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restraining order, abuse, court..advice needed - 12/19/2007 10:44:04 AM

lilmonique

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Joined: 3/31/2007
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I have a friend who met/dated a man for about 2 1/2 months. They met on a regular dating site. She recently ended the relationship about a week ago because she felt he was getting too controlling (monitoring what she ate, how she spend her money, critizing how she raised her child etc). Recently, he forced his way into her home after watching her house and waiting for her to arrive home. She tried to lock the door, but he forced his way in. The police were called and he was escorted off the premises, and warned that if he attempts to contact her or goes on her property again, he will be arrested.

While forcing his way into her home, and while they struggled (my friend attempted to push him physically out the door), the man grabbed her wrist. She had it xrayed today, due to it being bruised and swelled. It was not broke, but sprained and she will be seeking a personal protection order against after the police and er reports are ready. She is not sure if she should pursue charges also.

While in her home, the ex bf said that he wants back things that he gave her, and wants to be reinbursed for money that he spent on her while dating. Some of the things that he gave her included household things he stated he had no use for, and would she want these things. He also gave her money to purchase clothing, and now he wants that back also.

My question is, legally does he have a right to make her reinburse him for money he spent on her, and for gifts that he gave her? He is threatening to take her to civil court. He has nothing in writing that the money spent or gifts given were to be given back.

What would you do? Would you press charges? Would you give the items and or money back to him??

Post #: 1

RE: restraining order, abuse, court..advice needed - 12/19/2007 10:45:43 AM

camille65

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Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
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If it were me, I would'nt make a move without speaking to an attorney about it. I wouldn't engage in any contact with him whatsoever.

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(in reply to lilmonique)

Post #: 2

RE: restraining order, abuse, court..advice needed - 12/19/2007 10:46:26 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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nope, a gift is a gift......

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(in reply to lilmonique)

Post #: 3

RE: restraining order, abuse, court..advice needed - 12/19/2007 10:50:40 AM

Stephann

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Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
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Gifts given in good faith cannot be demanded back. He's certainly able to file charges in a civil suit.

I would suggest she needs to decide how much effort he's going to be worth. Filing charges would help a future woman who might have trouble with him (she's not going to be the last.) It will also give her leverage in civil court. On the other hand, criminal charges might also aggrevate him, and trigger even more aggressive behavior.

If she files charges now, she can back out later. If she doesn't bother now, she could find it very difficult later. It's up to her how much effort she wants to spend on the issue; obviously this guy is more angry at her shutting him out of her life, than he is in the money. If he gave him all the money and items he demanded, I'd bet dollars to dimes he'd be just as big of threat as he is now. Going to the police now will make it easier in the future if he continues.

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to camille65)

Post #: 4

RE: restraining order, abuse, court..advice needed - 12/19/2007 10:51:23 AM

topcat

Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline

There are a coupla ways to deal with this.

give him what he asks for, which will be more and more with no end in sight, short of his killing her.

Go right for the guns- charge him with assault, rape, child pornography, call his employer and inform them of his child pornringMake an anomymus tip to DHS about the explosives he is stockpiling, etc.

something that might actually work is to agree that he can come get his stuff, but only at a certain time and place- and ask the cops to be there for safty (in NY this is a common service provided by the Sheriffs Dept.) . Don't let him know in advance that they'll be there.

< Message edited by topcat -- 12/19/2007 10:52:52 AM >

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Post #: 5

RE: restraining order, abuse, court..advice needed - 12/19/2007 10:52:29 AM

mnottertail

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absolutely agreed.......no appeasements.
do not carry on any dialogue with him whatsoever.

Hunker down, you are going to the mattresses and there is no way out of it.

Ron

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 6

RE: restraining order, abuse, court..advice needed - 12/19/2007 11:06:43 AM

laurell3

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It may not be the case that she can back out later if she pursues charges. In fact, the local DA's office may very well pursue charges on their own when the police reports are out. Domestic violence is subject to mandatory prosecution in many jurisdictions now meaning most places have gotten away from requiring an affidavit from the victim or their cooperation to go forward with charges. She should find that out for her jurisdiction. If she calls her local victim/witness organization they should be able to give her at least some idea of how the criminal process with regard to dv cases there work. One thing she might consider is a criminal conviction could result in him being required to pay restitution for her medical bills and damage to the home as a result of the assault without having to file a separate civil action.

With regard to the possibility of a civil case, anyone can sue anyone for anything unfortunately. The way it works here is that if it was not a loan with a promise to pay it back, gifts given during the course of dating are just that gifts. However, general civil law varies from jurisdiction and he can always claim it was a loan, the burden of proof however in any civil lawsuit is on the person filing it to prove that said loan existed.

With regard to the protection order, I would advise her not to wait. While a protection order doesn't mean he won't go there again, it is a clear order to law enforcement to arrest him for any violations. Again, jurisdictions vary, however, here an affidavit is all that is required to get the ball rolling. She can always subpeona in the officers that investigated if there is a full hearing on it and again, here this is something where they have victim/witness representatitves that assist with the process, so a call to them might help her with these decisions. If she doesn't get answers from them there should be some type of domestic violence assistance resource in the community that operates by grant to help out in these very situations.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to lilmonique)

Post #: 7

RE: restraining order, abuse, court..advice needed - 12/19/2007 11:09:07 AM

lilmonique

Posts: 7
Joined: 3/31/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Gifts given in good faith cannot be demanded back. He's certainly able to file charges in a civil suit.

I would suggest she needs to decide how much effort he's going to be worth. Filing charges would help a future woman who might have trouble with him (she's not going to be the last.) It will also give her leverage in civil court. On the other hand, criminal charges might also aggrevate him, and trigger even more aggressive behavior.

If she files charges now, she can back out later. If she doesn't bother now, she could find it very difficult later. It's up to her how much effort she wants to spend on the issue; obviously this guy is more angry at her shutting him out of her life, than he is in the money. If he gave him all the money and items he demanded, I'd bet dollars to dimes he'd be just as big of threat as he is now. Going to the police now will make it easier in the future if he continues.

Stephan

She doesn't think it is so much about the him wanting the items back but more so over the fact that she ended it. The items he gave her he was going to donate to charity if she didn't want them, and included things such as a vaccum cleaner. She is just starting over after a divorce and did not have some basic household items that he gave her.

According to the police, once a personal protection order is issued (after paperwork which must be filed by her) he will be served with the paperwork, and then if the DA wants to press charges, she will be subpeoned to court. That is where she will not have a choice in the matter. He could do jail time if the Judge decides, but on the other hand if she doesn't press charges, maybe next time it could be much worse then just a sprained wrist.

I also agree that it probably could give her leverage in civil court.

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 8

RE: restraining order, abuse, court..advice needed - 12/19/2007 11:13:52 AM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline

I'm not a fan of restraining orders.
If someone's a nut restraining orders won't make any difference to them.
Look at how many who have them who are killed or injured.
If he tries to get into the house again shoot him! If you don't have one buy a gun and learn how to use it!
Don't say one word just open up on him!
If he keeps harrassing you go to the Wiseguys and they can have a little "chat" with him.

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Post #: 9

RE: restraining order, abuse, court..advice needed - 12/19/2007 11:15:19 AM

laurell3

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That's true popeye they are absolutely not a guarantee, however they remove law enforcment discretion from the equation and the penalties for violating them post OJ can be pretty stiff.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 10

RE: restraining order, abuse, court..advice needed - 12/19/2007 11:27:02 AM

awmslave

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Joined: 3/31/2006
Status: offline

It surprises me how fast people are these days bringing in authorities, police, layers SWAT team. I am seeing just a small conflict of very personal matter between two individuals that could have been solved without confrontation. Why not just sit down with your former boyfriend and discuss things.

(in reply to laurell3)

Post #: 11

RE: restraining order, abuse, court..advice needed - 12/19/2007 11:27:47 AM

laurell3

Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline

Because he assaulted her resulting in the need for medical care maybe?

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to awmslave)

Post #: 12

RE: restraining order, abuse, court..advice needed - 12/19/2007 11:34:02 AM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

1. he has no case in civil court- how juvenile and assinine.
2. restraining orders vary from state to state. For instance in New Jersey it is good a lifetime, where as in Pennsylvania it is good for 3 years.

3. if you get a restraiining order- dont violate it on your end. the law frowns on those who use it as a game tool.

4. file a police complaint.
5. get ahold of a batterred womans shelter near you. They are great at this type of thing.

This lady really needs to get it on record that this man bodily hit her. She doesnt need a civil attny.

When I was beat- the batterred womans shelter sent an atty to do a restraining order... [I requested it]
So cost is not an issue.

Even the badess boys dont want to go to jail. Nip it in the bud now- so it is in the file.

(in reply to laurell3)

Post #: 13

RE: restraining order, abuse, court..advice needed - 12/19/2007 11:35:01 AM

lilmonique

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Joined: 3/31/2007
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He forced his way into her home, refused to leave, and sprained her wrist in the struggle before the police came. There is no civil discussion with someone that watches someone's house and then ambushes their way in by physical force. Also, her neighbor witnessed most of the episode (including him running to her door and elbowing his way in, the physical struggle, and him refusing to leave). The front door was left open during the entire episode, and it was the neighbor who phoned the police and stood on the corner and watched everything. The neighbor did not enter the house out of fear for her own safety, but did standby and watch with phone in hand with the police on the other end.

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but a person who's behavior is like this is not going to sit down over coffee for a calm, resolving discussion.

(in reply to awmslave)

Post #: 14

RE: restraining order, abuse, court..advice needed - 12/19/2007 11:36:50 AM

pahunkboy

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From: Central Pennsylvania
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http://www.snbw.org/

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Post #: 15

RE: restraining order, abuse, court..advice needed - 12/19/2007 11:40:39 AM

lilmonique

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Joined: 3/31/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

http://www.snbw.org/

Thank you.

And to everyone else, thank you for your advice, and I will encourage her to file a PPO.

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 16

RE: restraining order, abuse, court..advice needed - 12/19/2007 12:10:06 PM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lilmonique

He forced his way into her home, refused to leave, and sprained her wrist in the struggle before the police came. There is no civil discussion with someone that watches someone's house and then ambushes their way in by physical force. Also, her neighbor witnessed most of the episode (including him running to her door and elbowing his way in, the physical struggle, and him refusing to leave). The front door was left open during the entire episode, and it was the neighbor who phoned the police and stood on the corner and watched everything. The neighbor did not enter the house out of fear for her own safety, but did standby and watch with phone in hand with the police on the other end.

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but a person who's behavior is like this is not going to sit down over coffee for a calm, resolving discussion.

See, what you described here tells me that the police should already have been involved; they didn't follow up on the report of assault?

Yeah, as I suggested, this issue isn't about what she has, but rather his anger at her for breaking it off. She needs to go balls to the wall on him now. It takes a lot of guts; but if she goes hard and I mean really hard now, he might just be sufficiantly scared to leave her alone.

Man who grabs hot stove screams and runs away; never to touch it again.

Stephan Confucious

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to lilmonique)

Post #: 17

RE: restraining order, abuse, court..advice needed - 12/19/2007 12:28:13 PM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

At this point she should not contact him in any way. Dont respond to his calls-emails- or knocks at the door. A reply suggests there is something to negoitate- when her posistion is there is nothing-period. not negotiable.

make a note of various attempts to contact you.

most men will have stopped at this point.... Jail isnt fun- he cant hide under a screen name. it is on record that he stalked and harrassed this lady- the police have his number.

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 18

RE: restraining order, abuse, court..advice needed - 12/19/2007 12:31:00 PM

lilmonique

Posts: 7
Joined: 3/31/2007
Status: offline

Stephann,

The police didn't do any kind of follow-up on the report of assault. She phoned the police this morning because she thought he was outside (turned out to be the water meter reader), and she showed the officer her wrist. However, in ER, she did report what happened, and the it will be in the medical report.

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 19

RE: restraining order, abuse, court..advice needed - 12/19/2007 1:32:03 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

Keep a log of all verifiable contacts from him, even non-threatening ones like driving by. Include time, place, duration, witnesses.

Follow through on the order of protection. Without it the police are more limited in their response. Keep it on her person always.

Don't initiate any contact of her own, make arrangements to give him back all of his stuff with the Sheriff's Office present.
She may not have to give it up under civil law, but that will be one less thing for him to nurse from a grudge to a fury, and it will make her look reasonable and 'over him' at the restraining order hearings.

Don't worry about the monies spent by him, unless it was clearly a loan.

Don't respond in any way that could be mis-interpreted as a back and forth.

Talk to an advocacy group, and take this very seriously...don't relent because he used to be a nice guy and now he's sorry, and don't react emotionally... a cooler head will prevail in court, where they see thousands of upset and drama laden 'He said/She said' cases each year.

(in reply to lilmonique)

Post #: 20

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