Excess Population? What to do? (Full Version)

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LadyEllen -> Excess Population? What to do? (4/24/2007 3:14:06 AM)

Are there now simply too many people in the world?

Human pollution of the environment is now more or less certainly contributing to epic global climate change - not just our industries, vehicles and other energy use, but the livestock we keep and even ourselves producing vast quantities of greenhouse gases.

Fresh water is becoming ever more in short supply all over the world, under the pressure of human population. Add climate change that may see a further reduction in supply in many places, and war for water may replace any war for oil.

Overcrowded living conditions are producing a miserable life for many people. The economy, whichever way it is set up, leaves a significant number worldwide and even in developed countries, well behind and living in poverty. There just isnt enough to go round, it would seem.

Everywhere that the natural world remains is under threat - flora and fauna are being destroyed to produce ever more food or income to live, for humans.

And all the time, we continue to increase in population, continue to pollute, continue to destroy and continue to produce misery and poverty for billions, whilst we remove the natural balance provided by illness and disease that might otherwise hold back the whole process.

Do we do something about it? If so, what?

There are groups like the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement www.vhemt.org which advocate us ceasing to reproduce and so reduce our numbers, although of course its likely that only the best and brightest who understand the issues and arguments who are going to subscribe to such a philosophy. This is then clearly counterproductive in that we would as a species be left with those unable to so understand, continuing the process of population expansion with no understanding and so no concern whatever for the consequences.

Genocidal rampages are out of the question. I dont believe we have it in us - most of us anyway, to behave in such a manner. There is also the question of who does the dying, as well as the killing, and on what grounds this division is discerned - purely on a subjective basis if we are to hold that all human life is equally valuable.

We also value freedom - despite that our freedom has brought us to such a juncture perhaps. We cannot prevent people attempting to mate, nor control the mating process to limit offspring to any particular couple, given that we promote individual freedom and responsibility. Even the authoritarian Chinese administration could not limit offspring to a single child per couple, so what hope would we have, especially when in our case, additional offspring often brings additional social benefit payments?

We also have to bear in mind that our western countries are in general declining in population - which is why so many immigrant workers are required. The global population growth is arising from third world and developing countries, which is most often also where the danger to the natural world, the threat to adequate fresh water supply, the most polluting industry and the most miserable living conditions are also to be found. Any solution, should we believe we have a problem, must be applied to these areas of the world it would seem, rather than to our own. Given our own demographic issues, we can of course import many migrant workers, but we cannot possibly take up the exponentially increasing excess populations of these other countries.

Do we have a problem?
What are the solutions, given we have a problem?

E




julietsierra -> RE: Excess Population? What to do? (4/24/2007 3:23:21 AM)

Ok.. I have two words for the possible solution to this dilemma...

SOYLENT GREEN

(ewww)

juliet




Pulpsmack -> RE: Excess Population? What to do? (4/24/2007 3:43:33 AM)

I wouldn't worry too much about it. Either we can wake up and choose sensible methods for regulation, or we can simply differ to Mother Nature. Trust me, she'll take care of the problem.




meatcleaver -> RE: Excess Population? What to do? (4/24/2007 4:00:41 AM)

Poverty causes excess birth rate. Solve poverty.




MyMasterStephen -> RE: Excess Population? What to do? (4/24/2007 4:18:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

We also have to bear in mind that our western countries are in general declining in population




Umm...  Are they?




LadyEllen -> RE: Excess Population? What to do? (4/24/2007 4:21:12 AM)

How though, do we solve poverty?

Even here in the west, even in the most wealth distributive societies of the west, there are people living in squalor, because they cant compete in a market economy - whilst a mile up the road are people with so much they dont know what to do with it. Communism meanwhile tends not to produce enough wealth for anyone to live well, because it tends to take away from the innate selfish human drive to acquire for oneself and one's own.

The way things seem, there is not enough to go round in a world of finite resources- of which the west seemingly takes more than its fair share admittedly. The goal has to be to achieve a decent standard of living for all, which is impossible with finite resources and such a huge population by comparison. For each to receive a fair share of those finite resources would mean a drop in our western standard of living - to which the world aspires too, which would be wholly unacceptable given our selfish innate human drive to acquire.

And alongside that, once we were all reduced to year zero - the issue becomes that those who are more able to compete (whatever the system that is imposed) will begin again to acquire wealth and power such that by year fifty or so, we could easily find ourselves back where we started anyway.

The way it looks then, is that being selfish humans and being in all circumstances highly competitive, it is inevitable that some will acquire and some will not. This is after all, how we got here in the first place.

Thinking the unthinkable, is it the case that if we need to limit our population, then we must look towards population management solutions which specifically violate our notions of all human life being equally valuable? That is, that the less able to compete must give way to those more so able, in order that sufficient resources are available to those who remain? This is a mechanism currently enforced by the market so we dont have to feel personally responsible for it - but this is what is happening when small African children, (for example) are dying for want of the food we throw away, and also what is happening when the mentally ill in our own society are thrown out to fend for themselves, being no longer of use to society.

E




MyMasterStephen -> RE: Excess Population? What to do? (4/24/2007 4:23:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Poverty causes excess birth rate. Solve poverty.



Excess birth rate causes poverty.  Reduce birth rate.




LadyEllen -> RE: Excess Population? What to do? (4/24/2007 4:24:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MyMasterStephen

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

We also have to bear in mind that our western countries are in general declining in population



Umm...  Are they?


So we are told, yes. We have aging populations and a low birth rate - both functions of a high cost of living which means that wives must work full time as a husband's salary alone cannot support that cost.

We must have immigration, so we are told, to ensure that there are sufficient tax paying workers to support our aging population in their retirement, given that in their reproductive years they did not have the time or resources to produce sufficient offspring for the purpose.

E




MyMasterStephen -> RE: Excess Population? What to do? (4/24/2007 4:43:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: MyMasterStephen

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

We also have to bear in mind that our western countries are in general declining in population



Umm...  Are they?


So we are told, yes. We have aging populations and a low birth rate - both functions of a high cost of living which means that wives must work full time as a husband's salary alone cannot support that cost.

We must have immigration, so we are told, to ensure that there are sufficient tax paying workers to support our aging population in their retirement, given that in their reproductive years they did not have the time or resources to produce sufficient offspring for the purpose.

E



Well, certainly the population of the UK is projected to keep growing until 2070 and beyond.




aviinterra -> RE: Excess Population? What to do? (4/24/2007 4:49:52 AM)

We will finish ourselves off, no need to worry. Everything has a limit, including human reproduction. There are only so many humans that can come out before our DNA is so bad that we as a whole end up on the extinction list. And then there will be something else taking over the planet, and according to a zoology professor I once had- it will be insects. We are just a wink in the uncountable life span of the world around us, and one that will be forgotten quickly.




LadyEllen -> RE: Excess Population? What to do? (4/24/2007 4:51:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MyMasterStephen


Well, certainly the population of the UK is projected to keep growing until 2070 and beyond.


By indigenous means? Or by immigration?

If the indigenous population is set to grow, then why do we need immigration at all?

If the population is set to grow by immigration because we need immigration, then it would suggest that the indigenous population is in decline.

E




farglebargle -> RE: Excess Population? What to do? (4/24/2007 5:28:07 AM)

Get rid of the Nanny State.

On the job deaths used to regularly clean out the really stupid ones from the gene pool.

Alas, those days are gone.

THANKS OSHA!





Rule -> RE: Excess Population? What to do? (4/24/2007 5:38:21 AM)

There are those among us who are driven by an innate urge to control and to kill ordinary humans and by an obsessive greed and need to be served. Those are the people that are in charge - but they lack both wisdom and compassion.
 
Thus there have always been the poor and there will always be the poor.
 
Yes, there is an excess population. The galactic civilization is not amused by this mess - nor by our rulers - and threatens global annihilation.
 
No, we do not need immigrant workers. Our rulers, driven by greed, need them.
 
Yet it is only our rulers that are able to enforce a voluntary reduction of the population by birth control. Unfortunately they lack the wisdom and compassion to do this in a pleasant and effective way. In fact any way they try to achieve a reduction of the population has proven to be counterproductive. Even in China they will fail - especially since China is at the start of an economic high.
 
The poor are among the most important people of humanity. They have the best motive to grow spiritually. They are humanity. They are the part of the population that is subject to the harshest natural selection, hence the evolution of the human species is driven by and dependent upon them.




LadyEllen -> RE: Excess Population? What to do? (4/24/2007 5:42:50 AM)

Fargle - isnt it rather the situation now though, that the "stupid" cannot find a job, cannot compete in our society and therefore represent excess population, supported only by those who can compete and pay taxes and/or by criminal undertakings to support themselves which damage the whole?

The question really is, in a finite resource pool which is competed over vigorously - in this instance, jobs to gain income, can we continue to support those who are not competitive, or let them go fend for themselves or perhaps opt for a more radical solution, when their need for resources detracts from our own?

Applying this to our own societies, a change from the current situation of social benefit payments et al would see these people die; either by starvation/ disease/ exposure or in the physical attempt to obtain resources through violence. "They would all get jobs if there were no social benefit payments" hardly works, when qualified and experienced people are out of work.

Applying it on a global scale it would mean leaving billions to suffer the same fate. Assuming we are overpopulated and must do something about it, do we have the balls to actively do that, (rather than passively through the market), considering its a competitive situation and its us or them? This isnt a question of whether we have the right to do it of course - its purely about whether we could or should.

E





pahunkboy -> RE: Excess Population? What to do? (4/24/2007 5:57:19 AM)

famine-disease- catasterphes-war; something always thinns out the population everey so many years.

the catholic church wont permit contracewption.

sciene/teck will save us.

experets perdict we have a  50% chance of seeing 2100.

what can we do?  random acts of kindness. build desieation plants.

stop buying stuff- that you have too much of- on a credti card.   send a bag of unwanted stuff  to a friend- who will pass it to a frind and so on-taken or contributing as bag travels.

always always- throw a pie in a CEOS face!




Rule -> RE: Excess Population? What to do? (4/24/2007 6:18:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
isnt it rather the situation now though, that the "stupid" cannot find a job, cannot compete in our society and therefore represent excess population, supported only by those who can compete and pay taxes and/or by criminal undertakings to support themselves which damage the whole?

can we continue to support those who are not competitive, or let them go fend for themselves or perhaps opt for a more radical solution, when their need for resources detracts from our own?

I am one of those people. I have not had a job nor an income in more than three years. In this time I have earned a couple of hundred euro's. Nevertheless I do not recognize anyone to have superior ability in what I do best. Compared to my superior mind all other humans are at the intellectual equivalent of animals.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
The question really is, in a finite resource pool

The resources are infinite.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
by criminal undertakings to support themselves which damage the whole?

There is purpose to all crime. Robin Hood was a criminal.




subrob1967 -> RE: Excess Population? What to do? (4/24/2007 6:20:45 AM)

Excess population? Are you kidding me?

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/worldpop.html

quote:

We share the planet with 5.7 billion people. If one could stand all the people in the world, men, women and children two feet apart, how much of the world would they take up? All of Africa? All of North America? New York state? If every person alive today stood two feet apart they would fill less than the area of Dallas County! And there would still be room for all the buildings! If the world's people were put together into families of four living on 50' by 100' lots, they could all live in the state of Texas, with more than seven thousand square miles left over. So the total number of people is not the real problem, at least at this point. 


Over population isn't the problem, it's only a talking point for the rabid left, and their pet theory, "global climate change".




meatcleaver -> RE: Excess Population? What to do? (4/24/2007 6:23:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MyMasterStephen

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Poverty causes excess birth rate. Solve poverty.



Excess birth rate causes poverty.  Reduce birth rate.


Wealthy nations on the whole have low birth rates because people don't have to depend on their children in their old age. Because of high infant morrtality in poor countries people tend to have more children as an insurance that some will survive to look after their aging parents.

Solution. Wealthy countries should stop exploiting poor countries and help them develop, that will also help wealthy nations in an increasing fight for resources.




meatcleaver -> RE: Excess Population? What to do? (4/24/2007 6:26:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Excess population? Are you kidding me?

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/worldpop.html

quote:

We share the planet with 5.7 billion people. If one could stand all the people in the world, men, women and children two feet apart, how much of the world would they take up? All of Africa? All of North America? New York state? If every person alive today stood two feet apart they would fill less than the area of Dallas County! And there would still be room for all the buildings! If the world's people were put together into families of four living on 50' by 100' lots, they could all live in the state of Texas, with more than seven thousand square miles left over. So the total number of people is not the real problem, at least at this point. 


Over population isn't the problem, it's only a talking point for the rabid left, and their pet theory, "global climate change".


You still have to feed and clothe them and no doubt there aren't many Texans willing to give up their cars etc.[;)]

For everyone in the world to live like the average America, the human needs five planets of resources and we haven't even started colonizin g Mars yet!




petdave -> RE: Excess Population? What to do? (4/24/2007 6:27:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aviinterra
There are only so many humans that can come out before our DNA is so bad that we as a whole end up on the extinction list.


What basis do you have for that statement? Logically, the theory of evolution/natural selection makes a lot more sense.

quote:


We are just a wink in the uncountable life span of the world around us, and one that will be forgotten quickly.


Not to mention, the universe around us. No better way to put the human race in perspective than a few good classes on geology and astronomy (assuming you believe in that sort of thing)

There are a few ways to look at the population "problem":

Any biological system is essentially self-correcting. Most likely, a "superbug" will develop in one of the increasingly overpopulated and unsanitary urban areas, and clean house, so to speak. The areas of Africa suffering from the worst population and starvation problems are also being ravaged by AIDS, Malaria, and dozens of other diseases that we take for granted in the West.

Resource scarcity is essentially a political problem- as long as there are adequate resources to support some level of population (and if there isn't, the question is moot), the issue is always going to be "who gets it". The answer, of course, is "the most fit". Communist systems are fantastic at creating scarcity- reference Venezuela's food shortages, Mao's "Great Leap Forward", the history of privation in the former Soviet Union.

If our tool-using nature creates the problem, by way of changing the ecology., then tool using may solve the problem as well- by more efficient utilization of resources, or eventually by sterilization (back to politics. A more humane form of population control, but much more complicated and expensive than crushing a infant girl's skull under your boot).

What is interesting in the West is that we're deliberately breaking natural selection. The most productive members of society are too busy working to reproduce, while the least productive have little else to do, and are rewarded for it by the .gov. Meanwhile, we become a "nanny state", or "Nerf culture", creating law after law to make society as "safe" as possible for those who lack common sense, intelligence, or work ethic.

As a population as a whole becomes more financially successful, it does tend to become less prolific (modern-day Japan is a good example of this). Immigration then fills in, and on the plus side, that does bring back a level of natural selection by rewarding those with the initiative and work ethic required to emigrate.

Overpopulation is only really a big deal if you look at human life as inherently more valuable than anything else. Otherwise, it's just more boring science [8D] To paraphrase George Carlin- "Save the planet? Fuck the planet! Mother Earth will just shake us off like a bad case of fleas!"

...dave




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