what's "normal" and why everything else is an attempt "to escape the burdens of responsible adulthood."

I guess they wouldn't have a job if they tried any other approach.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:


At a symposium on "Bizarre Behavior: The Social Animal at the Outer Limits," psychologists learned what has previously eluded behavioral experts of all stripes: how to make sense of sadomasochism. Masochists, Baumeister believes, are taking a breather from the growing burden of selfhood.


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RE: Study On Masochists - 12/27/2007 12:56:12 AM   
beneathfeet


Posts: 28
Joined: 1/21/2005
From: East Stroudsburg PA, USA
Status: offline 		my experiences with relating actions to cause are not very deep, and the few times that i have explored them in context with others that share my particular dialects of masochism all seemed to have formed our desires at very early stages of life, somewhere around 4 - 8 years old.  i do not know if this is confined to those who enjoy being Trampled and Foot Fetishists alone.  However the primary conclusion i came away from these discussions with was that being a masochist had as much conscious volition as being someone who enjoys black cherry ice cream.  The end result is that i like being a masochist almost as much as i like being submissive. And my biggest fear is that if someone figures out what makes me a masochist, their next step will be to try and figure out how to cure me of it, which is something i desperately do not want.

On a more positive note, what drives me as a masochist is more than just the physical experience of the pain, though that is always good, it is the almost electric charge that can flow when the chemistry is right between the Woman who is inflicting pain upon me for Her own desire.  Now W/we are talking about pure escapism, butt not from self, it is all about the closed positive feed back loop that just keeps driving stronger and stronger until all that exists is the two of U/us connected by the tendirils of pain and agony She carves upon the canvas of my flesh.

i can honestly say i have no self esteem issues that i am aware of, i do not humiliate easily nor do wish i were someone else.  i do wish i could spend much more time in the throes of agony for the delight of cruelly Sadistic Woman, butt than i may just be a glutton for punishment.  8-)~




< Message edited by beneathfeet -- 12/27/2007 12:57:32 AM >

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RE: Study On Masochists - 12/27/2007 6:17:00 AM   
catize


Posts: 3020
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Status: offline 		Most everyone has something they do to escape the stresses of life.  Gardeners buy rattan sticks to stake their tomato plants, others like to be caned with those sticks.
A few men I’ve known have opined that I ‘need pain as punishment’; atonement for the fact I like sex so much.  I don’t agree.  There are times when a good pain session makes sex superfluous.
Many theories, who knows which, if any, are correct?

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RE: Study On Masochists - 12/27/2007 6:53:09 AM   
angelikaJ


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I received an email from someone and they had this essay printed in their journal. I thought it would make an excellent discussion about masochism.. I also found a book with many excerpts written by the same man in google books. I will provide links to both and chime in after a few responses.



quote:



http://health.yahoo.com/relationships-overview/an-inside-look-at-s-m/pt--Psychology_Today_articles_pto-19951101-000036.html
"The mainstream mild submissive will have one or two favorites," psychologist Roy E Baumeister, Ph.D., reports. For many people, submission goes no further than wanting to make love blindfolded once in a while. Have they thoroughly lost their minds? Probably not, contends Baumeister. At a symposium on "Bizarre Behavior: The Social Animal at the Outer Limits," psychologists learned what has previously eluded behavioral experts of all stripes: how to make sense of sadomasochism. Masochists, Baumeister believes, are taking a breather from the growing burden of selfhood.

 Relief From the Needy Self

Why would anyone want to escape awareness of the self? Because while a self is a handy, even a necessary, thing to have, it's also very needy. It requires constant upkeep and maintenance. You have to work hard just to maintain a positive self-image. Or "to be in control."


Edited to add that I could not put the google book link in because the link is too long and I do not know how to insert a shorter link for it, but here is the name of the book to look it up

Social Psychology and Human Sexuality: Essential Readings By Roy F. Baumeister



He lumps submissives and masochists together... not all submissives are masochistic.
aJ

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RE: Study On Masochists - 12/27/2007 7:57:08 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

He lumps submissives and masochists together... not all submissives are masochistic.
aJ


Actually I thought he did the opposite when I read the entire article. We are not allowed to present the entire piece, it is against the law, so if you read the entire piece he is not talking about submissives that are not masochistic at all, and he isn't talking about people that live in relationships like we do.

I think that would be an entirely different study...

Not defending him mind you, but people who use ethnographic methodologies to do their work (and it seems he has) are usually looking at a rather narrow slice of the pie... his slice is upper middle class professional people...

_____________________________

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Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: Study On Masochists - 12/27/2007 8:00:16 AM   
Leatherist


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Status: offline 		His and his collegues patients who can afford thier exhorbitant fees-in other words.

So he uses the demographic of people unhappy enough with themselves to see shrinks-to do a study? Anyone have other ideas of how he could access HAPPY people in the same demographic?

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RE: Study On Masochists - 12/27/2007 8:00:54 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Laugh...there they go again, psychologists explaining what's "normal" and why everything else is an attempt "to escape the burdens of responsible adulthood."

I guess they wouldn't have a job if they tried any other approach.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:


At a symposium on "Bizarre Behavior: The Social Animal at the Outer Limits," psychologists learned what has previously eluded behavioral experts of all stripes: how to make sense of sadomasochism. Masochists, Baumeister believes, are taking a breather from the growing burden of selfhood.




I wish those psyche guys would study what makes us function well instead of what makes us abby-normal...

I guess that is what my discipline does.. it takes all the freaky things that human beings do and explains them as being "normal" for the environment and context that they exist... I could never have went into psychology, looking at problems never was much fun, I prefer solutions!

This guy doesn't seem to think the Freudian model works well, but he does seem to think that being submissive is a "female" trait... which is really silly and shows he has not done his homework.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Study On Masochists - 12/27/2007 8:04:26 AM   
angelikaJ


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Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

He lumps submissives and masochists together... not all submissives are masochistic.
aJ


Actually I thought he did the opposite when I read the entire article. We are not allowed to present the entire piece, it is against the law, so if you read the entire piece he is not talking about submissives that are not masochistic at all, and he isn't talking about people that live in relationships like we do.

I think that would be an entirely different study...

Not defending him mind you, but people who use ethnographic methodologies to do their work (and it seems he has) are usually looking at a rather narrow slice of the pie... his slice is upper middle class professional people...


Thank you very much for clarifying that.

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RE: Study On Masochists - 12/27/2007 8:30:21 AM   
MadRabbit


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Status: offline 		So what is the difference between a masochist using pain to lower their awareness of self and someone who uses recreational drugs to accomplish the same ends?

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RE: Study On Masochists - 12/27/2007 8:32:11 AM   
chellekitty


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Status: offline 		i keep seeing the title of this thread and thinking...are they gonna be seeing how much pain a masochist can take?  because i'll volunteer to be one of the subjects for the study....

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RE: Study On Masochists - 12/27/2007 8:32:17 AM   
goodgirl08


Posts: 145
Joined: 6/11/2007
Status: offline 		Hi juliaoceania. If you are interested in academic explanations of sadism/masochism you might like a book called Counterpleasures by Karmen McKendrick...it compares masochists to religious ascetics, very interesting theory. (It helped me realize why becoming a nun is my second favorite life choice after being a slave )

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RE: Study On Masochists - 12/27/2007 8:32:29 AM   
Leatherist


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Joined: 12/11/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

So what is the difference between a masochist using pain to lower their awareness of self and someone who uses recreational drugs to accomplish the same ends?


Hard to say, I have dated a few who did both. Needless to say-it did not work out. They tended to be whack jobs.

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RE: Study On Masochists - 12/27/2007 8:35:45 AM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

So what is the difference between a masochist using pain to lower their awareness of self and someone who uses recreational drugs to accomplish the same ends?


Hard to say, I have dated a few who did both. Needless to say-it did not work out. They tended to be whack jobs.


But whack jobs are the best in bed...

Anyways, I brought it up because I imagine I could take this article, rewrite the words "masochists" with "recreational drug users", and in the end, have an article that is still as equally insightful into why people use mind altering substances.

_____________________________

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RE: Study On Masochists - 12/27/2007 8:35:55 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

I'm not sure I agree quite so much with this part. I don't find it hard to maintain a positive self-image. I did find it difficult to get there in the first place. Once I found that I actually do like myself, I'm pretty much on an even keel and don't have to work to hard to continue to like myself. Being myself is pretty easy and that's the self I happen to like .. even if others don't. I've also found that because I do like myself quite well, I don't need the rest of the world to like me and by that same token, no one can really effect my ego in any significant way although certainly there are those who piss me off and others who touch me deeply. I do think those characteristics are separate though.


If one reads the entire article it is extremely flawed, and he does not seem to know what he is talking about... but I do agree with him in one regard, surrendering my ego to Daddy's power at any time has this duel effect, it levels me out to where I do not have to worry about who I am or what I am because when he is actively dominating me he kind of does this on some level, even in nonsexual nonmasochistic ways. At the same time I am not diminished by this psychologically or emotionally most of the time.

Being vulnerable to another human being is hard for some of us, and through my masochism and what occurs during those states, it has made me more vulnerable as time has gone on, perhaps diminishing my sense of "self" in a positive way.

In India they spend their entire lives trying to rid themselves of their ego... perhaps through masochism some of us have this happen without much effort at all? Perhaps that is part of the spiritual aspects of it?

Ponders....

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 12/27/2007 8:36:53 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Study On Masochists - 12/27/2007 8:40:47 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

So what is the difference between a masochist using pain to lower their awareness of self and someone who uses recreational drugs to accomplish the same ends?


Someone who uses drugs in a ritual sense is doing much the same thing... I have very strong opinions about ritual drug use and how it should be accepted. I do have a problem with recreational drug use... the motivations are different to me, and the net result shows the difference..

Studies have shown that incidence of addiction with ritual drug use is either extremely low or nonexistent...

Some people have been known to be addicted to their masochism, some of us use it for a different purpose, such as to connect with self or to religuish our egos, with our partners... maybe that is the difference?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Study On Masochists - 12/27/2007 8:41:34 AM   
chellekitty


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

So what is the difference between a masochist using pain to lower their awareness of self and someone who uses recreational drugs to accomplish the same ends?


Hard to say, I have dated a few who did both. Needless to say-it did not work out. They tended to be whack jobs.


i have done both...though not at the same time...when i was in active addiction i stayed away from bdsm...i did not allow myself to play until my sponser said it was cool...its nice to have a sponser who dabled in being a pro Domme...

things can be done for the right reasons, just like they can be done for the wrong reasons...alcohol is a drug, it has ruined many more lives than any other drug out there, just by being around for so long and being so readily available...but i don't believe that bdsm and drugs mix...because they make you unaware of what is truely going on with your body, whether they numb or heighten your senses, you don't truely know what is going on with you body...

[end rant]

take care
chelle

edited to add: yes, there is a huge difference, as julia pointed out, between ritual drug use and recreational drug use...even though they both start with a "r"....

< Message edited by chellekitty -- 12/27/2007 8:43:35 AM >

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One thing I know: the only ones among you who will be really happy are those who will have sought and found how to serve. ~Albert Schweitzer

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