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RE: Seduction and limits - 5/7/2007 2:09:43 PM   
ICGsteve


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LdyCougar

It really is a moot question.

A person does not know his/her own true limits until tried. Things thought of as limits may only be mental blocks and resistances ( no, not stubbornness or insubordination - rather lack of experience and social indoctrination).



The point is certainly not moot if Doms will not test limits, or if subs will not allow their stated limits to be tested. I read you to say that it is the doms responsibility to test the limits, and if that is what you mean then  I agree, but does that include the use of seduction? Are all of the tools in the toolbox available for use in the attempt to move the sub forwards???

(in reply to LdyCougar)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Seduction and limits - 5/7/2007 2:15:38 PM   
ICGsteve


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BossyShoeBitch

Honestly, if it were me, I would have to know limit by limit what you were trying to get past and deal with it on a case by case basis..

Personally, I find it all very erotic...
But then again, I have been told I am extremely depraved..

::edited to say "YAY I'm twisted!  I got 2 handcuffs!!"


That makes sense if the Dom is for hire, but if we are talking about a relationship then why does only the sub have a say in the matter? What a sub needs, what they want, what they think they want, and what they say they want, are all different things. Going by what they say they want is the least reliable guideline. I pay attention to what my wife says she wants, but I don't give that any more weight in my determination that it deserves. If I choose badly and she does not respond well to what I have done then I have a huge problem, but what she says that she wants rarely is the right thing to do.

< Message edited by ICGsteve -- 5/7/2007 2:17:31 PM >

(in reply to BossyShoeBitch)
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RE: Seduction and limits - 5/7/2007 3:43:26 PM   
TigressFL


Posts: 239
Joined: 6/8/2006
Status: offline 		I cannot say that I actually use seduction. What I do use is exposure and education. More times then not I have found that if I expose someone to a certain type of play by having them watch it being done and then I actually take the to educate them (in detail) they will ultimately beg me for it.

_____________________________

Live your own truth, Life is short

(in reply to ICGsteve)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Seduction and limits - 5/7/2007 3:51:26 PM   
ICGsteve


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TigressFL

I cannot say that I actually use seduction. What I do use is exposure and education. More times then not I have found that if I expose someone to a certain type of play by having them watch it being done and then I actually take the to educate them (in detail) they will ultimately beg me for it.


You may make yourself benevolent and call it "education" all you want, but this is a common  form of seduction. It is one of the prime tools of child abusers. I am not calling you an abuser, I use this technique myself. It works.

(in reply to TigressFL)
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RE: Seduction and limits - 5/7/2007 4:14:38 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Somehow, I'm not making the connection in this.  Perhaps it is because I am looking too much at the abstract, rather than the black and white.  Is the question geared toward the seduction of sex appeal?  Perhaps the seduction of pain?  Maybe the seduction of emotional gratification?  If any and all of the above apply, then in a sense, it would seem that all positive interactions are a form of manipulation.
 
Also, I need to be a bit clearer on what types of 'limits' you are focusing on.  I'm of the mind that there are not only strict, hard limits, but soft limits as well.  Limits aren't all about yes or no.  Maybe, sometimes, could be, might want to are also acceptable answers.  How else would you consider exploring these areas without pushing limits to some extent?  If there is nothing in this area, where is the growth?  I agree with Tigress' definition of learning to describe some situations. 

(in reply to ICGsteve)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Seduction and limits - 5/7/2007 4:21:30 PM   
ICGsteve


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
Status: offline 		I am talking about the Dom using seduction to drive the sub out of their comfort zone, out of what has already been agreed to. I am talking about the question of whether to Dom has the right to use all forms of their power,  both overt and subvert, to drive the BDSM experience and/or the relationship forwards.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Seduction and limits - 5/7/2007 4:23:42 PM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline 		All's fair in love and war.

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.


(in reply to ICGsteve)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Seduction and limits - 5/7/2007 4:26:57 PM   
ICGsteve


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
Status: offline 		I agree, and if you look back you will see that this  is one of my guiding principles.

(in reply to LotusSong)
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RE: Seduction and limits - 5/7/2007 4:31:51 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		In that case, aren't soft limits also taking a sub out of their comfort zone?

(in reply to ICGsteve)
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RE: Seduction and limits - 5/7/2007 4:41:31 PM   
ICGsteve


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

In that case, aren't soft limits also taking a sub out of their comfort zone?


Sure, and if the Dom is smart they will knock down a few of the soft limits before they attack a hard limit. It is all in the timing. I don't want to give the impression that a Dom should always be hard charging, there is a time to attack and a time to rest. A Dom MUST know their sub very well before they attempt advanced seduction. The sub will in that case often be so overwhelmed that someone took the time and the care to know them that even if the seduction becomes clear and the sub does not approve  the sub will be completely compliant.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Seduction and limits - 5/7/2007 4:41:57 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

seduction has no place in our dynamic. as has been said, seduction is a manipulation, and i have no idea how manipulation fits into a D/s relationship. my Master does not need to seduce me into anything, he simply demands.


i agree with this, seduction can be used as in " Will you do this for Me" being whispered in the ear. If it is used to push you yet keep within agreed limits then fine. If it is used to take you past agreed limits then its abuse. If a Domme/Dom just wants to push boundaries then a simple command should suffice.

edited for spelling

< Message edited by Politesub53 -- 5/7/2007 4:43:43 PM >

(in reply to daddysprop247)
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RE: Seduction and limits - 5/7/2007 4:48:37 PM   
ICGsteve


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

If a Domme/Dom just wants to push boundaries then a simple command should suffice.



No, because the OP stipulates that we are talking about the Dom taking the relationship or the scene outside of what the sub has consciously consented to. A Dom should never go beyond consent, for obvious reasons. We are talking about moving the subs level of consent so that the Dom can do what they believe must be done.

You are talking about asking the sub for permission, which is all fine and good so long as the sub says yes. I am talking about how doms get subs to say yes. If the Dom is not very sure that the answer will be yes then they are not ready to ask the question. They have not been properly executed seduction, and they will lose power each time that the answer is no.

< Message edited by ICGsteve -- 5/7/2007 4:56:11 PM >

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Seduction and limits - 5/7/2007 4:55:04 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ICGsteve

If you are sub when does seduction become abusive manipulation?



No disrespect but this is what i was answering, or trying to. I still think seduction used to push boundaries and soft limits is fine. To push past hard limits is not.

(in reply to ICGsteve)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Seduction and limits - 5/7/2007 4:59:50 PM   
surelyujest71


Posts: 48
Joined: 4/28/2007
Status: offline 		Obviously I'm new.  But I do feel I understand the question and the responses fairly well.  Let's attempt to refine the definition of the question being asked a bit more.

In the "Vanilla" realm, seduction might involve dinner and a movie, and perhaps a few drinks.  If the girl being "seduced" has a hard limit on the date of "no sex," then it seems likely to me that there will be no sex.  However, if the person taking her out gets her too drunk to know what's going on, takes her home while she's insensible, and screws her while she's so drunk she won't even remember it the next day... that's rape, and totally wrong.  Also (of course), it's no longer seduction at that point.

Seduction is a way for people to test, and perhaps even surpass, a soft limit.  If the above girl was willing to have sex with someone who showed her a really good time, but not with someone who wasn't willing to make an effort, that could be said to be a soft limit, yes?  A good seduction would then result in consensual sex.

Breaking past a hard limit is not likely to occur through seduction.  If it does, then the limit wasn't hard after all, but turned out to be a fairly strong soft limit.  Seduction won't break a person.  Even hypnosis cannot force a person to do something that qualifies as a true "hard limit."  Like, say, suicide.  Or removing their own arm with a chainsaw.

Are we perhaps talking about when seduction ends, and brainwashing begins?

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Seduction and limits - 5/7/2007 5:03:42 PM   
ICGsteve


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

No disrespect but this is what i was answering, or trying to. I still think seduction used to push boundaries and soft limits is fine. To push past hard limits is not.


There is nothing wrong with this. However with no one pushing against the hard limits they will stand for a very long time. Ceilings on potential don't work for me if there is not some reasonable hope of removing them.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Seduction and limits - 5/7/2007 5:09:13 PM   
ICGsteve


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: surelyujest71


Breaking past a hard limit is not likely to occur through seduction.  If it does, then the limit wasn't hard after all, but turned out to be a fairly strong soft limit.  Seduction won't break a person.  Even hypnosis cannot force a person to do something that qualifies as a true "hard limit."  Like, say, suicide.  Or removing their own arm with a chainsaw.



As has already been pointed out, often what is stated as a hard limit is not a hard limit. If the Dom is to take the stated hard limit as fact before finding  out if it really is a hard limit they are in  my opinion lazy Dominants.

Seduction and brainwashing are the same thing, in different degrees. However, not liking this human dynamic does not make it less real, or make it go away.

< Message edited by ICGsteve -- 5/7/2007 5:10:18 PM >

(in reply to surelyujest71)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Seduction and limits - 5/7/2007 5:11:06 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Yes i agree that what starts as a hard limit may over time become a soft limit, and even acceptable.

(in reply to ICGsteve)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Seduction and limits - 5/7/2007 5:22:09 PM   
TigressFL


Posts: 239
Joined: 6/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ICGsteve

I am talking about the Dom using seduction to drive the sub out of their comfort zone, out of what has already been agreed to. I am talking about the question of whether to Dom has the right to use all forms of their power, both overt and subvert, to drive the BDSM experience and/or the relationship forwards.



The problem here is the agreeing part. I will not agree to not expose them, educate and even push them into an area that I enjoy. They know exactly what they are signing up for from the start and it if it is not something they can handle then they have the choice to not be in a relationship with me without issue.

I also do not agree that I am being benevolent or trying to seduce anyone because they know the deal from the start and they have to make the decision to surrender to me and totally agree to that reality or not. I am not out to manipulate anyone I simply know what I need and what I desire and if they cannot handle that then I am not the one for them, plain and simple (and that is OK). It is a compatibility issue for me. In addition, just because they know that one day they will have to face (whatever it is) does not mean that I just shove it down their throat without any regard for them. On the contrary, that is where exposure, education and patience comes in.


_____________________________

Live your own truth, Life is short

(in reply to ICGsteve)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Seduction and limits - 5/7/2007 5:31:14 PM   
ICGsteve


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
Status: offline 		surelyujest71 brings up a good point: People can never be seduced into something that they don't want to be seduced into. Same goes for brain washing. Those who were part of the Jim Jones cult for instance were willing participants in their brain washing and deaths. The consent is never conscious or overt, which is why current BDSM doctrine does not recognize it, but it is real. The effectiveness of seduction is determined by the intended victim. However, in modern society seduction is fabulously effective, as most people have no idea that it is real.

titleAndStar(1,0,0,false,"","")

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Seduction and limits - 5/7/2007 5:40:06 PM   
ICGsteve


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
Status: offline 		'Play my way or leave" is probably the most common seduction tool of Doms. Once you know they need  you then it is time to play this card. You force them to choose between internal change or the pain of losing you. Very effective.

(in reply to TigressFL)
Profile   Post #: 40
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