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RE: School of Shock? What the ....... - 9/2/2007 2:19:43 AM   
bignipples2share


Posts: 611
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline 		-Fast Reply, to no one in particular-

I read most of the linked articles on the site, watched a few youtube videos on it, looked at the 'school's site, read all of the comments posted underneath the articles. I went back and forth, reading the readers comments.  At first I considered that yes, this was the last resort, someone pulling their intestines out, those chewing their fingers off. Yes, shock treatment is preferable to that. Yes, it's horrible, but not having fingers, eyes, tongues, cheeks, lips, fingers, is worse.

Then I read the 26 page report...New York State Education Department did on the 'school'......this is just awful. I understand how fast bad behavior can escalate in a matter of seconds, but if the ‘student/client’ has shown no previous aggressive behavior, I don’t understand how they can justify their use of this GED torture device.

I’m sure they promote the use of the GED by saying those with bad behavior will agitate the aggressive ones, which I’m sure it would. Aggressive students shouldn’t be in the same areas as non-aggressive students.

These poor kids are being treated like cattle with no concern for them as individuals, their mental or physical wellness. They’re worse than locked up in jail. They’re being further forced to lock up their minds and anti-social behavior is encouraged with electroshock with no outlet.

This is a travesty. For those that think this isn’t going on in other places and only in the United States, think again, the article mentions one other place, but as another posted noted, there is also Jamaica. I’m sure other countries have their own ‘school’, or whatever name they’re calling it.

I do not know what the alternative is for these poor kids who ARE putting themselves and others in constant life threatening situations. It is stated that they have previously gone the total rewards system route to no avail. However, it doesn't sound to me like most of these children are in this life and death situation with no alternatives.
~Big

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
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RE: School of Shock? What the ....... - 9/2/2007 2:31:04 AM   
bignipples2share


Posts: 611
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

You let him bang it until it hurts, just like I did with my son. You show consistant discipline, while still showing love, you actually work harder.

Orion



While I don't know you, or your situation with your um, this is not about children banging their heads and stopping when it hurts too bad. These children are banging their heads to bloody pulps and continuing on until, if not stopped, they crush their skulls and their brains are spilling out. Many may become violent and dangerous if you attempt to stop them.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
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RE: School of Shock? What the ....... - 9/2/2007 7:39:22 AM   
Ravin


Posts: 49
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline 		I wonder what the chances are of reintroducing a individual from this school who's been there for 2-3 years in society. I mean honestly, they get put back into mainstream and one day they "shock" themselfs while messing with some sort of electrical cord and it triggers something from their past. UGH!  

"Wow, looks good until you peek under the hood" and see how the actual mechanics of it all is laid out.

(in reply to bignipples2share)
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RE: School of Shock? What the ....... - 9/2/2007 8:25:36 AM   
came4U


Posts: 3572
Joined: 1/23/2007
From: London, Ontario
Status: offline 		Hot and cold is being (completed testing now at several acredited universities) reviewed as beneficial for studies in PTST/PTSD.  Not extreme hot or cold either. Somehow the thought patterns during recall are stimulated differently with either hot or cold.  Shocks of such cannot be compared to this ethical and safe experimentation around the world.

(in reply to Ravin)
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RE: School of Shock? What the ....... - 9/2/2007 11:44:58 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Well parenting skills have to be taught, if the person is not adaptable. It is not being taught by parents today as they have no clue. It is being weakened by the many laws that prevent parents from using corporal punishment, and some states even have laws against raising your voice. This is a reflection of the people. We have to stop saying "Poor kids" and realize that sometimes they have to be trated harshly in life. It is better that they learn these lessons at home, than be ill prepared to meet a world that is harsh. We need to stop wrapping our kids in a cocoon of comfort that prevents them from getting scrapped knees. States also need to help provide the resources to teach parents the techniques they need to deal with their children.

It is the parents that need to be fixed first. If they do not have the skills or dedication, they should not be parents. If the mistakenly become parents, then they need to own up to their responsibility, and if it takes societal pressure (not laws) then so be it. If you bring your kids into public places and they act bratty, someone needs to tell them it is unacceptable to allow them to be brats. The excuse that it is not of our business is BS, because they have been brought into public view and there for scrutiny.

Orion

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
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RE: School of Shock? What the ....... - 9/2/2007 11:50:39 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		In extreme cases maybe where they are is best then, or incarcerated for the rest of their life. Each situation will have different specifics and nuances. In these cases psychiatrics and medication would be absolutely necessary, but so would a family support system. from my reading the school had no psychiatric or family support system in place. Kids just do not accidentally wind up like this though, and much of it has to fall back to the accountability of the parents, and that is where the root of these problems need to be addressed.

Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: bignipples2share

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

You let him bang it until it hurts, just like I did with my son. You show consistant discipline, while still showing love, you actually work harder.

Orion



While I don't know you, or your situation with your um, this is not about children banging their heads and stopping when it hurts too bad. These children are banging their heads to bloody pulps and continuing on until, if not stopped, they crush their skulls and their brains are spilling out. Many may become violent and dangerous if you attempt to stop them.



_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to bignipples2share)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: School of Shock? What the ....... - 9/2/2007 12:14:17 PM   
sophia37


Posts: 1433
Joined: 2/7/2006
Status: offline 		I got the feeling these are the lost children. These arent mouthy teenagers who watch too much TV dress funny and are unruly. These are kids that are really out of control. The reason the school keeps chugging along is that in some cases it does make the student calm down. I think the struggle is in knowing which students are the worst and which students can be helped in other ways. Thats got to be a tricky part of the whole.

Im the survivor of a violent childhood. I had a out of control sibling. I also have a friend who had an out of control sibling. And seriously, I mean super super violent personailties which you couldnt predict. Personally, I dont have a problem if my brother would have been hooked up to shock therapy. I think it takes being beaten by or living with an out of control person year in and out, to understand why you would allow that person to be hooked up to wires. Its amazing how hard it is to get the system to help you in these cases. So this is a last resort issue.

Yes, I know there are drugs. And most people get those who are in the running. So this school is for a tiny percentage of our population. The word torture is a relative term. To the familys living with this nightmare, perhaps they are the ones being tortured. Nobody wins in some cases. Nobody wins.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
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RE: School of Shock? What the ....... - 9/2/2007 12:18:20 PM   
sophia37


Posts: 1433
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Status: offline 		PS. Dear OrionTheWolf. With all due respect. You are a dimwit to blame all parenting skills It shows how little of the world you actually know of.

(in reply to sophia37)
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RE: School of Shock? What the ....... - 9/2/2007 5:05:34 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		......FR......

when it comes to SIB there are a number of techniques that have worked in some circumstances. No one strategy works in all cases, because the totality of human possibilities is complex......simple answers say more about the answerer than the question.

(in reply to sophia37)
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RE: School of Shock? What the ....... - 9/2/2007 5:47:29 PM   
bignipples2share


Posts: 611
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline 		Orion, you're just not understanding what is being discussed here.

~Big

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
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RE: School of Shock? What the ....... - 9/2/2007 5:50:02 PM   
bignipples2share


Posts: 611
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline 		I sure hope the hot and cold therapy will work for those worst case patients. Is there a link, or place I can look this up?

~Big


(in reply to came4U)
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RE: School of Shock? What the ....... - 9/2/2007 9:31:16 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Sophie,

Thinking you know me, and how much of the world I do know, shows your complete ignorance. The parents are the largest part of the equation, and the ones that should take accountability for their children. I know enough to raise a couple of great kids, through some pretty difficult times, and without their Mother. I know enough to have helped my neices and nephews, because my sister lacked in parenting skills. I know enough to grow up in government assisted living, educate myself and become a business owner. I know enough to accept that life is what it is.

Maybe you have a guilty conscience about something.

Orion

quote:

ORIGINAL: sophia37

PS. Dear OrionTheWolf. With all due respect. You are a dimwit to blame all parenting skills It shows how little of the world you actually know of.



_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to sophia37)
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RE: School of Shock? What the ....... - 9/2/2007 9:33:00 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		I believe I understand it well enough, reading the six page link, and then doing some of my own research. yeah these are worst case kids usually but not all of them. If there are specifics you wish to debate, bring them out. Discussion on topics such as these can be enlightening for all.

Orion

quote:

ORIGINAL: bignipples2share

I sure hope the hot and cold therapy will work for those worst case patients. Is there a link, or place I can look this up?

~Big




_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to bignipples2share)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: School of Shock? What the ....... - 9/2/2007 9:58:41 PM   
bignipples2share


Posts: 611
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I believe I understand it well enough, reading the six page link, and then doing some of my own research. yeah these are worst case kids usually but not all of them. If there are specifics you wish to debate, bring them out. Discussion on topics such as these can be enlightening for all.

Orion



Orion, you're still not getting it. This is not about the teenager gone bad, who could have been helped with parental intervention. This is not about children to allowed to have the TV as a babysitter.This is not about some crack head that is trying to get his drug fix and attacking people. This is not about telling little Billy to stop throwing his toys down the toilet, and the parent then can watch over him to correct his behavior. This article has nothing to do with the parents not doing their jobs of parenting. At what point are you confused on this?

Are you telling me that if your child were physically and medically unable to walk that you would spank him and parent him into being able to walk?

What IS being discussed here is, these kids ARE the worst case, mentally handicapped children and the LAST STOP for these kids after a battery of psycotropic drugs and therapist and hospitals. THIS is what we are discussing here. NO other institution will have them. ALL other institutions with all their drugs and therapy have NOT been able to help them.

I don't believe it is the RIGHT last stop. I don't have an answer for these parents as to what the right last stop is. Wish I did.
~Big


< Message edited by bignipples2share -- 9/2/2007 10:09:17 PM >

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
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RE: School of Shock? What the ....... - 9/3/2007 8:05:27 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Try doing some more research. There are many that cannot be helped. There are many that could have been helped had someone bothered sooner in their lives. I agree this place is not where they need to be.

Orion

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to bignipples2share)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: School of Shock? What the ....... - 9/8/2007 9:59:55 PM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sophia37

I think it takes being beaten by or living with an out of control person year in and out, to understand why you would allow that person to be hooked up to wires. Its amazing how hard it is to get the system to help you in these cases. So this is a last resort issue.

Yes, I know there are drugs. And most people get those who are in the running. So this school is for a tiny percentage of our population. The word torture is a relative term. To the familys living with this nightmare, perhaps they are the ones being tortured. Nobody wins in some cases. Nobody wins.



sophia37 i absolutely agree with you. This isn't a case of bad parenting, this goes way deeper to perhaps brain dysfunction or chemical imbalance.  These children, under public education laws are entitled to the least restrictive education environment.  A regular ed teacher cannot handle these types of students in her classroom - it would be a 20% day instruction and 80% day trying to control crazy sally.

Orion would you want your youngster in a class with one of these kids? What do you propose we do with them - not educate them? 
You stated " I know enough to raise a couple of great kids, through some pretty difficult times, and without their Mother. I know enough to have helped my neices and nephews, because my sister lacked in parenting skills. I know enough to grow up in government assisted living, educate myself and become a business owner. I know enough to accept that life is what it is." Well that is wonderful and i am delighted for you - truly i am.  But are you saying because you were able to weather some bad experiences others should automaticaly be able to?  Have you ever seen an autistic child who is upset b ecause a routine has been modififed totally loose it and 2 adults had to restrain him so he would not hurt himself?  Have you been in classrooms where it is evident that the children have been profoundly affected by their parens drug addictions and they have great difficulty learning because theie memory has been affected and they have little self control over their impulses?  These kids are on a road to self destruction and the parents of these children are bereft and don't know what to do - many have tried different methods as well as teachers and nothing works.  What can we as a society do for these chidren - public edication laws protect their rights to an education - how do you accomplish that without putting the "normal" population at risk and interupt their learning structure with these kids constant disruptions of bad behavior?  There are no easy solutions and this is why schools like these come to fruition - no one wants to harm children but these children are already a harm to themselves and others as well.   


_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

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RE: School of Shock? What the ....... - 9/10/2007 6:24:04 PM   
LSUDomme


Posts: 32
Joined: 10/17/2005
Status: offline 		*points finger and tries to say something*

What the happy hell is this? Who came up with the idea to electro-shock those who have these disorders? Why don't they just attach people who have dementia to the electro-shock too?

*is waiting for a group to try and straighten out a gay guy with said electro-shock"

(in reply to Ravin)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: School of Shock? What the ....... - 9/10/2007 7:35:31 PM   
bignipples2share


Posts: 611
Joined: 4/19/2004
Status: offline 		I basically gave up on trying to explain it. If someone states they've read the article and still thinks it's all about parenting and can't grasp the concept of what is being discussed, then I throw my hands up in the air and move on.

Maybe you'll have better luck than I did.

Sometime ya come up against walls. Sometimes ya try to create a door in that wall. Other times you can see that even after putting a door in the wall, it's still not going to open. I'll keep checking back to see if someone can actually open the door.

~Big

(in reply to velvetears)
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RE: School of Shock? What the ....... - 12/8/2007 4:59:02 AM   
HRGreyDragon


Posts: 47
Joined: 6/2/2005
Status: offline 		The key words here are 'absolutely uncontrollable children'

While have all at one time or another seen a time when a child was uncontrollable, the crying baby on an airplane, a child throwing a fit because it couldn't get the toy it wanted in the store, I'm sure these are very tame compared to the child sent to one of these schools. But how many of us have wished that the parent would do something to shut the kid up for our peace of mind.

None of us know the full extent of families or the Childs background that are sent to such places. No we are called on to make an judgment on an article that was written to shock.

None of knows what we would do ourselves if faced with an 'absolutely uncontrollable child’ Many of us have problems with children that are controllable.

While I can not in good conscious condone cruel acts for the sake of cruelty, one has to ask just what can be done? When you done all you can reasonably do? 

Again the key words here are 'absolutely uncontrollable children'

Just my humble observation
Grey Dragon

(in reply to MistressDREAD)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: School of Shock? What the ....... - 12/8/2007 5:26:32 AM   
HRGreyDragon


Posts: 47
Joined: 6/2/2005
Status: offline 		The Author  Jennifer Gonnerman is clearly assuming to place herself within the mind of the child. Just how would she know what he had been dreaming or thinking? How much time had she spent with the family trying help this child. Or did she simply see something she didn't approve of and is taking her case to the forum of public opinion without presenting the case of the desperate parents? You would think from reading this that it was their first choice in solving a seeming simple task of making a child behave.

  This article as I stated before was clearly to shock people and to get them actively against it. It clearly didn’t cover both sides of the issue.

  Rob Santana awoke terrified. He'd had that dream again, the one where silver wires ran under his shirt and into his pants, connecting to electrodes attached to his limbs and torso. Adults armed with surveillance cameras and remote-control activators watched his every move. One press of a button, and there was no telling where the shock would hit—his arm or leg or, worse, his stomach. All Rob knew was that the pain would be intense.

For any thinking I hadn't read the Article

GD

(in reply to Ravin)
Profile   Post #: 40
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