Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

Obedience to the point of detriment or harm?


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? Page: [1] 2 3   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/6/2007 7:56:40 PM   
DominaSmartass


Posts: 961
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: This month? Maryland
Status: offline 		Reading the "when the collar has to come off" thread I immediately came across two posts which made little alarm bells go off in my head and I wanted to open this for further discussion. While the below were written as examples of certain people's devotion and dedication to the meaning of their collar and assumably to their relationship as well, I am curious if anyone else shares my opinion that a person of this state of mind is perhaps a little too dependent on their dominant counterpart? Please don't take this as me picking on you personally, it's just that your words sparked feelings in me and I need to use them to give context to a wider point.

ghitaPVH wrote:
quote:

My collar isnt a permanant collar, nor is it really even a collar, its a silver necklace, but Ive always treated it like a collar, he gave it to me in much the same way, and he and I know, I never touch it. He puts it on, and takes it off. .... I had to have a MRI a few years ago, and it happened all of a sudden and he was away with the Army for the weekend. I was freaking out at the hospital cause they said I had to take the necklace off. I think the docs thought I was nuts because they had to wait while I called P to find out what to do and he called his best friend who drove up to the hospital to take the necklace off for me.


And Kumasan2 wrote:
quote:

I know a girl who has a collar secured with an allen set screw covered with epoxy. She'd worn it for about three years without removing it and found that she needed an MRI which would mandate its removal for several hours on at least one and likely more occassions. She got so worked up about having to take it off she had to take anti-anxiety meds.



I am not trying to make anyone feel bad about their relationship or the way they feel towards their dominant, however, I am interested in hearing a variety of opinions. Is this an attractive state of mind or an unattractive one? As I'm sure anyone reading this can tell, to me, it's quite absurd and yes, I'm going to be blunt and say that I think it resembles a dysfunctional relationship.

I believe that if obedience to your dominant gets in the way of functioning on your own or would prevent you from being able to take care of yourself in a medically necessary manner (as described above) that there is an issue. But by all means, I am not expecting everyone to agree with me. Interested in hearing from everyone as to how you perceive (or would perceive) a submissive who is unable or reluctant to make important or even life changing/saving decisions without the approval of his or her dominant. Maybe it's really a good thing in some people's eyes...who knows.



_____________________________

“These S&M people ... they are bossy! There’s also a creepy connection between leather sex, ‘Star Trek’ and the Renaissance Faire.”

- Comedian Margaret Cho
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/6/2007 8:01:07 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		It may indicate an attachment to a symbol of the relationship, however, I don't think there's any evidence in those posts to indicate they have "dysfunctional relationships."  In fact, having read many posts from one of those posters, I would actually doubt that was true and I'm not sure how you would think this post wouldn't make her feel bad or how having a hard time taking a necklace off is detrimental or harmful.

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 12/6/2007 8:10:37 PM >

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to DominaSmartass)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/6/2007 8:13:36 PM   
charmdpetKeira


Posts: 916
Joined: 6/2/2007
Status: offline 		I don’t see the problem in these situations as being too reliant on the Dominant, but more a hang up on the symbolism of the collar. Wearing a collar is not what makes the relationship.
It appears to me, as a lack of responsibility to one’s self on the sub’s part and a lack of responsibility to the sub, on the Dom's part; if he has a problem with the sub taking off their collar in a time of emergency.
 
k

< Message edited by charmdpetKeira -- 12/6/2007 8:17:36 PM >

_____________________________

Life is tough, that does not mean it isn't fair.

There is no wrong choice, only consequence.

(in reply to DominaSmartass)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/6/2007 8:20:01 PM   
brienne30


Posts: 6
Joined: 11/16/2007
Status: offline 		I don't know anything about either of the people who wrote the posts you quoted, but I have heard similar stories about/from subs I've known in the past. In all honesty, it does cause me to raise an eyebrow. If they are worried that their Dom would be angry or punish them because its not ever supposed to come off or because he's the one who is supposed to remove it, then I'd be concerned about the possibility of dysfunction. If only because medical procedures, security checkpoints at airports, and in the event your life is in danger should be standard exceptions (IMO) to the rules. Anyone who would want me to die or go to jail rather than touch it myself, isn't someone with my best interests at heart.

Having said that, if it was just driven by the connection to the actual symbol, well, people are attached to all kinds of symbols, I know people who had to remove their wedding rings for the first time in 20 years because of medical procedures, it was difficult for them, they may have even shed a tear or two. .. but they managed to remove it without calling their spouse and asking for permission or for the spouse to come and do it for them. They did it because it was medically necessary and put it back on the second they could. So I can understand why that would be extremely emotional/difficult with a collar of that significance.

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/6/2007 9:22:57 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline 		I wore a collar that was welded on , it never came off; not from the time it was put on; until the time three years after his death that I had it cut off. I went through airports; hospitals, metal detectors...set off alarms everywhere...it never came off.

I was told when he put it on that it was permanant; he meant it. If I removed it; I was removing myself from our relationship. End of story; end of relationship.

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.


(in reply to DominaSmartass)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/6/2007 9:50:13 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		It disturbed me to know that I was co dependent on my partner.  But hey, it is what it is and we're freakin happy so I let it go. 

We're all unhealthy and neurotic in some ways- the point is whether we can still balance that with being a responsible happy adult for the most part.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/6/2007 9:51:24 PM   
DominaSmartass


Posts: 961
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: This month? Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: brienne30
I know people who had to remove their wedding rings for the first time in 20 years because of medical procedures, it was difficult for them, they may have even shed a tear or two. .. but they managed to remove it without calling their spouse and asking for permission or for the spouse to come and do it for them. They did it because it was medically necessary and put it back on the second they could.


Exactly. Despite the emotional ties to the object, these people realized that if it was necessary to take it off, they would do so. I can really not imagine a person who, when faced with a (and I've been watching a lot of HOUSE lately so bare with me, hehe) "You need this MRI now because your life is at risk and you can't have any metal on you" situation would actually refuse to until the dom in question authorized it. That's the point when I say whoa there, someone's got their priorities out of whack. Hell, I'd be pissed beyond belief if any partner - submissive or not - of mine put themselves in danger because they were waiting on permission from me to make a life saving choice. I guess there's something gravely serious and literal about being someone's property if you can have the mentality that you really cannot make that decision on your own, and hell, many people would give and arm and a leg for that kind of power. In theory it's very romantic but in reality *I* would not be able to handle that level of submission, if we call it that, for lack of a better term. Though I would love to be able to see it from the other perspective. Really, I would. Yet, the mentality of "the collar is the relationship" just doesn't compute for me. Collars are things, people are not, well I guess unless someone is a slave and they are but now it's just getting circular.

But this thread was not supposed to be all about collars. I was talking about obedience to the point of harm in any situation. I began my journey into this world as a very young female sub. The man I was with decided that he wanted to go on a drive around manhattan while smoking a joint. He expected me to be obedient and follow him to the car and I guess if I had been a "real" submissive I would have but I figured the risks were just too high and I refused and that was near the end of our relationship because I wasn't going to put myself in harm's way for the sake of letting him be in charge (and stupid.) My judgement call might have saved me from serious consequences because when we did go driving the next time, without the joint, a tail light was burnt out and a cop pulled him over and ticketed him. Good thing he didn't have a joint then.

I guess what I'm saying is that sometimes I just think people get all wrapped up in this slavery and obedience stuff to the point of losing common sense and self preservation.




_____________________________

“These S&M people ... they are bossy! There’s also a creepy connection between leather sex, ‘Star Trek’ and the Renaissance Faire.”

- Comedian Margaret Cho

(in reply to brienne30)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/6/2007 9:56:59 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		It's not about slavery to me- I'd lose all common sense or self preservation in any number of contexts in my relationships, namely my nephews or my partner.  I'm a gazillion times more protective and fierce FOR them than I can ever conceive of being for myself.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to DominaSmartass)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/6/2007 10:03:36 PM   
DominaSmartass


Posts: 961
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: This month? Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

It's not about slavery to me- I'd lose all common sense or self preservation in any number of contexts in my relationships, namely my nephews or my partner.  I'm a gazillion times more protective and fierce FOR them than I can ever conceive of being for myself.



Arggg... That's different though. Losing common sense and self preservation in the "I love my ____ so much I'd die to let him live" sense is one thing but "I love my ___ so much that I'm going to die until he gives me permission to choose to save my life or makes the choice for me" is another. And yes I know I'm talking in hyperbolic extremes here. It's not always life or death but it's easier to see the absurdity (mandatory "to me") when it is. And yes, I KNOW that it's a great and exhilarating image to think that someone owns you to that extent but in my opinion, it's too far for reality. Now...let's see how many people come along and yell back at me that that's just my opinion.

_____________________________

“These S&M people ... they are bossy! There’s also a creepy connection between leather sex, ‘Star Trek’ and the Renaissance Faire.”

- Comedian Margaret Cho

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/6/2007 10:16:30 PM   
adoracat


Posts: 1779
Joined: 2/16/2007
Status: offline 		its a sweet, romantic notion.

however, in reality, i want to wear my collar because it comforts me when i'm not able to be with Daddy.

would i do whatever i could for him?  yes.  would i put my life, my children's lives in danger for him?  no.  one of the commands is "take care of my property, and protect it, EVEN FROM ME".  he expects me to use the brains i carry around, and not be silly in my submission to him.

i love him enough tell him "yes" i care about my own person enough to say "no" when necessary.

kitten

(in reply to DominaSmartass)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/6/2007 10:19:52 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Well it pains me to see a slave friend in pain due to her masters bidding.  And I might even tell her I think she deserves better (and that's only if we're damn close friends). 

The line is where does damage occur?  Can we say where that line is for anyone else?  I guess we do and that's fine, but we should never really act on it. 

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to adoracat)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/6/2007 11:34:52 PM   
LittleWench


Posts: 265
Joined: 11/27/2007
Status: offline 		If I was told my collar had to come off for important reasons I wouldn't ring and ask permission it would just come off... but it is for that reason that I have a key to the lock on my collar, and my Owner's trust, so if it does need to come off it doesnt need to be cut off.  It's a piece of leather, easily replaceable, I am kinda unique and if damaged you can't get another at the store, its a no brainer in  my opinion.  Likewise I dont ring and ask permission to press the button at the pedestrian crossing so that I can cross with the safety of the lights.  It is my responsibility to take care of myself when he cannot.

Having said that, I wear a sterling silver golf bangle, a simple one piece seamless bangle, which I made when I was growing and placed on my wrist and now as I have grown it will not come off without being cut off.  Airports and medical technicians will cope with something that cannot be removed in most cases, however if my collar did have a means of removial, I would never dream of making their job harder by chucking a hissy fit and refusing to remove something that has a means to be removed.  They don't get paid for that.

The short answer to your question is would I obey to the point of detriment or harm... no, but neither would he want me to.

(in reply to DominaSmartass)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/6/2007 11:39:12 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		What use is the symbol of the submission if the submissive is dead?

The symbols of a relationship do not make a relationship.....

I would rather be alive to enjoy a relationship than put the symbol above it....

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to DominaSmartass)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/7/2007 12:33:14 AM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline
quote:

I know people who had to remove their wedding rings for the first time in 20 years because of medical procedures

My rings have been off twice in 40 yrs, once for an MRI and then last month for my surgery. I consider these my collar as well since He said they were to represent that too.

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan


(in reply to brienne30)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/7/2007 12:36:25 AM   
hisannabelle


Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline 		greetings dominasmartass,

there are many kinds of body jewelry that can be worn during an mri and many other medical procedures, as well as other metals and jewelry materials. my body piercings are made from medical grade steel, which falls into that category; titanium and gold are also, from what i understand, safe for wear at least in those situations. personally, i do not have a "permanent" physical collar...i really like the eternity collars but master is not big on collars. if he did want me to wear a permanent collar, i would do so happily and with whatever instructions he gave me in terms of its possible removal; he would most likely get a metal that would not interfere with medical devices, considering that he knows the extent of my heatlh problems and the tests and visits i have to go through. i will eventually have a couple of tattoos for him, but i already have tattoos that i got for myself and those don't interfere with medical issues so much...so my opinion doesn't come from a place of being in the situation you described, but i'll share anyway.

personally, i think if it works for them, it's fine. i have obeyed in cases where it would cause me detriment or harm (although because of the order, not because the order obstructed something else from happening, like a medical procedure). i don't see this as any different. now, my obedience doesn't mean i am codependent or incapable of functioning on my own. i function on my own quite well; my master wishes me to be self-sufficient and able to take care of my needs, especially in the case that he is not there or something happens to him. i do think it might be beneficial for people in situations such as you described to at least make some sort of contingency plan for issues where there may be no other way around it, the dominant cannot be reached, or something happens to the dominant; people rarely talk about that, and those things need to be discussed within the relationship when it comes to things like what you posted.

in terms of losing common sense and self-preservation...well, yeah. i do. i have common sense and at least some modicum of self-preservation in many areas of my life, but my relationship with my master is not one of them, and that works for us, personally. i am comfortable putting my full trust in him and acceptance of his ownership of me; he is happy with having that kind of relationship. i don't believe that makes me codependent; i can function fine without him and without his input when he chooses not to give it, and if i were to be released or he were to pass away, i would be able to take care of myself. i do not need him to micromanage my life, and he does not choose to. but i personally don't see that as relating all that much to the fact that he has my full obedience regardless of whether it causes me harm.

respectfully,
annabelle.


_____________________________

a'ishah (the artist formerly known as annabelle)
i have the kind of beauty that moves...

(in reply to DominaSmartass)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/7/2007 2:33:27 AM   
Maya2001


Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
Status: offline 		the hospital I was at for my surgery would have refused to perform surgery rules clearly posted and does not matter what the metal is made from simply states all jewelry must be removed and that you must have someone available to pick you up or surgery will not be performed.  as others have said the collar or wedding ring is only symbolic of the relationship and I for one am useless to my dom or spouse if I am dead because I held a symbol as more important than my health and well being,  And even to him I will refuse to do something he requests that may caused potential health problems with an explanation as to why, which I have done already, which he was glad I had did because he had not considered or foreseen that what he had asked of me at the time could be a problem, so was glad I used common sense rather than just following an order blindly


_____________________________

Lead me not into temptation - I can find the way myself

(in reply to hisannabelle)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/7/2007 5:20:46 AM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		My sub would be upset at having to take his collar off. Its a symbol with a deep meaning for him. In fact I asked him this question after I saw it, he said he would be very upset, maybe physically ill. Emotions are a strong thing. But his would come off because he knows he must take care of himself. To my way of thinking a collar can be replaced he cannot.
Also his collar would not have to be cut off because I'd never be foolish enough to weld it or seal it so it couldn't come off. I think that maybe the worse part of having it removed, knowing that is could be possibly destroyed in the process. I know some peeps are into the sealing/welding the collars on and if so go for it, but for me I try to be more realistic, things happen and if it has to come off in a hurry I'd rather he be able to do that.

~Lashra

< Message edited by Lashra -- 12/7/2007 5:21:27 AM >

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”






(in reply to Maya2001)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/7/2007 6:03:31 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		I don't see the MRI  had to call and ask permission thing to be "Life or death". Obviously the time it took to call and ask was not in the long term detrimental.  Of course this leads to the idea of, planning for eventualities when you set up protocols. My own protocol for things you generally need permission for is "You have time, you ask. You don't have time, you act as you believe I would act if I was there."
Conflict between obedience and health resolved.

(in reply to Lashra)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/7/2007 6:30:46 AM   
Prismfire


Posts: 48
Joined: 11/5/2007
Status: offline 		I find myself looking at this from a different perspective, While I agree they should have just been taken off for the procedures I am wondering about the psychological motivation behind the actions. Actually the information given in both was not enough to state that either person was in a *life or death* situation but only that they were entering a medical procedure. Could it be... that they were responding to something deeper than the symbol, could it be that - in the case of the first lady- She was seeking support ? Someone there ? affirmation that she would be OK ? Who knows what goes on in someones head in a situation like that. People build VERY strong connections to symbols that are very seldom about the symbol but about the thing that the symbol stands for. I don't think that either indicates a *dysfunctional relationship* besides who are we to judge who is dysfunctional when half the world would tell you we are LOL! I just feel that this is the type of situation that should not be taken at face value, Why not get the person that said that here and ask her what was going thru her mind at the time. I'm sure we will find that she was actually capable of doing it but it was something deeper than that.

(in reply to DominaSmartass)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? - 12/7/2007 6:45:42 AM   
ghitaPVH


Posts: 1363
Joined: 11/14/2007
Status: offline 		Seeing as how Im one of the chicks who was origionally quoted, I figured Id throw in my thoughts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

I don't see the MRI  had to call and ask permission thing to be "Life or death". Obviously the time it took to call and ask was not in the long term detrimental.  Of course this leads to the idea of, planning for eventualities when you set up protocols. My own protocol for things you generally need permission for is "You have time, you ask. You don't have time, you act as you believe I would act if I was there."
Conflict between obedience and health resolved.


yea...what Archer said.

If the docs had looked at me and said. The MRI happens RIGHT NOW or severe harm will be caused. Yea, Id have gotten the necklace off the fastest way I knew how and not have given it a second thought. If Id have hesitated in that circumstance, I know for a fact Id have been punished for risking myself harm. At the time though, there werent gonna be any changes to the situation if the MRI had happened in 2 minutes or 2 hours. And I was on the phone to P at the time anyway just to let him know the MRI was gonna happen and what the docs had decided so far to that point and yea I was a bit worried and anxious about taking off the necklace and maybe it was a bit silly on my part but at the time I was scared anyway and P wasnt there because of the blasted Army so I was doubly scared cause I was alone and the one and only peice of him I had with me they were making me take off and yea ok so I was a bit irrational, so what. P suggested he call M and that wasnt JUST so someone in charge could come take off the necklace it was so I wouldnt be alone compleatly too. And if having M there to take off the necklace helped calm my fears then I dont see it as being detrimental or causing harm. Sure the anxiety of having to take it off in the first place might have been a bit irrational but I think in some situations its ok to be irrational. Being alone and scared about your health and whats gonna happen if things really are as bad as they think it might be and whats gonna happen to the kids I left at daycare because Daddy's not exactly gonna be able to make it home by 5pm to pick them up if Im stuck at this hospital and who's gonna feed the dog and did I leave the heater on so the birds dont freeze tonight and well..yea...things start running rampant through your head and if some silly sentimental "symbol" helped keep me somewhat sane so be it.

so naner naner boo boo. thhbbttttt



ghita~

_____________________________

Don't expect anything of me and I promise I'll never disappoint you.

"The true man wants two things: danger and play. For that reason he wants woman, as the most dangerous plaything. --Nietzsche"

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 20
Page:   [1] 2 3   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> Obedience to the point of detriment or harm? Page: [1] 2 3   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.096