RE: Honor among D’s (Full Version)

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MasterFireMaam -> RE: Honor among D’s (4/10/2007 6:40:57 PM)

I'd like to share something that fits with this topic. Many people can find a "submissive Creed" online that dictates how (specifically sister) submissive are to treat each other. The Fem Dom group I helped found, since we are a support group for Female Dominants, decided to set down on paper a Dominant's Creed. This is how we treat each other in our group. (I'm going to have to post it, then reformat it, so if you're reading and it looks like crap, give me a minute or two). It'd be nice if these things were universal.
-----

(FAD) Dominant Creed and Dominant Scene Etiquette  
As a Female Dominant of FAD, I promise to treat my fellow Female Dominants within our Sisterhood with respect and practice honesty, integrity and tolerance within FAD. I will do my best to follow proper scene protocol and will always follow the Safe, Sane and Consensual credo.  

Respect – In this organization and in the leather community as a whole respect between Sisters should be an assumption, a norm, to be given freely no matter race, age, sexual orientation/preference, lifestyle orientation, religion, etc. Even if you choose to no longer respect a Sister on a personal basis, you should still conduct yourself in such a manner as to be respectful of Her kink, Her property and Her opinions and the right to have them.  

Honesty – In this organization and leather community honesty should be the preferred choice of demeanor. Lies and deceit are best left outside FAD. And, if you make a mistake, or find yourself in bad situation where you didn’t do quite the right thing, it is never too late to own up to it and apologize. People will respect you for that.  Most of all, don’t lie about your intentions, skill, expertise or experience…someone’s safety, FAD’s safety, even your own, might be at risk.  

Integrity – In this organization and leather community backstabbing and pettiness do not lend themselves to camaraderie and empowerment; therefore, don’t practice them here. We all make mistakes and all know that it takes a bigger Woman to own up to them than to avoid them. Apologize for wrong doings, intentional or not. Make your word mean something. If you promise someone you’ll do something, follow through. If it winds up that you can’t do this, show the respect that we talked about, let someone know, contact the one you can’t follow through with. They may be a little miffed, but they won’t be nearly as disappointed or disillusioned as if you hadn’t let them know at all, and you’ll still maintain their respect. 

Tolerance – We have often heard the phrase “Your kink is not my kink”, but what does it really mean? It means that we must learn to be tolerant of people who have different wants, needs and desires other than our own. We must also try to remember that when people speak, they are speaking from their own unique perspective. Be respectful of others and most likely, they will be respectful of you.  

Scene Etiquette – Because of the immense diversity of Women, we have decided to adopt our own FAD rules for scene etiquette. We realize these lie on the conservative side, but better safe than sorry in the long run.  In the end, we apply similar rules to the Ds/Ms lifestyle as we would expect from decent people in the vanilla dating scene. You wouldn’t try to “hook up” with someone else’s date, right?

1. subs that attend a meeting, demo, social or other FAD function with a Dominant are considered their property for the entire duration of the event, collared or not.

2. Don’t touch a submissive without permission of said submissive and/or their owning Dominant.

3. If the submissive is wearing a House Collar, you MUST ask one of the Protectors about play BEFORE asking the submissive.

4. If you would like to play with a claimed submissive at a function, ask permission of the owning Dominant BEFORE speaking with the submissive.If you find that you hit it off with a claimed submissive and want to get to know them better, talk to the owning Dominant before pursing more after-function play. While the submissive may not be collared, the Dominant may be pursuing a relationship.



Lashra -> RE: Honor among D’s (4/10/2007 7:05:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiseCracknSadist

To me Doms and subs are just people. So I treat them as such. As a Dom I do not show a higher level of respect to another Dom I treat them as equals. On the flip side I treat subs as equals because they're not mine so I have no right to demand anything. Respect me and get it in turn.

However there are those who think they rule the world and we all should ask for each breath we take. Thus they think no matter who you are or what your standings are that you should bow to their greatness. We call these people dilluted. Then again there are those who love to be treated that way. So it's another case of the varying degrees of personalities.

Personally I'm a believer in the golden rule. Treat others as you want to be treated. Atleast until you have agreed upon the terms of your relationship.

This is exactly how I feel about it. I treat people as I want to be treated. But if they cross that line well then I am a redhead with a bad temper....

~Lashra



Padriag -> RE: Honor among D’s (4/10/2007 7:55:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twicehappy2x

This particular thread was on the Gorean board but did not involve a slave but a non Gorean Domme, one who is highly respected and much beloved on these boards.
 
Since the thread on the Gorean board was one asking why those here who are not Gorean are not it is to be expected that a lot of non Goreans would post. Yet this Dom corrected this Domme like he was speaking to a Gorean slave girl.

Okay, let me see if I understand this right.  Bear in mind I don't visit the Gorean forum because... well... I'm not Gorean.  You're saying someone went to the Gorean forum and started a thread asking people why they are NOT Gorean?  Isn't that a bit like going to oh... I dunno... a NASCAR races and asking random people there why they are NOT NASCAR fans?  I would think if you want to know why some people aren't interested in Gor, the best place to ask would NOT be a Gorean forum.  Maybe the reason this Domme got spoken to harshly had more to do with the question being perceived as another attempt to provoke Goreans on their own turf.   If that was in fact the case, then whoever it was (the Domme) shouldn't have been surprised by the response.

Here's a thought, if you aren't a Gorean... leave'em the fuck alone!  Geez people, I'm the first to say I don't much care for Gor, but live an let live... if they ain't pissing in your pond, stay the hell out of theirs.



SimplyMichael -> RE: Honor among D’s (4/10/2007 8:07:55 PM)

Trolls heart is in the right place.  However, I agree with those who say we are all just people.  I give a nod to courtesy and treat people in the scene with a reasonable amount of respect.  As for Doms dating Dommes or vice versa.  We are people and while I would never EXPECT a Domme to find me hot even if she made me drool, if I found her following me around or sneaking peaks, I would very likely throw her over my shoulder and drag her off.  I think that it hapens the reverse quite often as well.  A number of pro-dommes I know see a LOT of male doms who can't risk "submitting" in public and so they pay to do so in private.

Sometimes we really ARE perverts...



patina -> RE: Honor among D’s (4/10/2007 11:39:23 PM)

Does anyone no matter what position they hold or where they are have the right to try and persuade others to believe in their way of thinking just because of who or what they are?   Is that not considered a lot of times a religous persecution?  The old saying "when in Rome do as the Romans do" to me still stand.  You do not go to someones house attack their ways then be surprised when asked to leave. 

I get very tired of so called Doms messaging me asking me to send me pic of my tits or wanting to know my bra size.  It is like they think just because they say I am a Dom i am supposed to drop to my knees and say what is your pleasure Sir.  It is like the only thing the Dom's think with and about is what hangs between their leggs.

I had put in a lot of scartistic comments about them and other doms telling me how to behave but i took a few deep breaths instead.  There is bad reaction's from everyone in all walks of life.  We just have to learn how to deal with it  and move on.  Sometimes we laugh at it, sometimes we cry, sometimes we yell in anger.  What is most important is we learn from it.  I hope i have

patina

edited to say that for some reason the Dom's who post are not like that, I wonder why?  that would be a good discussion.



DocTSH -> RE: Honor among D’s (4/11/2007 2:22:11 AM)

There is only Honor percieved, and anyones perception is their reality.



Lady Alaria -> RE: Honor among D’s (4/11/2007 4:03:11 AM)

Honor?

Hmm...Interesting question. Seems to be a very subjective notion.

As to the questions at hand...stealing a sub? This sort of thing has always boggled my mind. If a mate of yours can be stolen, s/he wasn't ever yours to begin with. You were just spending some time with them. While my personal code of honor would keep me from using deceit or subterfuge in the process of 'stealing' a sub(favored methods it seems), my prime reasoning for not playing with someone who 'belonged' to someone else would be a lack of interest in someone with so little value to their own word. If someone stole a sub of mine, I'd probably be far more annoyed with my sub than the 'thief'. I don't know for certain though, as nothing remotely like it has ever happened.

As to Dom/mes trying to show one another their 'inner sub'.... well, so long as that's done respectfully, it doesn't seem dishonorable to me. The moment one acts all super macho and 'git on yer knees bitch' to -anyone- who hasn't consented though... well, I don't see it as dishonorable still. Stupid, disrespectful, sometimes irritating, but not dishonorable.

As to the Gorean board...well, any woman, especially any Domme, going in there is taking her chances. It's got a 'protected' status, and is specifically for those who agree with the philosophies of Gor. The fact that these philosophies are incredibly offensive to some does create the occasional difficulty over there. Which, in my opinion, seems reasonable. If I started a sub-board based on white-supremacist philosophies I might get the occasional rude visitor as well. But they handle themselves well, seem generally polite to visitors who are also polite, and open to philosophical debate(well, some). Live and let live, the folk over in that corner seem to be enjoying themselves and not hurting anyone(too much [;)]).




Twicehappy2x -> RE: Honor among D’s (4/11/2007 4:43:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hawkwolf7


I am of the opinion that any Non Gorean on a Gorean forum should expect that most of the "locals" will treat them according to their own value system... not theirs... not mine. And it is simply a fact that respect, and who deserves it, is a sub-cultural value. Different cultures have different rules.


Perhaps i should have noted that this same Gorean poster used the same denigrating tone/type of response to Gorean males on this same thread. The reason i did not is answered a bit lower down here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

You're saying someone went to the Gorean forum and started a thread asking people why they are NOT Gorean?   I would think if you want to know why some people aren't interested in Gor, the best place to ask would NOT be a Gorean forum.  Maybe the reason this Domme got spoken to harshly had more to do with the question being perceived as another attempt to provoke Goreans on their own turf.  Here's a thought, if you aren't a Gorean... leave'em the fuck alone! 


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyIce

I have been wondering why non goreans frequently post and almost appear to be trying
to change the goreans in their own forums.
I am not sure what they are trying to accomplish by doing that.
Maybe we will eventually find that out also.


To start with the Domme and Doms involved did not start the thread. They were simply posting to it.
 
Next the thread was on a Gorean board asking folks why they were not Gorean for a very specific purpose. See below;
 
"Sometimes, looking at something upside down makes you see different things.  I am just hoping this might bring about an interesting discourse among the Goreans and nons who post here. "
 
Nothing so nefarious as an open invitation to slam Gor or an attempt to change their ways.
 
Lot's of non Goreans post questions and answers on the Gorean boards just as lots of Goreans post to the rest of the boards. It is a learning experience for all.
 
The majority of the Goreans respect posters who post on their boards community status not with standing. I often read the threads there, i have a few friends who are Gorean. They understand neither i nor my owners are and do not attempt to apply their values to me though. And we offer them the same respect. One of my all time favorite posters was Gorean, IronBear, he played well with everyone, no matter their beliefs 
 
And the question Troll raised is still a good one. It is about respect. Respecting each other as people, having some personal integrity.
 
Whether or not your sub/slave can be tempted away was not the issue, the issue was the lack of respect being shown by trying. Whether it was a Gorean posting or not was not the issue, it was about showing respect to another poster. And since this particular poster replied to other folks both male and female in the same manner i feel safe saying it was not due to the sex of the particular poster i mentioned in the first place.
 
But knowing Troll like i do i assumed (right or wrong, feel free to yell at me in caps if ya want to Loki) that that was most likely the incident that set him to thinking. Of course at that point he would have added  the male posters as well. One thing i know about Troll is he loves and respects women, free, sub, slave, top, domme, does not matter, he adores us all and is there fore most likely to be sent into a train of thought if there is a female involved. Why do you think women flock to him after all?
 
MasterFireMaam, that was a great code you posted, thank you for sharing. It is similar to those usually adhered to by most groups i know of. 




LadyPact -> RE: Honor among D’s (4/11/2007 6:48:01 AM)

I guess I'm going to have to go back and read that particular thread.  Just for clarification, yes, I posted on it, and no, I'm not Gorean.  Originally, I had thought it to be similar to another thread, that talked about building bridges (an excellent thread started by FukinTroll), so I had wanted to see if the idea was continuing.

As I stated on both of those topics, it is very hard to apply a form of character, either positive or negative, to a catagory of people.  Honor is amongst these.  So are honesty, respect, and a host of others I could rattle off, but I'm sure the idea is conveyed.  It would be nice to view any particular group in an positive light, but it's just as unrealistic as viewing any group in a negative light.  I still have to go on a case by case basis.  As much as I would like to, I can't just assume O/one is honorable just because they are (Dom, sub, Master, slave)  [Insert your term of choice here ________].

On an individual basis, I tend to get to "know" people from the discussions that are had on the boards.  I completely agree that some are here for knowledge/sharing information.  Some, I look forward to reading their opinions, and actually scan responses to see what T/they have had to say.  Then again, there are O/others where, I see what comes out, and know from the beginning that I have no respect for T/them.  It takes some restraint on My part not to just outright call T/them an ass, and do no better than T/they were to begin with in the areas of politeness and courtesy. 

It would be nice if certain things (such as honor and respect) could be expected becauseW/we are dealing with others in the lifestyle.  Unfortunately, W/we can't.  Maybe someday, Troll....... Maybe someday.

Edited to say, MasterFireMa'am, absolutely awesome addition.  (Hint, notice the above-mentioned reference to people that I particularly watch for on the boards.)



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Honor among D’s (4/11/2007 7:37:44 AM)

I don't get what this has to do with beind dominant/not dominant.  These are people, adults.

Generally, if you go into a new culture, you accept some of the cultural differences and limitations to a reasonable extent while you are visiting.  In return, any civilized culture respects guests and their differences and does not treat them as a native- this includes the benefits and the punishments.

In this particular thread in question, it seems that the goreans opened up a sort of "peace meeting between tribes" and in such cases, no one is expected to accommodate anothers cultural differences OR impose their cultural values on another.

Just because a few people can't accord themselves to those fairly basic guidelines doesn't say much about anything else, and again, has nothing to do with identifying one's self as a dominant/not a dominant.




SirDominic -> RE: Honor among D’s (4/11/2007 8:21:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

You seem to suppose that a particular group can be assume to have a sense of integrity or behave "honorably." This is a perilous and unlikely assumption. I'll explain why.

First, before you can determine if anyone's behavior is honorable, you must have a code of honor that is commonly accepted. Given that this "community" can't even agree on what a Dom/Top/Master/Dominant is... I'm not going to speculate on the odds of such a code spontaneously appearing AND being accepted.

We have no real "community", only the thinnest illusion of it. There is little actual need to avoid consequences, and so I doubt any code of honor is going to emerge. To assume that "doms" or "masters" or any other group is inherently "honorable" is folly, there are no such guarantees.

Whether we could create such a code, or create the need for it, is another question. To answer that, you must first answer the question of, can we create an actual community.


Padriag, your words are often very wise ........ but (now how did you know there was a "but" coming). This particular post makes little sense. You are using circular logic. " We have no code because we have no community (according to you). We have to create a community before we can create a code".

You start off not with facts, but your opinion. There is no code. There is no community. You then base your answer on your opinion as if it were fact. We have to create a community so we can create a code.

I'm really not interested in debating whether the fetish lifestyle is a community or not, that has proven to be an exercise in futility. So let's assume for a moment that there is no fetish code. It doesn't really matter. Because there is a code, not necessarily for the fetish world, but for the vanilla one.

If you believe in a moral stance, a personal honor,

you don't poach another friend's girl,
you don't cheat on your wife,
you don't make inappropriate advances on a first date (inappropriate in this sense meaning actions not well received by your date).

The moral code of the vanilla world translates nicely into the fetish:

you don't poach another Dom's sub,
you don't dishonor your own sub by straying, unless that arrangement is built into the rules of that relationship,
you don't make inappropriate advances on a date, be it Dom/Domme, Dom/sub or any other combination.

It's a code of honor. A code or morals. It transcends any particular lifestyle.

I do agree completely with your first comment. To suppose that any particular group will behave honorably is foolish. Not for the reasons you stated, but for the simple reason that the fetish world is made up of all so fallible humans. There are the good ones, the bad ones, and everything inbetween. That is just human nature.
Namaste, Sir Dominic



Padriag -> RE: Honor among D’s (4/11/2007 9:24:03 AM)

You can say you have a personal code, you can establish that to be anything you please.  However, until another recognizes it and accepts it, it has little value or function.  That is, it is of no value in establishing communication or trust.  Its not til you have a community that agrees upon, accepts, and enforces such a code of behavior that it gains real utility.  Then you have a standard by which you can measure behavior, by which you can say a person is or is not a member of the community (because either their behavior matches that code or not), then you have a standard by which you can say a person can be trusted so far as the code extends (that is their behavior will be predictable and reliable so far as the code concerns itself).  For our purposes we need such a community to establish such a code... but since we have neither, we aren't likely to get anywhere, which was the point I wanted to make.  Sometimes brevity leaves out a lot for the sake of one point.   That and not wanting to derail the thread into a philosophical debate. [;)]



WhipTheHip -> RE: Honor among D’s (4/11/2007 9:51:28 AM)

> Dom’s trying to dominate a Domme

I know you were talking about obnoxious non-consensual conduct.
But some dommes enjoy dominating a dom more than they enjoy
dominating a submissive, and vice versa. 

There is always negative way to see things and a positive way
to see things.   I think it is wrong to assume that any guy willing
to play any role is just after sex, and has no real interest in bdsm.
Humans come in every size, shape and form, and in every
combination and permutation.  

I am a sado-masochist.  I can be a top, a bottom, a dom or
submissive.  I much prefer being a dominant top, but I don't
exude the right vibes for most submissives and /or bottoms.  
Any play is better than no play.  

I don't know why so many here have to spend so much
time judging others as if it were their day job.  



daddysliloneds -> RE: Honor among D’s (4/11/2007 3:07:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiseCracknSadist

To me Doms and subs are just people. So I treat them as such. As a Dom I do not show a higher level of respect to another Dom I treat them as equals. On the flip side I treat subs as equals because they're not mine so I have no right to demand anything. Respect me and get it in turn.

However there are those who think they rule the world and we all should ask for each breath we take. Thus they think no matter who you are or what your standings are that you should bow to their greatness. We call these people dilluted. Then again there are those who love to be treated that way. So it's another case of the varying degrees of personalities.

Personally I'm a believer in the golden rule. Treat others as you want to be treated. Atleast until you have agreed upon the terms of your relationship.

This is exactly how I feel about it. I treat people as I want to be treated. But if they cross that line well then I am a redhead with a bad temper....

~Lashra



that goes for me as well!



Vendaval -> RE: Honor among D’s (4/11/2007 3:26:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FukinTroll

Now if we look at the kinky top kinky bottom thing and say those are folks that are looking for kinky sex and not a committed D/s dynamic can we apply the term Dom/Domme as a person who seeks a more structured and
permanent dynamic to D/s?

Well, terms and labels can become very confusing.
Kinky sex and domination can be separate or entwined.

With this logic in mind do have Dom/Domme’s who cherish honor and have respect for each other and would not consider teaching the “other” their sub side or try to lure another’s slave away?

The concept of community only applies as far as the participants
believe in and practice it.  Some communities are very tight
and controlled.  Others are very open and almost anarchist
in their structure.
 
Trying to bully anyone without consent, whatever their
Scene orientation, is bad in my book.  So is trying to
take another persons partner.  Many people have
the same or similiar values, others do not.
 
The ideals of honesty, integrity, honor and respect
are only as good as the individual character of the
persons involved.


MFM, thank you for sharing the FAD creed.
I have seen similiar rules for other groups and
dungeons, play parties, etc.



FukinTroll -> RE: Honor among D’s (4/11/2007 4:21:24 PM)

http://www.collarchat.com/m_937627/tm.htm
http://www.collarchat.com/m_943864/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm



hereyesruponyou -> RE: Honor among D’s (4/11/2007 4:26:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FukinTroll
Pathologically insecure, criminally negligent, and a dangerous pompous elitist Alpha Maharajah Master Commander Overlord Emperor-Dictator-of-All-Things High Lord Domly Dom!



you forgot Haaaaaaaaut!!!



FukinTroll -> RE: Honor among D’s (4/11/2007 4:28:45 PM)

I did?



dcnovice -> RE: Honor among D’s (4/11/2007 5:13:57 PM)

quote:

I am of the opinion that any Non Gorean on a Gorean forum should expect that most of the "locals" will treat them according to their own value system... not theirs... not mine. And it is simply a fact that respect, and who deserves it, is a sub-cultural value. Different cultures have different rules.


FWIW, the one time this non-Gorean ventured into a Gorean thread, folks were incredibly nice to me.



ownedgirlie -> RE: Honor among D’s (4/11/2007 6:46:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

I am of the opinion that any Non Gorean on a Gorean forum should expect that most of the "locals" will treat them according to their own value system... not theirs... not mine. And it is simply a fact that respect, and who deserves it, is a sub-cultural value. Different cultures have different rules.


FWIW, the one time this non-Gorean ventured into a Gorean thread, folks were incredibly nice to me.


Me too.

Honor is an individual thing.  I do not belong to any club - bdsm or otherwise - in which I must subscribe to a creed of sorts.  I'm finding this thread interesting.  Unless I'm misunderstanding, we are pulling in other threads, using other people's words to demonstrate what constitutes NOT having honor.  Is that honorable?

My philosophy is that there will be dishonorable people in the world.  I choose to maneuver around them.



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