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Seduction and limits - 5/6/2007 9:59:57 AM   
ICGsteve


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
Status: offline 		If you are Dom how far would you be willing to take seduction in order to test limits? If you are sub when does seduction become abusive manipulation?

My own view is so long as the Dom believes they are in tune with the sub, and so long as they believe that where they want to take the relationship will be good for the relationship, then all seduction is fair.
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RE: Seduction and limits - 5/6/2007 10:23:17 AM   
spanklette


Posts: 882
Joined: 2/22/2005
Status: offline 		No seduction at all will take me past my hard limits.
 
My Daddy is a seductive Man. Small things, big things...He's just that way. But, no amount of seduction would push me past hard limits...He might poke around my soft limits, but He doesn't need seduction to do that.
 
By the way, I don't think seduction equals deception, which is what it seems like you're angling at. Seduction, to me, doesn't even equal distraction. So, I'm not sure I answered your question.

_____________________________

~spanklette~

"The important thing is this: to be able at any moment to sacrifice what we are for what we could become. " Charles du Bois

"Please don't shout, can't you see I'm not listening." Billie Myers

(in reply to ICGsteve)
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RE: Seduction and limits - 5/6/2007 10:54:01 AM   
ICGsteve


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: spanklette


By the way, I don't think seduction equals deception, which is what it seems like you're angling at. Seduction, to me, doesn't even equal distraction. So, I'm not sure I answered your question.


It sounds like you are starting from seductiveness = attractiveness and then saying that seduction = attraction. My  def on seduction is "the purposeful use of psychological tools to attempt to steer another in the direction you want them to go". I make a  distinction between seduction for personal gain, which to me is abuse, and seduction for the good of the relationship, which I think is fair. I am taking the old saw that "all is fair in love" literally. Even if love is not involved I think that psychological power can be part of the power exchange, and I am asking subs if they would consent to a relationship   were  the power exchange agreement would allow their Dom to use seduction on them, and asking Doms if they would agree to accept this responsibility, and how far both would consent to seduction.  

(in reply to spanklette)
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RE: Seduction and limits - 5/6/2007 2:39:28 PM   
velvetears


Posts: 2933
Joined: 6/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ICGsteve

My  def on seduction is "the purposeful use of psychological tools to attempt to steer another in the direction you want them to go".


That sounds like the definition of manipulation to me.  Seduction is making yourself appealing to someone in the effort to get them to be attracted to you all the way through to maybe even having sex with you, not in in one seduction moment necessarily lol.  In seduction you wouldn't just use psychological tools you would use your body or sexuality as a tool as well. You could use your body, voice, touch etc as a tool, but the goal would be sexual in nature. 

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Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

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RE: Seduction and limits - 5/6/2007 2:39:52 PM   
spanklette


Posts: 882
Joined: 2/22/2005
Status: offline 		No, I didn't start from a place where I thought seduction=attraction. I know what seduction means, although, thank you for the definition...I'm sure it will come in handy for some others. And, I meant what I said.
 
I see where you're going, I just think seduction doesn't have to automatically test or push limits.
 
Personally, our D/s is a psychological construct anyway and seduction plays its part. He seduces my fears and dances with my desires...but this is all a psychological, if not romantic construct.
 
So, in answer to your question. No, even if I agreed to such a situation...even a snake charmer couldn't push me past my pre-arranged limits.
 
And your definition,"the purposeful use of psychological tools to attempt to steer another in the direction you want them to go" is very broad considering the circumstances of Dominance and submission. Isn't that what it's all about anyway?

< Message edited by spanklette -- 5/6/2007 2:53:09 PM >

_____________________________

~spanklette~

"The important thing is this: to be able at any moment to sacrifice what we are for what we could become. " Charles du Bois

"Please don't shout, can't you see I'm not listening." Billie Myers

(in reply to ICGsteve)
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RE: Seduction and limits - 5/6/2007 4:22:27 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		It depends on why the limit exists.  If it's a newbie sub who is scared of their own shadow and just put everything in the "no way" list- then their own curiousity and time alone will likely cast a great many of those to the side.  I've no problem using some teasing and seduction along the way to speed up that process to a certain extent.

If someone has a limit on having a child- I really don't think seduction is appropriate as a way to see if this is something to try and eliminate.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to spanklette)
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RE: Seduction and limits - 5/6/2007 4:50:05 PM   
aldompdx


Posts: 538
Joined: 10/24/2004
Status: offline 		I find that one who is well established in their surrender does not need to be "seduced" into sharing who they already are. One who is firmly established in their control, mastery, or dominance, need only to directly and honestly express their intention. They need not indirectly "seduce" or manipulate another, in order to conceal their expression of control.

This raises the question of psychological manipulation. By definition, it is one's intentional manipulation of another's subconscious response. Because the response is subconscious, it cannot be consensual. One cannot set a limit on subconscious material, about which they simply do not know. Thus, it is highly susceptible to abuse. Psychological manipulation, including the "seducement" to which you refer, is incompatible with SSC and RAC tenets of BDSM. GOT IT?

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Seduction and limits - 5/6/2007 5:51:23 PM   
ICGsteve


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aldompdx

Psychological manipulation, including the "seducement" to which you refer, is incompatible with SSC and RAC tenets of BDSM. GOT IT?


Considering that all of BDSM is psychologically tranformative Psychological manipulation is in fact nothing other than using BDSM with purpose. Whether you want to admit it or not most practitioners of BDSM engage in psychological manipulation. The fact that SSC and RAC want to wish this away or ignore it  is yet a proof that those doctrines conflict with reality. They are means to support the illusion of control of a process that no one has control of because no one fully understands what is going on in their BDSM experience as they are experiencing it. SSC and RAC are irrelevant in regards to this question because they try to claim that what is a mystical experience is in fact comprehended by the brain. These doctrines flow from a demonstratively false premise.

A person who wants to abide by either SSC or RAC is free to do so, but when they try to make it an authority that all must obey then it is time to tune out.

(in reply to aldompdx)
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RE: Seduction and limits - 5/6/2007 6:29:03 PM   
soulfulkitten


Posts: 27
Joined: 1/9/2005
Status: offline 		Hmmm,  seduction is wonderful and great.  BUT, I know that if in a consensual BDSM relationship, that I lose the ability to say no, even more so than in my regular day to day life.

I have to know and trust that as a submissive my limits will be respected, even while i"m in the most vulnerable of places.  Otherwise I won't go there.  Once that submissive relationship has been stretched to slave, all bets are off of course.

(in reply to ICGsteve)
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RE: Seduction and limits - 5/6/2007 6:52:43 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

  If you are sub when does seduction become abusive manipulation? 


I have been in a situation where, despite the fact my hard limits had been discussed and agreed to, the dominant attempted to ‘seduce’ (or was that induce) a change. He repeated his attempts several times.  I saw it as unfair, ham-handed manipulation and could not trust him.  So I left.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to ICGsteve)
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RE: Seduction and limits - 5/6/2007 6:55:19 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		S

< Message edited by SimplyMichael -- 5/6/2007 7:11:52 PM >

(in reply to soulfulkitten)
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RE: Seduction and limits - 5/6/2007 7:13:04 PM   
ICGsteve


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: soulfulkitten


I have to know and trust that as a submissive my limits will be respected, even while i"m in the most vulnerable of places.  Otherwise I won't go there.  Once that submissive relationship has been stretched to slave, all bets are off of course.


"Respect but test" normally means to take a sub right up to the outer limits of what they have preagreed to, and try to get them to agree to more. Seduction kicks in when the Dom tries to make where  he thinks you need to go  you seem appealing to you so that you will agree to go there. My question presupposes that the Dom will respect limits, what is at question is the Doms freedom to use seduction to try to get you to change those limits.

(in reply to soulfulkitten)
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RE: Seduction and limits - 5/6/2007 7:27:17 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Okay, in other threads you sound quite sane and speak of learning to deal with your masculine and dominant sides with a wife who has issues but is also exploring her submissive side.  You do so in a way that sounds utterly reasonable.

Here you are speaking of manipulating someone past their limits in a way that makes my skin crawl. 

What's the deal?

(in reply to ICGsteve)
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RE: Seduction and limits - 5/6/2007 8:40:19 PM   
ICGsteve


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Okay, in other threads you sound quite sane and speak of learning to deal with your masculine and dominant sides with a wife who has issues but is also exploring her submissive side.  You do so in a way that sounds utterly reasonable.

Here you are speaking of manipulating someone past their limits in a way that makes my skin crawl. 

What's the deal?



I believe it is the nature of the question. Very many people have a fond feeling for   seduction so long as it is left a fuzzy romantic notion, but once we explore what seduction is we quickly find that it is a morally disgusting manipulation of others. Thing is relationship is always about the push and the pull between the individuals, if it is alive. Once it dies the two quickly drift apart and then go their own ways. Those who swear off stretching their mates   doom themselves to passionless dead relationships, and most people figure this out sometime in their lives.

The concept of seduction is an affront to many of our deepest held beliefs about who we are as individuals. We refuse to delve into seduction because we can not stand what it does to our ideals, so we stay purposefully ignorant. This however also means that we are left defenseless against those who use seduction on us, be they sexual predators, politicians, corporate leaders, ....... Most people are also very clumsy in their use of seduction, which is a large part of the reason that modern relationships are so unfullfilling, passionless, and so short lived.  

Power games are infinitely complex and operate at many levels at the same time. Seduction (psychological manipulation) is just one of many facets of the game. Most people will swear up and down that they don't psychologically manipulate their mates, and I would say that almost all, if not all, do but are not self aware enough to know that they do. Most people even believe that they don't play power games at all, which is ridiculous. We start playing power games at a very early age, and we never stop.  It is currently OK to admitt to power games in sports and in the office, but in reality we play this game in all of our relationships.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
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RE: Seduction and limits - 5/6/2007 11:14:24 PM   
MasterNdorei


Posts: 658
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ICGsteve
If you are sub when does seduction become abusive manipulation?


Everytime if i'm lucky.

Master's dorei

(in reply to ICGsteve)
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RE: Seduction and limits - 5/7/2007 3:15:12 AM   
aldompdx


Posts: 538
Joined: 10/24/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ICGsteve

quote:

ORIGINAL: aldompdx

Psychological manipulation, including the "seducement" to which you refer, is incompatible with SSC and RAC tenets of BDSM. GOT IT?


Considering that all of BDSM is psychologically tranformative Psychological manipulation is in fact nothing other than using BDSM with purpose. Whether you want to admit it or not most practitioners of BDSM engage in psychological manipulation. The fact that SSC and RAC want to wish this away or ignore it  is yet a proof that those doctrines conflict with reality. They are means to support the illusion of control of a process that no one has control of because no one fully understands what is going on in their BDSM experience as they are experiencing it. SSC and RAC are irrelevant in regards to this question because they try to claim that what is a mystical experience is in fact comprehended by the brain. These doctrines flow from a demonstratively false premise.

A person who wants to abide by either SSC or RAC is free to do so, but when they try to make it an authority that all must obey then it is time to tune out.


I do agree with you that "most practitioners of BDSM engage in psychological manipulation." And your points correctly flow therefrom.

I contend that there is a difference between transformation and manipulation. That is the degree of conscious awareness by both partners. Transformation is consensual each step of the way, because, if you lack awareness of where you have arived, then you have not yet transformed. I disagree that "no one fully understands what is going on in their BDSM experience as they are experiencing it." (Applying a reasonable test to "fully," otherwise it requires godly omniscience). While a mystical experience may not be understood by the analytical mind, it is perceived and remembered by the brain. Otherwise, one could never know they had it.

One can give to, receive from, share with, and support another without being psychologically manipulative. It is about compassion and caring -- reflecting one's own love -- instead of chasing it in another.


(in reply to ICGsteve)
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RE: Seduction and limits - 5/7/2007 4:42:11 AM   
ICGsteve


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
Status: offline 		I suspect that in a low level power exchange that the sub consents to neither transformation or manipulation. Subs contract with Doms for a particular service. As we move into higher levels of power exchange however I think that most subs consent to manipulation. Slaves like what their masters do to them, even though they often have no clue how their master does what they do, or even sometimes why they like it. Slaves realize that they are being transformed, and consent to that, but may or may not realize that they are being manipulated.

Seduction is a spell, and once the target becomes aware of the process the spell is broken. Seduction can not consciously be consented to. It is however unconsciously consented to because a a person who is being seduced and who likes it will go to great lengths to remain willfully ignorant of the seduction.

Consent is the holy grail in BDSM as it must be, but consent is not at all cut and dried. A superficial look into seduction makes this clear. Like any contract consent is open to wide interpretations.

(in reply to aldompdx)
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RE: Seduction and limits - 5/7/2007 9:23:54 AM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline 		seduction has no place in our dynamic. as has been said, seduction is a manipulation, and i have no idea how manipulation fits into a D/s relationship. my Master does not need to seduce me into anything, he simply demands.

(in reply to ICGsteve)
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RE: Seduction and limits - 5/7/2007 11:36:13 AM   
BossyShoeBitch


Posts: 3931
Joined: 1/13/2007
From: South Florida
Status: offline 		Honestly, if it were me, I would have to know limit by limit what you were trying to get past and deal with it on a case by case basis..

Personally, I find it all very erotic...
But then again, I have been told I am extremely depraved..

::edited to say "YAY I'm twisted!  I got 2 handcuffs!!"

< Message edited by BossyShoeBitch -- 5/7/2007 11:37:15 AM >

_____________________________

A clever man can get out of situations a wise man never gets into...
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.

(in reply to ICGsteve)
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RE: Seduction and limits - 5/7/2007 1:20:33 PM   
LdyCougar


Posts: 11
Status: offline 		It really is a moot question.

A person does not know his/her own true limits until tried. Things thought of as limits may only be mental blocks and resistances ( no, not stubbornness or insubordination - rather lack of experience and social indoctrination).

Real limits do exist. Common sense ones ( and these DO get pushed sometimes for well though often nought) physical limitations, limitations of the top, laws of gravity ;)

To me, my mind, these distinctions successfully made and actions taken are where true mastery is found.


(in reply to BossyShoeBitch)
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