School of Shock? What the ....... (Full Version)

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Ravin -> School of Shock? What the ....... (8/31/2007 8:21:54 PM)

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2007/09/school_of_shock.html


I just dont get it.

Sound off, folks... I'm pretty taken back by this one, but then again what people do to each other and have since the beginning of time is something else.



mefisto69 -> RE: School of Shock? What the ....... (9/1/2007 4:09:36 AM)

that's not the only place electro-shock is in use.......and btw...........frontal lobotomies are making a Big comeback in the field of 'behavior modification'



DomKen -> RE: School of Shock? What the ....... (9/1/2007 9:38:31 AM)

What the unholy mother of all fucks?!

What I want to know is what judge ok'ed the use of shock torture as punishment for a teenager? That a desperate parent might do so as a last resort is one thing but courts are supposed to take dispassionate looks at such things and rule in what is in the best interest of the child and clearly shocking a child for bad behaviour is not in the best interests of the child.



popeye1250 -> RE: School of Shock? What the ....... (9/1/2007 9:48:01 AM)

It sounds like a money-making scam to me!
And the Taxpayers are paying $220,000 per pupil per year for this shit?
They ALWAYS want to involve "The Taxpayers", don't they?



mefisto69 -> RE: School of Shock? What the ....... (9/1/2007 9:55:07 AM)

if you can wrap your head around the reality that medication does nothing for some people and that 'behavior modification' plans such as 'reward' systems are very limited in altering undesireable behaviors in most people....you'll see why the shock treatment plan is desired by some as an alternative to incarceration for the extremely emptionally troubled segment of society.
no..i don't endorse it, or agree in any way -but- we have done away with 'asylums' and NO one gets mental health care in prison.......so



popeye1250 -> RE: School of Shock? What the ....... (9/1/2007 9:57:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mefisto69

if you can wrap your head around the reality that medication does nothing for some people and that 'behavior modification' plans such as 'reward' systems are very limited in altering undesireable behaviors in most people....you'll see why the shock treatment plan is desired by some as an alternative to incarceration for the extremely emptionally troubled segment of society.
no..i don't endorse it, or agree in any way -but- we have done away with 'asylums' and NO one gets mental health care in prison.......so


Mefisto, that's all well and good but as a TAXPAYER I don't want to *PAY* for this stuff!



spiral23 -> RE: School of Shock? What the ....... (9/1/2007 10:09:55 AM)

SICK. ...



SugarMyChurro -> RE: School of Shock? What the ....... (9/1/2007 10:21:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mefisto69
...that medication does nothing for some people and that 'behavior modification' plans such as 'reward' systems are very limited in altering undesireable behaviors in most people...


Links supporting these claims please?

Operant conditioning is one of the few verifiably useful things in modern psychology.



Hekaron -> RE: School of Shock? What the ....... (9/1/2007 10:21:31 AM)

When today, exposing people to loud noises or spraying them with cold water or likewise treatments are considered torture, how can the schock treatments, as described in this and other articles, NOT be considered torture?
Some of the treatments, used in interrogation and at institutions like Abu Ghraib, seem degrading, inhumane, appalling and should not be tolerated, but do not fall in the category of 'causing intolerable pain'. Yet are considered torture when brought to court. These shocks DO seem to cause intolerable pain, so why can anyone bring in excuses for their use? Their approved use, their state-sponsored use, their use by court order.
Wow, one more reason not to put the USA on my wishlist for a place to live after patriot Act release II. Not that this could never happen in Europe though . . .

I'm in shock here,

Ron



came4U -> RE: School of Shock? What the ....... (9/1/2007 10:23:29 AM)

Anyone with second-year studies of Milgram would know that this is both unethical and illegal.



Hekaron -> RE: School of Shock? What the ....... (9/1/2007 10:30:28 AM)

Sugar,

Would this do?
JRC Program Visitation Report- 6/9/2006:
 
Ron
 
P.S. And, Sugar, torture as a method of operant conditioning might be very effective, as history teaches us on many occasions, but that does not make it any more acceptable, does it?



SugarMyChurro -> RE: School of Shock? What the ....... (9/1/2007 10:38:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hekaron
And, Sugar, torture as a method of operant conditioning might be very effective, as history teaches us on many occasions, but that does not make it any more acceptable, does it?


I am actually arguing in favor of reward systems and against punishment systems in this instance. That's what BF Skinner developed - operant conditioning based on intermittent positive reinforcement.

Mefisto69 said reward systems were of limited use and I think that's demonstrably untrue.

Do please try to follow along...

[;)]



Hekaron -> RE: School of Shock? What the ....... (9/1/2007 10:44:42 AM)

It hadn't occurred to me we were discussing reward systems here as the main topic. But then, this is a BDSM site.
I do follow, though: I even remarked the quotes around 'reward' systems, which is slightly different from reward systems for those who like irony.

Ron



Ravin -> RE: School of Shock? What the ....... (9/1/2007 10:53:19 AM)

now we are getting lifestyle issues and other conditioning issues involved or convoluted with what is going on at this bastardization of a school.



Hekaron -> RE: School of Shock? What the ....... (9/1/2007 11:21:55 AM)

The reference to the lifestyle was just a hint of dark humour I could not resist. You know: electroshocks <==> 'reward'.
Sorry won't do it again (can't get the smiley waving the white flag into the post, sorry, newbie to smilies).

But I like staying on topic like the next man. I hope the link was convincing enough to prove this was not an urban legend hyped up to serve as a money scheme. Came4U said "Anyone with second-year studies of Milgram would know that this is both unethical and illegal". I would agree that anyone with or without any education in ethics or law would know this. So my question remains: why don't judges and legislators in your beautiful country see this is illegal? They must have followed some of above forms of education, I suppose?

Ron



camille65 -> RE: School of Shock? What the ....... (9/1/2007 11:42:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ravin

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2007/09/school_of_shock.html


I just dont get it.

Sound off, folks... I'm pretty taken back by this one, but then again what people do to each other and have since the beginning of time is something else.


http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2007/09/how_a_cult_spawned_the_tough_love_teen_industry.html


This is not a scam for anyone thinking it is. Not a scam but it is seriously 'iffy' and one hell of a money maker for some.
If you lookie at the link I added, about halfway down the page is a diagram showing other 'programs'.
I was in Elan for just over 2 years from age 15-17.  To this day it is still up and running although it has tamed down quite a bit.

So I can say from experience that it IS real. And it is often paid for by the state, if not the state then either the familys insurance or plain cash.
'Duck in a Rubber Raincoat' is the fact based book on one man who created Elan and he himself had gone through Daytop. An interesting example of how abuse can create more abuse down the line.

I won't put the details here but if anyone wants to know what really happens in places like that, I have links/articles/message board info etc. Then again if I have one more beer I just may end up adding details. Jk cuz it is some nasty shite.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: School of Shock? What the ....... (9/1/2007 2:10:33 PM)

So they substitute skock therapy for a parent that should be doing the disciplining with a belt if necessary. There are consequences to life and this needs to be taught throughout a childs life, not just a couple of years and also without psychological monitoring.

Orion



velvetears -> RE: School of Shock? What the ....... (9/1/2007 4:53:23 PM)

If anyone has ever had to deal with absolutely uncontrollable children, the extremes that were sent to this school they would understand why it would be a very appealing last resort.  What do you do with a kid who is banging his head all the time and all efforts to stop him are futile?  Is medicating kids to the point of obesity a viable alternative, all they want to do is sleep, so essentially they are just avoiding the whole problem by knocking the kids out for as long as they can using "medication". 

my heart goes out to those parents, and even the teachers who had to work under those conditions. It just stinks all around.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: School of Shock? What the ....... (9/1/2007 10:34:59 PM)

You let him bang it until it hurts, just like I did with my son. You show consistant discipline, while still showing love, you actually work harder. You definately don't use the TV as a babysitter, you take more of an active role. Maybe being a single parent, and having made it through many tough times, I have littlke sympathy for people who are not good parents, and in the end their kids are the one's that suffer.

I have taken supposedly uncontrollable kids and worked with them, my sister's kids were that way. My nephew supposedly had seizures, but it was uncontrollable rage because he didn't feel love from his father, and didn't feel secure because no one set boundries for him.

What this center is doing, is something that should be done by the parents, over the entire life of the child, but many of these kids also need psychological monitoring and possibly therapy. Drugs are short term solutions to acute issues.

Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

If anyone has ever had to deal with absolutely uncontrollable children, the extremes that were sent to this school they would understand why it would be a very appealing last resort.  What do you do with a kid who is banging his head all the time and all efforts to stop him are futile?  Is medicating kids to the point of obesity a viable alternative, all they want to do is sleep, so essentially they are just avoiding the whole problem by knocking the kids out for as long as they can using "medication". 

my heart goes out to those parents, and even the teachers who had to work under those conditions. It just stinks all around.



MistressDREAD -> RE: School of Shock? What the ....... (9/1/2007 11:26:47 PM)

If only every parent was present as You Orion.
But thats not reality.
Over half of the children in the USA are latchkey.Thats half the children population thats getting no parenting and are expected to grow up to become productive members to society while spending their time watching violent tv or videos or the meaness of
the streets. Theres a school in Jamaica not far from My Home there that deals with American children in a corporal way to learn how to behave. Their parents send them there because the law of the land here doesent allow the parent to punish these
unruly children with out facing the courts. Its a very successful school that uses many forms of physical punishments for badness.
Im not surprised of this school of shock. So many kids today dont have any values, no morals, no respect or honor or cares except for self. sad really.



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