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RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/7/2007 7:09:37 AM

dawntreader

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Much of my medical career was working in MRI and CT where all jewelry, including piercings, had to be removed...sometimes even wedding bands. i encountered many people that had reservations about removing certain pieces but never a refusal.

There is not a mark on my body or a piece of jewelry that i wear that is without significance to me...i can totally relate to someone's feelings attached to a symbolic piece.

The proceedures (MRI and CT) themselves are very high anxiety exams for patients and most subconciously believe that only the worst will be found when such "big diagnostic guns" are ordered. A little compassion goes along way in these situations i have found in my experience and never did i have a patient die or even compromise their healthcare during a jewelry delima.
That being said though, i am with Archer about pre-planning when possible. Most medical tests/proceedures require the removal of anything that can cause artifacts or deter the proceedure. And if the proceedure is an emergency, i doubt anyone would think twice about removing anything, even if the removal itself is traumatic.

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Post #: 21

RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/7/2007 7:26:02 AM

OldBastardly1

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I also agree with Archer.

"In my absence, act for Me to care for what is mine."

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RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/7/2007 9:17:53 AM

DesFIP

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I don't think those examples are of obedience to the point of harm. They are examples of people under extreme worry who acted irrationally as is common is such situations. The anxiety over the medical condition is sublimated to anxiety over removing the necklace/collar.

I'm sure if in the case of the easily removed necklace, that if someone told her it was very dirty in the back, she would have no trouble taking it off, cleaning it and putting it back on. But having to take it off because she had a possibly severe medical condition is different.

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RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/7/2007 9:45:46 AM

laurell3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ghitaPVH

Seeing as how Im one of the chicks who was origionally quoted, I figured Id throw in my thoughts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

I don't see the MRI had to call and ask permission thing to be "Life or death". Obviously the time it took to call and ask was not in the long term detrimental. Of course this leads to the idea of, planning for eventualities when you set up protocols. My own protocol for things you generally need permission for is "You have time, you ask. You don't have time, you act as you believe I would act if I was there."
Conflict between obedience and health resolved.

yea...what Archer said.

If the docs had looked at me and said. The MRI happens RIGHT NOW or severe harm will be caused. Yea, Id have gotten the necklace off the fastest way I knew how and not have given it a second thought. If Id have hesitated in that circumstance, I know for a fact Id have been punished for risking myself harm. At the time though, there werent gonna be any changes to the situation if the MRI had happened in 2 minutes or 2 hours. And I was on the phone to P at the time anyway just to let him know the MRI was gonna happen and what the docs had decided so far to that point and yea I was a bit worried and anxious about taking off the necklace and maybe it was a bit silly on my part but at the time I was scared anyway and P wasnt there because of the blasted Army so I was doubly scared cause I was alone and the one and only peice of him I had with me they were making me take off and yea ok so I was a bit irrational, so what. P suggested he call M and that wasnt JUST so someone in charge could come take off the necklace it was so I wouldnt be alone compleatly too. And if having M there to take off the necklace helped calm my fears then I dont see it as being detrimental or causing harm. Sure the anxiety of having to take it off in the first place might have been a bit irrational but I think in some situations its ok to be irrational. Being alone and scared about your health and whats gonna happen if things really are as bad as they think it might be and whats gonna happen to the kids I left at daycare because Daddy's not exactly gonna be able to make it home by 5pm to pick them up if Im stuck at this hospital and who's gonna feed the dog and did I leave the heater on so the birds dont freeze tonight and well..yea...things start running rampant through your head and if some silly sentimental "symbol" helped keep me somewhat sane so be it.

so naner naner boo boo. thhbbttttt

ghita~

Yeah I figured as much. As I stated before this isn't "life or death", they don't have a "dysfunctional relationship", she's not stupid enough to endanger her health, she's just human and held on to what she had at the moment.

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When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to ghitaPVH)

Post #: 24

RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/7/2007 9:55:35 AM

ctrlaltdelete

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The collar -or whatever other item has been used for representation- is an externalized and openly visible representation of and a symbol for the underlying relationship. The collar does not make the relationship any stronger or weaker than the feelings that are investited into and nurtured in that relationship.

An obsessive/compulsive infatuation with the symbol itself can, in my eyes, not be healthy. Instead, it rather runs risk to become a detractor from the actual relationship and its underyying emotions.

Edited for shits and giggles and typos.

< Message edited by ctrlaltdelete -- 12/7/2007 9:56:52 AM >

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RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/7/2007 11:14:15 AM

Aylee

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I think that what the OP was refering to is when the "s" type seems to turn off their brain and blindly follow whatever the "d" type says. An instance that comes to mind is when a "d" type told his "s" type to walk to him, and the sand was covered in broken glass, and her feet were bare. She started to do so, and he had to actually order her to stop. Walking barefoot over broken glass is taking obediance too far. This could have been very detrimental for the "s" type. And no, it was not one of those enpowerment seminars with the broken glass and the hot coals and such.

I have seen/heard other situations such as this. Usually it is by those that are not as knowledgeable or experienced in the bdsm world. I think much of it comes from a lack of understanding about safety issues and that which makes great fantasy does not always translate well into real life.

I think that many are getting hung up on the collar and medical treatment issue, and not seeing the encompassing ideas.

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RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/7/2007 11:21:25 AM

laurell3

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Unfortunately the OP's examples don't fit the overall question and are about people here with the forums which doesn't ever really go over well and obscures the bigger picture.

I do agree there are some that will blindly follow to the exclusion of their own health and safety. However, what is healthy and/or safe is the question and I don't agree that ghita is one of them. As with the 99999 limits threads, the question of course becomes what is detrimental and who choses or defines that? Many would say wiitwd is detrimental period. Do they chose? I have serious reservations about some of the things some of the posters here do on a daily basis that I may think are unsafe. Do I chose for them? Who defines if not us for ourselves?

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to Aylee)

Post #: 27

RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/7/2007 11:32:28 AM

Aylee

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I do not believe ghita is behaving detrimentally either.

I saw the post as: Reading this made me think of actions in a larger sense. . . blah blah blah.

Of course, the original thread that the examples came from was rather amusing in itself, as people kept responding not to the actual question, but instead responded as though Aqua was having issues taking off a collar for medical procedures.

Again I think that there is a difference between the fantasy of "My "d" type makes ALL the decisions for me." And the actual lived reality. For example, if the "s" type is making a turn from a stop sign onto a busy street (in a car, by themselves), they will have to make the decision when it is safe to do that.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to laurell3)

Post #: 28

RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/7/2007 11:53:56 AM

soultoshare

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You know, I had some of the same thoughts when I read the original posts.....and I totally get what this one is trying to say also. Collars, rings, whatever the symbol is....to me, they are simply a symbol, NOT the relationship itself. I can see how others may place different levels of importance on them, I am in no way minimizing their feelings towards it, but I have to wonder sometimes about it.

At no time will I put myself in any situation where harm of any kind may be caused, regardless of what any Dom will tell me. If he bases my obedience and submissiveness on how willing I am to do that, then I'm outta there. We all have brains and common sense, and should be expected to be able to make decisions, no matter how big or small, by ourselves, and not have to worry about any actions that may result from that decision. Death is NOT an option! (Yes, i'm being facetious!) Really, the Doms I have interacted with on all levels have seemed to appreciate the fact that I am fully capable of making decisons all by myself.

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned here....the magnet of an MRI has 20,000 times the pull of the earth's gravity......it will lierally suck an O2 tank off a cart, and turn it into a missle. There is a reason why there are safety classes given at all hospital orientations for staff! That's the reason for no metal in the MRI room.....it has nothing to do with interference on the film.

< Message edited by soultoshare -- 12/7/2007 11:55:17 AM >

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RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/7/2007 6:27:40 PM

DominaSmartass

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prismfire

I find myself looking at this from a different perspective, While I agree they should have just been taken off for the procedures I am wondering about the psychological motivation behind the actions. Actually the information given in both was not enough to state that either person was in a *life or death* situation but only that they were entering a medical procedure. Could it be... that they were responding to something deeper than the symbol

I think you're quite correct there. Thanks for the insight.

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RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/7/2007 6:57:04 PM

Owner4SexSlave

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I would not say this resembles a dysfunctional relationship in any way. Collars carry great meaning. I actually hope this inspires people to think and consider how deeply a collar can actually mean to another. I prescribe to the line of thinking, If you collar somebody, you best damn well mean it. Don't use collar removal as a means of punishment.

(in reply to DominaSmartass)

Post #: 31

RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/7/2007 6:58:35 PM

DominaSmartass

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ghitaPVH

Seeing as how Im one of the chicks who was origionally quoted, I figured Id throw in my thoughts.

Thanks for chiming in and I want to state again that I was not attempting to make any sort of personal attack, only take your words and others' as a starting point for a conversation I wanted to have. I am glad you don't seem to have taken my post personally.

quote:

If the docs had looked at me and said. The MRI happens RIGHT NOW or severe harm will be caused. Yea, Id have gotten the necklace off the fastest way I knew how and not have given it a second thought. If Id have hesitated in that circumstance, I know for a fact Id have been punished for risking myself harm.

Good to hear! I also agree with Archer about the contingency plan thing. The whole issue of what might happen if the master is not there to make a decision is one that concerns me and I don't think enough people do take the time to consider the unpleasant "what ifs" but another rant for another day...

quote:

At the time though, there werent gonna be any changes to the situation if the MRI had happened in 2 minutes or 2 hours. And I was on the phone to P at the time anyway just to let him know the MRI was gonna happen and what the docs had decided so far to that point and yea I was a bit worried and anxious about taking off the necklace and maybe it was a bit silly on my part but at the time I was scared anyway and P wasnt there because of the blasted Army so I was doubly scared cause I was alone and the one and only peice of him I had with me they were making me take off and yea ok so I was a bit irrational, so what. P suggested he call M and that wasnt JUST so someone in charge could come take off the necklace it was so I wouldnt be alone compleatly too. And if having M there to take off the necklace helped calm my fears then I dont see it as being detrimental or causing harm.

I see your point completely. This is very much what Prismfire said. I know that I didn't have enough information about your particular case to make judgements but I had what you told us and it painted a scary picture that lead me to think that there must be people out there who would risk life and limb to not touch a collar that they had been ordered not to touch. And there likely are those people. And those are the ones I wanted to discuss in this thread. Obviously not you :)

_____________________________

“These S&M people ... they are bossy! There’s also a creepy connection between leather sex, ‘Star Trek’ and the Renaissance Faire.”

- Comedian Margaret Cho

(in reply to ghitaPVH)

Post #: 32

RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/7/2007 8:03:53 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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What about a starving Muslim who was told to eat pork by their master because that is all they have?

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RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/7/2007 8:14:54 PM

Aylee

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In Islam I believe that falls under the "God understands," type of thing. The same with excemptions for the Ramadan fast for certain individuals.

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RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/8/2007 12:33:56 AM

MissAnthropic

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I really think thie situation is no different from women refusing to take of thier wedding rings for any reason, even to save thier lives or hands in a work situation. However I find it sad that they dont see that the symbolism is not what is important and the real ties are the ones to thier hearts to the people they love. Those are things that cant be broken or taken away.

cheers

jess

(in reply to ghitaPVH)

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RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/8/2007 8:03:04 AM

Sky42

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While I agree with everything the others said in regards to health and safety, as does my owner who wishes me to be safe and healthy, I was skimming through the board again and the title caught my eye.

I would, as most probably, obey a direct order from my owner to hurt myself, even cause detriment or harm. I'd ask, of course, just to be clear. At the same time as I am utterly willing to do that, I know that she would never ask it of me. Some people will look at that and say 'well, the only reason you are saying you would is because it won't ever be tested'. To those people, I can't respond other than saying they may be right, but it is still how I feel now.

For instance, if the original example came up, collar needing to be removed for medical reasons, and she forbade it, then it would stay. I'd have to find another doctor who could deal with it, or have them do an alternate proceedure, or simply live (or die) with the consequences. Like wise, if we were playing and she wanted me to cut myself on a knife, or hold my hand over a candle, I'd do my absolute best to do it. Natural reactions/reflexes might make it impossible, but I'd try.

It isn't because of any self loathing or hate, or that I can't think for myself; rather, it is because of my total faith and trust in her and submission to her will. I think this is more common in the "TPE" or 24/7 realm than simply Dom/sub realm or scening as there is a commitment there, not people playing and having a good time or exploring.

She has given me the freedom to be myself, and for that I have given myself to her.

(in reply to MissAnthropic)

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RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/8/2007 2:05:56 PM

ShellyD

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"One thing that I haven't seen mentioned here....the magnet of an MRI has 20,000 times the pull of the earth's gravity......it will lierally suck an O2 tank off a cart, and turn it into a missle. There is a reason why there are safety classes given at all hospital orientations for staff! That's the reason for no metal in the MRI room.....it has nothing to do with interference on the film." quote by soultoshare

Where it is true the magnet has a strong pull, it will only work on metals that have an attraction to a magnet. I recently had an MRI and have a number of body piercings that are not easily removable due to their gauge and would have required a visit to a piercer before and after the procedure, not only expensive, but risky for the piercings. I communicated my concerns to the technicians prior to the procedure. The advice I was given was that if a piece of jewelry wasn't pure or quality metal, it would vibrate and create a warm/burning sensation and to advise them if it did and they would give me an ice pack. I do wear quality gold and surgical steel jewelry though and had no issues, no warming and definately no 'missile' activity. I have to admit I was worried before as I was concerned my hood ring might be pulled out..ouch. as the MRI was on the lower part of my body.

Surgically speaking, the problem with metal is in the use of diathermy and this would cause deep burns from the body jewelry, something I am not prepared to experience, and would remove all.

< Message edited by ShellyD -- 12/8/2007 2:08:03 PM >

(in reply to soultoshare)

Post #: 37

RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/8/2007 2:27:38 PM

laurell3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sky42

While I agree with everything the others said in regards to health and safety, as does my owner who wishes me to be safe and healthy, I was skimming through the board again and the title caught my eye.

I would, as most probably, obey a direct order from my owner to hurt myself, even cause detriment or harm. I'd ask, of course, just to be clear. At the same time as I am utterly willing to do that, I know that she would never ask it of me. Some people will look at that and say 'well, the only reason you are saying you would is because it won't ever be tested'. To those people, I can't respond other than saying they may be right, but it is still how I feel now.

For instance, if the original example came up, collar needing to be removed for medical reasons, and she forbade it, then it would stay. I'd have to find another doctor who could deal with it, or have them do an alternate proceedure, or simply live (or die) with the consequences. Like wise, if we were playing and she wanted me to cut myself on a knife, or hold my hand over a candle, I'd do my absolute best to do it. Natural reactions/reflexes might make it impossible, but I'd try.

It isn't because of any self loathing or hate, or that I can't think for myself; rather, it is because of my total faith and trust in her and submission to her will. I think this is more common in the "TPE" or 24/7 realm than simply Dom/sub realm or scening as there is a commitment there, not people playing and having a good time or exploring.

She has given me the freedom to be myself, and for that I have given myself to her.

Assume there is no alternate procedure for an MRI and you cannot do it with any type of jewelry or metal on. Would you seriously not have the MRI because she directed you? Or would you go back to your original premise that she would not direct you to do something that would harm you and from that would encourage you to do things that would help you? If she steps outside those boundaries of safety that you know of her are you prepared to think for yourself about what is healthy for you?

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 12/8/2007 2:28:15 PM >

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to Sky42)

Post #: 38

RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/8/2007 3:25:04 PM

MasterFireMaam

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For some people, symbols are extremely important, but there's a odd thing about the human condition: we can make the symbol mean for than the actual intent behind it. We do it all the time. Even I do. I wear my friend's dog tags on the anniversary of his death. He gave them to me because I totally LOVE dog tags and he was done with that set. They mean so much more to me than they meant to him.

BUT, there's a time to come to reality. I tell mine that they're not to take their collar off, except for health or safety issues...or if keeping it on would break the directive of "keep yourself fit for service". So, that means for an MRI or for security at the airport or for working in a machine shop or something similar, the collar comes off...by their hand.

I just asked my girl about the MRI deal. her comment: Well, wouldn't you take your wedding rings off?

Master Fire

< Message edited by MasterFireMaam -- 12/8/2007 3:34:30 PM >

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Post #: 39

RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/8/2007 6:02:45 PM

Sky42

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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3
Assume there is no alternate procedure for an MRI and you cannot do it with any type of jewelry or metal on. Would you seriously not have the MRI because she directed you? Or would you go back to your original premise that she would not direct you to do something that would harm you and from that would encourage you to do things that would help you? If she steps outside those boundaries of safety that you know of her are you prepared to think for yourself about what is healthy for you?

Seriously, I wouldn't have the procedure. Why? Well, for one, I have given myself to her utterly, and it wouldn't really be that if I just ignored what I didn't like. That being said, she would ~never~ do this unless she already knew something I didn't, wanted more information first herself, or had another plan. Granted, she is level headed and knows it's just a symbol so this specific situation is extremely unlikely to occur. That's simply the dynamic (for lack of a better word that sums it all up) between us. I would, however, probably ask (and possibly plead) to know just why she would deny it.

Consider, for a moment, a horse. For it's owner/rider, the one that it bonds with, it can be ridden into the ground, litterally ridden until it dies. However, a rider would never do this willingly themselves unless there was a very good reason for it. The same goes for dogs. There was a dog who stood between a grizzly and it's master, attacked the enraged bear, so that it's owner could get away safely. The dog was killed. There's many reports of such things, not even taking into account K9 heroics. Yes, some people will argue that they are just animals and didn't understand the consequences. However, it's that same devotion that I have towards her.

(in reply to laurell3)

Post #: 40

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