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San Francisco is turning into a joke - 10/19/2007 11:51:46 AM   
cyberdude611


Posts: 2596
Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline 		SAN FRANCISCO - City health officials took steps Thursday toward opening the nation's first legal safe-injection room, where addicts could shoot up heroin, cocaine and other drugs under the supervision of nurses.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071019/ap_on_re_us/supervised_injections
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RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke - 10/19/2007 12:21:12 PM   
pahunkboy


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From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		perplexing in that many ER rooms are closed.

(in reply to cyberdude611)
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RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke - 10/19/2007 12:29:20 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		....and why, pray tell, is this a joke? Or is HIV/AIDS not worth preventing by any means possible?

(edited to add it was a fast reply and not aimed at Pahunk)

< Message edited by philosophy -- 10/19/2007 12:43:14 PM >

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RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke - 10/19/2007 12:37:55 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

SAN FRANCISCO - City health officials took steps Thursday toward opening the nation's first legal safe-injection room, where addicts could shoot up heroin, cocaine and other drugs under the supervision of nurses.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071019/ap_on_re_us/supervised_injections


Think about it, it makes a lot of sense. Several European countries do it and for those who aren't of the rational thinking school how about this for an argument for it, it saves taxpayers a lot of money.

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RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke - 10/19/2007 12:43:25 PM   
pahunkboy


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From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		a social experiment. sad that there is a need for this. seems extreem tho.

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RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke - 10/19/2007 12:49:32 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

a social experiment. sad that there is a need for this. seems extreem tho.


Allowing adicts to use clean needles and use good quality drugs enables them to stay healthy (relatively) and hold down a job and be a functioning, self financing member of society. This sort of thing was pioneered by a London doctor in the seventies and became known as the London project. It was very successful but Maggie Thatcher in her wisdom closed it down. A Swiss doctor on reading how succeddful it was introduced it into Switzerland where it has been going for around 20 years now I believe. Here in Amsterdam addicts are given clean needles from mobile health centres and prostitutes can have check ups. It is self financing by preventing so many people falling ill and having to be fainanced on the heathcare services.

It's not really an experiment anymore, such projects have proved themselves.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 10/19/2007 12:51:24 PM >

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RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke - 10/19/2007 12:56:44 PM   
Aileen68


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Status: offline 		That only has the possiblity of working if an addict uses a clean needle every single time and then disposes of it properly afterwards.  What are the odds of that happening?  Do you think an addict is going to go to a clinic every time he or she needs a fix?

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RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke - 10/19/2007 1:00:31 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen68

That only has the possiblity of working if an addict uses a clean needle every single time and then disposes of it properly afterwards.  What are the odds of that happening?  Do you think an addict is going to go to a clinic every time he or she needs a fix?


Many do. Addicts tend to get to a stage where they just want to clean up but can't. The dailly fight for drugs keeps them tied to a criminal life style. Take away the criminals by giving the addicts what they need to get by day to day and its surprising how many do and most people won't even know they are addicts.

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RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke - 10/19/2007 1:03:42 PM   
cyberdude611


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

....and why, pray tell, is this a joke? Or is HIV/AIDS not worth preventing by any means possible?

(edited to add it was a fast reply and not aimed at Pahunk)


It appears the government has given up in helping these people kick the habit so instead they are taking on the philosophy that if you can't stop them, might as well make it "safe" for them.

And this isn't pot we are talking about. We are talking about some very hardcore narcotics here. These drugs are not safe under any situation. These people need help, not encouragement.

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RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke - 10/19/2007 1:16:20 PM   
Shawn1066


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Status: offline 		You mean it's only started turning into a joke? :-p

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RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke - 10/19/2007 1:25:40 PM   
Zensee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen68

That only has the possiblity of working if an addict uses a clean needle every single time and then disposes of it properly afterwards.  What are the odds of that happening?  Do you think an addict is going to go to a clinic every time he or she needs a fix?


Why bother having a fire department when some buildings are going to burn down anyway?

What do you know yourself, about the odds of addicts using safe sites versus public toilets? You are just speculating.


quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

....and why, pray tell, is this a joke? Or is HIV/AIDS not worth preventing by any means possible?

(edited to add it was a fast reply and not aimed at Pahunk)


It appears the government has given up in helping these people kick the habit so instead they are taking on the philosophy that if you can't stop them, might as well make it "safe" for them.

And this isn't pot we are talking about. We are talking about some very hardcore narcotics here. These drugs are not safe under any situation. These people need help, not encouragement.



Your government gave up on helping people when it started its war on drugs and began warehousing addicts in penitentiaries. The punitive approach doesn't work, as the foray into alcohol prohibition should have taught the USA.

Safe injection sites are places addicts can go, without fear of prosecution to A) reduce the harm of their addiction through access to unadulterated drugs and clean needles - B) have access to counselling, health care, detox and treatment.

Trouble is, there are not enough detox and treatment beds available... lots of prison cells are available, of course.


Z.






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RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke - 10/19/2007 1:36:57 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		I applaud their pragmatism.
quote:

It appears the government has given up in helping these people kick the habit so instead they are taking on the philosophy that if you can't stop them, might as well make it "safe" for them.

CD,
Would you consider that they may also be making it "safe" for more people than "them"? Some of us "us-es" may be safer too. Less infections less change of spreading infections. More "free" access, less need to steal money to pay.

quote:

And this isn't pot we are talking about. We are talking about some very hardcore narcotics here. These drugs are not safe under any situation. These people need help, not encouragement.
Arguing the validity of the value judgment necessary to say what drugs are "hardcore" and which are "soft-core" resulted in the hypocrisy we are faced with today.

I don't think anyone would challenge the availability of "help" for people wanting it. The problem is convincing people they "need" it. We've become a society of enablers when it comes to that aspect of "help". We fill jails with people who have refused "help"; putting them in a place where they can get advanced degrees in criminal behavior.

Yes - these drugs, unlike marijuana, are addictive and potentially dangerous, but they are still illegal for reasons of morality more than practicality. While its moral, or at least accepted, to drink to the point of intoxication this weekend, or take a mood altering prescription drug; you have to make sure your drink and/or drug came from a taxed, government regulated, politically connected, PAC protected source.

There are many reasons not to support the position taken by SF - but at least it deals pragmatically with the problem. To stop the spread of AIDS and Hepatitis it is a good step.

SF also puts on a HELL of a street fair the last Sunday in September!

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RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke - 10/19/2007 1:45:43 PM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		Uh, oh- we're in trouble- Merc and I agree on this one.

Aileen-nope- doesn't need an addict to use a clean needle every time to slow the rates of transmission of diseases like HIV or Hep-C.  The one possible downside is that the world may have moved on- I've gathered from folks that are into needle play that Canadian pharmacies offer relatively easy access to clean needles- hence the idea that restricting needle access was going to limit dope use these days is probably in error.  It probably always was an error anyway- all it did was force addicts to reuse needles rather than stopping anybody- and that lead to more infectious diseases in more people- a very dumb idea in my book.

Sam

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke - 10/19/2007 2:25:57 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

....and why, pray tell, is this a joke? Or is HIV/AIDS not worth preventing by any means possible?

(edited to add it was a fast reply and not aimed at Pahunk)


It appears the government has given up in helping these people kick the habit so instead they are taking on the philosophy that if you can't stop them, might as well make it "safe" for them.

And this isn't pot we are talking about. We are talking about some very hardcore narcotics here. These drugs are not safe under any situation. These people need help, not encouragement.


..do you have any evidence that this clean site/clean needle program is taking resources away from drugs education? Because if it is additional then i still fail to see your argument. Sure, prevent as many people as possible from taking drugs (or drinking or smoking), but whats wrong with a bit of harm reduction as well?

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RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke - 10/19/2007 4:24:56 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Uh, oh- we're in trouble- Merc and I agree on this one.

Aileen-nope- doesn't need an addict to use a clean needle every time to slow the rates of transmission of diseases like HIV or Hep-C. The one possible downside is that the world may have moved on- I've gathered from folks that are into needle play that Canadian pharmacies offer relatively easy access to clean needles- hence the idea that restricting needle access was going to limit dope use these days is probably in error. It probably always was an error anyway- all it did was force addicts to reuse needles rather than stopping anybody- and that lead to more infectious diseases in more people- a very dumb idea in my book.

Sam


And it's offensive to Freedom and Liberty.

If you have the money to buy dope, and the desire to shoot up, that's YOUR CHOICE.

That's called FREEDOM. The freedom to kill yourself slowly. Take that away, and you reduce a Free Man or Free Woman to a Slave.

Everything else is just the Nazi-Wannabes trying to maintain the control they don't have. Hence the USA getting their ass kicked in the War On Drugs for 30 years by DOPE USERS AND POTHEADS.



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RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke - 10/19/2007 8:27:31 PM   
FangsNfeet


Posts: 3758
Joined: 12/3/2004
Status: offline 		Sounds like a glorified Hash Bar.

So who is the actuall supplier of the drugs? What fees would an addict have to pay? If it's all paid by public taxes, I can see drug dealers going out of a job. I can see many rehab facilities suffer as well. 

Though this tactic may help prevent drug overdose and the spreading of disease, how will it help the addict break there addiction and hold a job?

There are fates far worse than death. The opening of this facility will only lower the standards of life worth living. This will only encourge people to live there life as a drug addict and to do nothing more with there life. So how would we be really helping them? The resorces needed to pull this off can be better used somewheres else for the greater good of society. When you truely can't help someone, it's best to let them go where they'll die off. Keeping them around and feeding there addiction will only bring us all down limmiting the resources of the non drug users. 


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RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke - 10/19/2007 8:40:59 PM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline 		Actually there have been many various programs to provide drug users with clean needles and safe places to use, all have had limited success and closed down.  In Switzerland there is a park in the City of Zurick where the addicts go to after they get their fix, then wait until it time again to get another fix.  Amersterdam is now in the process of closing its' famous "Red Light" District, reason...the drug use has gotten out of hand.   All these programs have a few thing in common, they did nothing to stop the spread of the HIV virus nor change the situation on drug addiction.

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RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke - 10/19/2007 8:47:39 PM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
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Status: offline 		To fargle, They get their money for drugs from the people that work for a living. A high percentage of crime in this Country is drug related. Most of these folks are addicts who can no longer work or simply refuse to. They get their money from robbing others.

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RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke - 10/20/2007 4:15:38 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		more toilets in the cities would be a good thing. that is how they should have framed this. imagine- if a duggie is sick. the toilet would allow for graceful and elegent vomiting -

^ arghhhhhhhhhhh!

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RE: San Francisco is turning into a joke - 10/20/2007 4:45:50 AM   
orfunboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

....and why, pray tell, is this a joke? Or is HIV/AIDS not worth preventing by any means possible?

(edited to add it was a fast reply and not aimed at Pahunk)
 

They are doing it to prevent overdoses "
Hoping to reduce San Francisco's high rate of fatal drug overdoses, the public health department co-sponsored a symposium on the only such facility in North America, a four-year-old Vancouver site where an estimated 700 intravenous users a day self-administer narcotics under the supervision of nurses."

The free needle exchanges are to stop aids/hiv.

And i am sorry but i have to agree with the op. Sounds like a bit of a joke. If you want to do illegal drugs, then you will have to take the chance of an overdose or spend your own hard earned cash to buy a babysitter so you don't. 

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