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RE: Environment or/and Self? - 8/4/2007 1:03:56 PM   
marieToo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

To what extent does your environment shape the person you are?


It does shape me to an extent;  sometimes in a good way, other times to a point where I do not like the 'shape' I am taking.  When I notice this, I bend back to who I want to be, which actually ends up changing my environment slightly even if my force is a slight one up against a larger one.

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RE: Environment or/and Self? - 8/4/2007 1:31:54 PM   
NorthernGent


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Hi Wanders,

Yeah, 'certainly answers the question. Reading between the lines, 'sounds like you're inclined to attempt to exert your will (exploring the wider world, your freedom to make choices etc). Out of interest, how much of this is a result of being from Oz i.e. the political framework shaping your ideas? or your personal drive? or something else? Without prying too much, do you think you've created your own morals and ethics, or taken on board your family's? You can, of course, tell me to mind my own :-)


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RE: Environment or/and Self? - 8/4/2007 2:54:19 PM   
NorthernGent


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'Definitely addresses the question, Chey. I can relate to the 18 kids. As a rule, Middle Class children have far better foundations to achieve than Working Class children, which they can't grasp as adults because they haven't been brought up in an environment of unemployment/low income, alcoholism, single parent families, a lack of attention, and a lack of a work ethic being instilled. Fortunately, my parents weren't like that, but I was brought up in an area with the highest rate of unemployment in the country, and went to school with children whose homes were a nightmare. These children had more pressing issues than concentrating on studying. It's no coincidence that the schools with the lowest grades are housed in the areas with the highest unemployment, as it breeds alcoholism and a lack of personal pride and ethics (within parents, which is passed down to their children). Obviously, the Middle Class/Working class distinction is a rule, rather than applying across the board.

My strong opinion is that where a person is provided with adequate opportunity i.e. at least one loving parent, and at least some value placed on personal ethics, then there's no excuse for not taking the opportunities to thrive that are available in the West, barring some profound change that has a dramatic effect on the conscience, but, as you say, some children are simply set up to fail and a life of under-achievement.

I know what you mean by "probably never stop". I left University with a Modern History degree, and decided to study for an industry accountant qualification which took me another 4 years of hard studying while in a job of 50/60 hours a week. After 4 years of that, I thought bollocks to all that...time to relax, but it doesn't taken long to start thinking about more learning/another string to the bow/keeping one step ahead of the game etc....within 8 months I'd enrolled for something else. It's hard to fathom, sometimes, but there's so many factors that go towards producing that sort of work ethic...even religious morals play a part, for example, such as Calvinism and Luther (may seem a tenuous link, particularly as I couldn't give a flying one whether or not there's a god, but there's sense in it). 

I agree the environment has a major impact.....from the political framework to the climate. An interesting question for me is how much a person exerts his/her will on nature's matter and society's morals......do we create our own ethics/morals or do we take on board the norm? If we think that the very foundations from which we ask questions and discuss answers are bound by the conceptual framework set by a select group of thinkers, then the flow of ideas and the huge influence of a tiny minority of people on the rest of society become apparent.....the English Liberal thinkers of the 18th century, the romanticists across Europe who advocated exerting themselves on society rather than being bound by society's morals (which today seems obvious, but it was a breathtaking concept 250 years ago). Machiavelli, Aristotle, Christian morality etc...all of these shape the conceptual framework in which we think. Without the guidance of these people, we would be viewing our place in the world in a completely different manner, and acting accordingly.

I won't attempt to pass opinions on your submission, with the exception of saying I'm sure it's appreciated :-)

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RE: Environment or/and Self? - 8/4/2007 3:24:31 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

To what extent does your environment shape the person you are?


It does shape me to an extent;  sometimes in a good way, other times to a point where I do not like the 'shape' I am taking.  When I notice this, I bend back to who I want to be, which actually ends up changing my environment slightly even if my force is a slight one up against a larger one.


I'm half thinking, should I attempt to pull off the weakest joke since prince charles stood at the end of a corridor at buckingham palace with his dick out pretending to be a door and say "how long has the environment been cock slang de rigour over there?", but, as it's bordering on war crimes against comedy, and not in the spirit of the your post, let's not.

Any examples of your environment/shaping/bending at work, Marie?

'Not sure about your sig, by the way, where's/who's the abitrator making sure everyone gets their just desserts?

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RE: Environment or/and Self? - 8/4/2007 3:27:30 PM   
kittinSol


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It's obvious you've at least glanced at Max Weber.

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RE: Environment or/and Self? - 8/4/2007 3:44:39 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It's obvious you've at least glanced at Max Weber.



Protestant work ethic?

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RE: Environment or/and Self? - 8/4/2007 6:30:52 PM   
marieToo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

I'm half thinking, should I attempt to pull off the weakest joke since prince charles stood at the end of a corridor at buckingham palace with his dick out pretending to be a door and say "how long has the environment been cock slang de rigour over there?", but, as it's bordering on war crimes against comedy, and not in the spirit of the your post, let's not.


Your humor went over my head, Ng, but not before giving me a wave of nausea at the thought of Prince Charles' dick.

quote:

Any examples of your environment/shaping/bending at work, Marie?


Yes, I could give an example or a possible analogy to explain my original statement,  but I'm sure that I'm looking at 'environment' in a completely different context than your meaning here.  I understand where you are coming from now, but didn't in your OP.

quote:

'Not sure about your sig, by the way, where's/who's the abitrator making sure everyone gets their just desserts?


No arbitrator.  Just universal law at work. It just means that you get out what you put in.  I believe it's a biblical quote, but not sure.  I should probably put it in italics.


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RE: Environment or/and Self? - 8/5/2007 1:16:07 AM   
wandersalone


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Yeah, 'certainly answers the question. Reading between the lines, 'sounds like you're inclined to attempt to exert your will (exploring the wider world, your freedom to make choices etc). Out of interest, how much of this is a result of being from Oz i.e. the political framework shaping your ideas? or your personal drive? or something else? Without prying too much, do you think you've created your own morals and ethics, or taken on board your family's? You can, of course, tell me to mind my own
:-)


Hmmm once again there isn’t a short answer however I will try to summarise my thoughts… I do feel that the Aussie ‘have a go’ attitude is an inherent part of me and this was also encouraged by the people around me, family, teachers, employers and so forth.  I grew up in a very small country town here where the difference between the haves and the have-nots was very obvious and I feel that this fuelled my interest in social justice and advocating for people who were unable to do this for themselves. I was one of the ‘haves’ and felt uncomfortable with the reality that this gave me so much more choice and opportunity in my life.

In regards to my moral/ethical compass – the concept of non-duality which I briefly mentioned in my first post on this topic really guides me.  I feel that there is no separation of ‘I’ and everything else and that what I do will impact upon other people, other places, the environment etc similar to a ripple effect so I work on a ‘do no harm’ model where I can.  Yes, it is quite different from the belief system of my family – I do not think that they liked me removing god from the equation. ;)

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RE: Environment or/and Self? - 8/5/2007 1:46:30 AM   
chey


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NorthernGent, I am not filled with facts and figures, simply my opinions. Whether or not we create our own ethics/morals is relative to each one of us. I would bet that answer to be as broad and diverse as the group reading this thread. Consider that it could also be a little of both, creating our own AND taking on a bit of the norm. Some people may be aware of how easily we can simply take on mainstream thinking and so they choose to think for themselves instead. Maybe sometimes the topic is just not that important to an individual and so they lean toward popular thinking because it is easier.

I agree with you that there have been groups of people who have changed the conceptual framework of our thinking. There always will be I imagine. There are probably also people out there who consciously work to form their own ideals but it would be naive to think our beliefs were not shaped by something regardless of what we think that something is. Just my opinion.

Thank you btw.....as long as it is appreciated by someone someday I'll be happy!

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RE: Environment or/and Self? - 8/5/2007 3:25:49 AM   
NorthernGent


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'Sounds very much like Christian morals (in my mind) i.e. work hard and do as would be done to (particularly Protestant morals which laid the foundations for English government and exported to other parts of the world). 'Not saying you haven't created your own personal ethics, 'can only speak for myself, and I'm fairly sure it would be difficult to attempt to not live by these morals. Add to the aforementioned the 19th century European romanticist philosophy of "do it for yourself, without the need for divine intervention", and Western thought is pretty much underpinned by a framework of a few core ideas from a select group of thinkers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: wandersalone

In regards to my moral/ethical compass – the concept of non-duality which I briefly mentioned in my first post on this topic really guides me.  I feel that there is no separation of ‘I’ and everything else and that what I do will impact upon other people, other places, the environment etc similar to a ripple effect so I work on a ‘do no harm’ model where I can.  Yes, it is quite different from the belief system of my family – I do not think that they liked me removing god from the equation. ;)


I agree with the impact point, Wanders, but not convinced with the separation. 'Difficult not to "do no harm", however, as there are so many competing stakeholders in the environment. It's fair to say it's a sound philosophy, though.

'Know what you mean about god.......'think I stopped praying when I was about 11, just came to me one day "what am I doing, here?...no more of that carry on".

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 8/5/2007 3:26:42 AM >


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RE: Environment or/and Self? - 8/5/2007 3:36:32 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chey

creating our own AND taking on a bit of the norm. 



Agreed, Chey, and I'll add that there must be varying degrees of creating personal ethics.

'Then there is the climate and natural resources which shape a nation's wealth, opportunity and, ultimately, ideas

quote:

ORIGINAL: chey

Thank you btw.....as long as it is appreciated by someone someday I'll be happy!



No problem. 'Sounds like there are a fair few children appreciating it.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Environment or/and Self? - 8/5/2007 3:40:01 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

No arbitrator.  Just universal law at work. It just means that you get out what you put in.  I believe it's a biblical quote, but not sure.  I should probably put it in italics.



I wouldn't have had you down for the universal law/bible type, but I suppose there's something to be said here for prejudging people.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Environment or/and Self? - 8/5/2007 7:23:17 AM   
marieToo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

No arbitrator.  Just universal law at work. It just means that you get out what you put in.  I believe it's a biblical quote, but not sure.  I should probably put it in italics.



I wouldn't have had you down for the universal law/bible type, but I suppose there's something to be said here for prejudging people.


Hmmm....well....Im defininately a universal law type.  But I'm not the "bible type".  However, I have, from time to time, found some wisdom therein.

Can we get back to the cock in our environment?

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RE: Environment or/and Self? - 8/5/2007 9:15:25 AM   
chey


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Agreed, Chey, and I'll add that there must be varying degrees of creating personal ethics.

'Then there is the climate and natural resources which shape a nation's wealth, opportunity and, ultimately, ideas


I would agree with the varying degrees. There are some things that I was raised with and either that way of thinking has become habit or just imbedded into who I am. There are other things that as I mature I cannot wrap my mind around. At my very core they just do not make sense to me. (for you that would have been praying.)  So you created your own way of thinking, different from how you may have been brought up.

< Message edited by chey -- 8/5/2007 9:16:38 AM >

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RE: Environment or/and Self? - 8/5/2007 2:00:56 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

Can we get back to the cock in our environment?



A good catholic girl like you, Marie?.....here? of all places?....

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RE: Environment or/and Self? - 8/5/2007 2:06:33 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chey

There are other things that as I mature I cannot wrap my mind around. At my very core they just do not make sense to me.



Sounds reasonable. Sometimes, though, the answers just aren't available. Beyond reading, learning, chatting, thinking, I wouldn't get too uptight about resolving the issues (not that I'm assuming you are). 

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RE: Environment or/and Self? - 8/5/2007 4:02:44 PM   
chey


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I don't get uptight about too much! I do tend to overthink things at times though. But I'm mostly a pretty laid back girl!

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RE: Environment or/and Self? - 8/5/2007 4:32:34 PM   
domiguy


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Aside from some sort of serious trauma in your upbringing I'm not a huge fan of  environment having a tremendous effect on a person.....Parenting is a factor....But there are other more important factors....Genetics...I personally believe you are about 50 -60% done the moment you slide out of the womb....Then there is the "peer group" which probably provides more influence on an individual at a younger age then parenting.....So you got genetics 50-60% ...Peer group 20-30% parenting15-25%.....I am the product of my dna, my friends and my parents.....And my undying quest for the perfect pussy. 

I am sort of a modern day knight.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 8/5/2007 4:34:49 PM >


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RE: Environment or/and Self? - 8/5/2007 5:25:52 PM   
marieToo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

Can we get back to the cock in our environment?



A good catholic girl like you, Marie?.....here? of all places?....




Forgive me Father,  for I have sinned...

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RE: Environment or/and Self? - 8/5/2007 5:34:51 PM   
chey


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lol.....you know Domiguy, I can't believe that after the couple of weeks I have been reading the forums that your comments still catch me offguard.

Have you come close in this quest to finding the perfect pussy?

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