Giving References

Giving References (Full Version)

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lapresence -> Giving References (6/7/2007 10:49:45 AM)
I have always been told that references were important. However, since the Dom basically has to supply the list of play partners, who in their right mind would give someone a bad reference? I mean, come on now. For instance, I was just released. I would have been more than happy to give the man a glowing reference, tempered of course, by what I considered his faults. Now I inadvertently was contacted by a sub he had 2 years ago to possibly play with her and her Master. My Dom came up; it turns out he was her first Dom, and she had a horrible experience. She still suffers from the damage he caused her. I don’t believe her to be lying because the damage relates to what I have observed to be his biggest faults. Neglect and lack of emotional support was the catalyst for the action I took that resulted in my release. If I were to give a reference for this man in the future, I wouldn’t feel comfortable sharing what I didn’t observe first hand, but followed to an extreme, his fault could wreck havoc with another person. I’m not sure what the correct course of action would be here. Any advice?

KatyLied -> RE: Giving References (6/7/2007 10:52:10 AM)
Tell people you are not able to provide a reference. Leave it at that. You don't owe anyone information/explanations about your relationship.

mistoferin -> RE: Giving References (6/7/2007 10:54:26 AM)
I would tell them that I was not comfortable giving a positive reference for this person. That's honest. You don't have to share details.

MissHarlet -> RE: Giving References (6/7/2007 10:55:45 AM)
I can see why this is a dilema for you. It would be for me also. You might say you prefer not to give references on anyone. You might also be comfortable giving your reference and saying that you are not sure that all of his former submissives had the same experience you had. Lots of ways to handle it. Do what is comfortable for yourself for as was stated above.. you owe no one any response unless you choose to give it.

mrbob726 -> RE: Giving References (6/7/2007 10:57:57 AM)
In business, managers are often asked about former employees. Most businesses have a rule that you can only confirm or deny that the person worked there. I think you should give your former Dom the same sort of privacy. (A Dom should follow the same regarding former subs.)

earthycouple -> RE: Giving References (6/7/2007 11:03:10 AM)
So when do we start giving references in our vanilla relationships? I have LOTS to tell the girls that date my exhusband..... Really....can a reference be of any use if the party asking doesn't know the party telling? I could be worse than the sub I'm giving reference for, no? I would give a reference only for someone who is in service to me as a choreboy. Anything beyond that...it's no one's business how our relationship worked or failed.

velvetears -> RE: Giving References (6/7/2007 11:05:26 AM)
i would go back and tell the dom - don't use me as a reference because i will have to tell the truth - let him figure it out, but you warned him and solved your problem. i think the reference thing is a bit over the top. Who is to say the one giving the reference is stable, rational, sane, etc - do you get references for the references?? lol

imthatacheyouhav -> RE: Giving References (6/7/2007 11:06:59 AM)
If i had 1st hand knowledge of a person that was harmful or abusive, and someone asked me about that person....while i wouldn't give the gory details...but i would certainly caution the person who asked me. I think to not do that would be neglectful on my part. *just my take on it.

darkinshadows -> RE: Giving References (6/7/2007 11:09:05 AM)
I personally see no point in written references. A person is only going to ask someone who can give a good reference anyway. Peace

mistoferin -> RE: Giving References (6/7/2007 11:19:49 AM)
When people are asking me for "my" references, I generally don't give them a contact name but rather tell them that I am known in this, this and this group. Feel free to ask anyone associated with those groups.

MasterFireMaam -> RE: Giving References (6/7/2007 11:22:20 AM)
How you react and handle his faults is different from how someone else will. You are not responsible for reporting how anyone else reacted to him, positive or negative. You are really only qualified to relate your own experience. Be truthful. If he doesn't like it, he can start to look at those areas and work on them. Master Fire

littlesarbonn -> RE: Giving References (6/7/2007 11:24:32 AM)
I've always kind of laughed at the idea of giving references because some of the women I've served in the past were outright nuts. Others were great. But honestly, I'm not sure I'd want to include anyone's name in a reference for me. I kind of think of it as I'd still be with that person if she was going to give me a glowing reference.

AAkasha -> RE: Giving References (6/7/2007 11:30:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlesarbonn I've always kind of laughed at the idea of giving references because some of the women I've served in the past were outright nuts. Others were great. But honestly, I'm not sure I'd want to include anyone's name in a reference for me. I kind of think of it as I'd still be with that person if she was going to give me a glowing reference. If they were nuts, why were you in a relationship with them anyway? That would be a red flag for some women, because they would wonder if you served women who were nuts but chose to ignore it, or they just "became" nuts after the break up and it's because of bad blood. Sure, in high school or at younger ages there's a lot of animosity in relationships that fail but I think most people, as they get older, end relationships mutually or at least, after some time, can reflect on why it was just not working but still have respect for the other person. If someone is continually in relationships with people who are unbalanced, that puts the person's judgment into question. Akasha

meesekite -> RE: Giving References (6/7/2007 11:30:29 AM)
Hi... Im not seeing a problem. Speak of YOUR experiences, and yours alone. Why spread heresay, which is what youd be doing to say another's experience? YOU werent there, you have no way to verify what she said as true...it may ring true to you, but you didnt experience their dynamic. And, her perceptions may be far different than his intent, or the reality. Extreme example, my case. Glenn Marcus, good friend of mine, was convicted recently of sex trafficking and forced labor. If I was asked to provide him a reference, it would be glowingly positive, as he has never done anything bad or nonconsensual to me.

Archer -> RE: Giving References (6/7/2007 11:33:53 AM)
The thing about references is that you have to think about how to use them as well as how to give them. The flaw of only giving names of folks you know will give a good reference is avoided by getting a second level reference. Mr.X gives you Ms Q as a reference, OK So who are Q's freinds who might have another viewpoint of how Mr. X is as a Dominant? Since they have no loyalty issues to color their evaluation. Also you are correct in the ethical stance that you shouldn't give reference to things you did not witness first hand. (in my estimation) However you could feel free to expand the list of names the person talks to about Mr.X. Something like this " I was with Mr X and we didnt work out for whatever reasons. I know he was also with Ms. Formersub a few years back have you spoken with her yet? Detailed fault lists will often backfire, so many folks simply do as some here suggest and say I can't give you a good reference for Mr. X. Bad Breakups often yield horridly embellished bad references, other times a person will give a good reference when it's not deserved based on not wanting to rock the local community boat and thus limit their potential future in that group. I'm more likely to give weight to references from folks who have less interest in the outcome.

Archer -> RE: Giving References (6/7/2007 11:39:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin When people are asking me for "my" references, I generally don't give them a contact name but rather tell them that I am known in this, this and this group. Feel free to ask anyone associated with those groups. YAY I'm not the only one who doesn't do the specific name thing, LOL. Which is why I mentioned the OK they gave me Ms Q's name who does Q hang out with and what do they think of Mr. X? BTW glowing references are not the be all end all of checking someone out. They don't tell you everything, only what that person thinks about Mr. X.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Giving References (6/7/2007 11:40:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin When people are asking me for "my" references, I generally don't give them a contact name but rather tell them that I am known in this, this and this group. Feel free to ask anyone associated with those groups. That's pretty much my bent as well. Specially since I moved to Austin last year and didn't know anyone. No one verifiable could be a reference anyway. A reference is only so good as how well you can judge the reference itself. http://www.collarchat.com/m_728809/mpage_4/key_reference/tm.htm#730243 references http://www.collarchat.com/m_234183/mpage_1/key_reference/tm.htm#234184 references (2)

DiurnalVampire -> RE: Giving References (6/7/2007 11:40:59 AM)
If you cannot give a positive reference, the say so. If you do not wish to speak poorly of someone, then simply decline to give a reference at all. I ahve been asked fro references about former boys who have served with me. I have declined, positive or negative, because how I related to someone should not color how someone else does. I dont care what my pets have learned before me, or how well they did under someone elses direction, and I dont want others to base their fit on how someone may have been with me. Thats just my personal preference. I would never give someone a name of a playmate to ask about me. If the former playmate was released, its like rubbing salt in a sound if they didnt want to leave. And if they did, chances are it was not on good terms. Either situation, I dont want them contacted DV

LadyHugs -> RE: Giving References (6/7/2007 11:41:07 AM)
Dear lapresence, Ladies and Gentlemen; References in the scene may be a real two edge sword in more ways than one. The private behaviors of individuals are not often the same as those in public. I have heard some surprising tales of known scene people that made me wonder outloud until I met them in person and broke bread with them as well; in more private settings. Public, people seemingly will be on their best behavior. That said, it really is a difficult position to be in. Negative reviews or references of a public figure in the scene, could be considered "sour grapes." Yet, when there is a pattern of behavior, one must start wondering what really is the case behind the privacy doors. I do belive the 'scene' has reached the point where the truth is over shadowed because it is not politically correct and or safe, as there has been reprisals in such cases so--fear often mutes the voices of negative references. And, yes --we do have people who are just nasty enough to sling mud on innocent people. Reputations are like references. They are earned over time. It is known, that nobody will have the perfect match all the time. Each person must attempt to match up with the best partner for them at the time. Hopefully, it will have a long time together. However, there are times to move on. Life's lessons are about moving on and take the experiences as life's lessons. I'm sure there will be those who like me or not like me. If I attempted to analyze everybody, their spirit of intent, their agendas, mental health and or political leanings; I would forget about living for my sake. Only person I can control is myself. Giving references is not a free license to trust or distrust. It boils down to adults making their gut instincts honored or not. That said, I would pay very close attention to what those who are around me say about someone. I profit from the 'heads up" by friends who circulate in circles that shield the foes. Even so, there is no 'fool proof' way in finding out about a person through references. With people physically there to provide references--great but, when it comes to the Internet and services; people are known to have multiple screen names and may use such for giving out false references. Therefore, references via Internet are not held high. Only those who I know real time, so I respect and listen to if any references are proffered. Just some thoughts. Respectfully submitted for consideration, Lady Hugs

CreativeDominant -> RE: Giving References (6/7/2007 11:44:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lapresence I have always been told that references were important. However, since the Dom basically has to supply the list of play partners, who in their right mind would give someone a bad reference? I mean, come on now. For instance, I was just released. I would have been more than happy to give the man a glowing reference, tempered of course, by what I considered his faults. Now I inadvertently was contacted by a sub he had 2 years ago to possibly play with her and her Master. My Dom came up; it turns out he was her first Dom, and she had a horrible experience. She still suffers from the damage he caused her. I don’t believe her to be lying because the damage relates to what I have observed to be his biggest faults. Neglect and lack of emotional support was the catalyst for the action I took that resulted in my release. If I were to give a reference for this man in the future, I wouldn’t feel comfortable sharing what I didn’t observe first hand, but followed to an extreme, his fault could wreck havoc with another person. I’m not sure what the correct course of action would be here. Any advice? You know, the whole reference thing kind of bugs me. I am what I consider to be a decent man and a decent dominant. I am what I consider to be a good BDSM play partner. However, were you to ask my last submissive, she might tell you that I was not understanding because I didn't "get it" when, after three years of talking about her relocating, she decided she just couldn't do it now that her job had stabilized. The fact that I stuck by and supported her during serious surgery might not come into play nor the fact that she was in contact with her former dominant and moved in with him soon after she ended her submission to me. Would she be a fair reference? Though I have played casually, the levels of play have varied. If you are an extreme player in your own head only but state to me that you are extreme and I give you a reference to a submissive who really gets off on extreme play and describes in detail what a great job I did with her and you end up shocked thinking I am sick and the girl I played with is nuts...was it a good idea to give her name to you? I am not saying it can't work. I am sure it can...but I do know that I have had a couple of instances where I wondered... if the person who I was with had given me references, would they necessarily have been honest references? I guess that is one reason why I do a lot of talking and observation of my own.

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