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Motivated to the Reward. - 4/7/2007 3:18:11 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		This quote is an example to me of why I don't like the reward system as a means to control. 

"doing anything for just a mere chance of having my sex drive satisfyied."  

For is not Me as person that is Dominating and Controling the person... it's their own personal drive to satisfy their own personal desire.  I would be nothing more than a means to an end for the person.  As long as they are motivated towards this desire... I have control.. but the moment they are not.. I have lost the control.

So... do you have any thoughts?

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 4/7/2007 3:19:06 PM >

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RE: Motivated to the Reward. - 4/7/2007 3:22:37 PM   
crouchingtigress


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From: Maui
Status: offline 		to a point i agree....but before i continune let me ask you, what desire do you think is motivating your girls?

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RE: Motivated to the Reward. - 4/7/2007 3:33:36 PM   
unsung


Posts: 183
Joined: 12/23/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings KnightofMists,

Humm firstly I would have to say that quotation is full of self-gratification or certainly seems to be.  That is like I go to work so I can have the material luxuries I enjoy, not necessarily because I want to go to work.  Now if a person is just going through the motions in order to attain in this case sex then there seems to be a probability that the person is not fully involved in the dynamic other than to fulfill their own needs.  Now my take on this would be if a person is only giving as a way of taking there are more expediate methods of obtaining the objective.   Going to the bar and blowing some guy might just do the trick.  And back to your question I believe you would become the slave if in such a scenerio, reward following reward.  Certainly the tables would turn if you allowed them to (although I hardly suspect such *grins*).  Rewards as motivators are good for children as long as they are managed, managed is the key as we all know what occurs with youngins when too many rewards are given....... expectation and non performance until rewards are attained.  I personally see your above scenerio and the one of youngins in the same boat.

editted to add:  Even with Maslow's theory and others, and real life.  At work people are rewarded by salary raises, these however are only proven to provide a temporary injection of motivation.  The thrill soon slithers by and disgruntled employees soon fall back in to past behaviours.  I think rewards as motivators under any circumstances has a similiar possibility.  Heck I lived with a fellow once that thought going for an icecream was a motivator for our relationship when things were not going well, well heck no it was nothing more than something cool on a hot evening with still alot of chit going on that was not being dealt with only being avoided.  Rewards should not be used to cover up the defiencies.


< Message edited by unsung -- 4/7/2007 3:45:32 PM >

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RE: Motivated to the Reward. - 4/7/2007 3:36:52 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		A relationship must be internally fulfilling for ut to work in the long term.

That being said, mini or immediate rewards can certainly be a part of what makes a relationship ultimately fulfilling.

I don't think it's wrong to use external rewards as motivators, in fact I think they are great.  After all, if it's NOT ultimately fulfilling, no amount of external rewards will provide for it- as many learn to their misfortune.

So if it's already fulfilling, no reason not to provide great rewards for fun and usefulness that they can provide.

Sometime just getting through a hard days work requires a coldstone trip on the way home.  That doesn't mean I'm not fulfilled by my job, it means that sometimes I need a little extra push on a bad day.

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RE: Motivated to the Reward. - 4/7/2007 3:41:14 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

to a point i agree....but before i continune let me ask you, what desire do you think is motivating your girls?


To be with me.. as I am motivated to be with them...

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RE: Motivated to the Reward. - 4/7/2007 3:52:49 PM   
unsung


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Status: offline 		omg, I am even going to be more daring here and further go on to say that I might get close to ranking your above quotation right along side of 'my submission is a gift'.  Now you be a good Dom type and I will reward you with my submission.  If not well shame on you lmfao........... I am sorry and I probably offended a few in the above but I personally do not see how submission is a gift ............. but back to the OP as I was just attempting to reiterate my point.

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RE: Motivated to the Reward. - 4/7/2007 4:09:44 PM   
crouchingtigress


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quote:

To be with me.. as I am motivated to be with them...


yes, that is what  i thought.


if i understand your premise, you dont use sex a reward because to you it means you are not in control, the sex is in control. ie;the donkey would not pull the load with out the carrot, but i have a way of thinking of it this way, if i am trying to motivate the donkey, and i love the donkey and the donkey loves carrots and i am the one offering the carrot, then we have a pretty effective win win relationship where i am fully in control.

your girls want to be with you, obviously, but a huge part of that is orgasms.... lets be totally real, do you think that if you cut them off forever from them they would stay? i am sure they will say they would, but in 5 years 10 years you honestly think they would?....i dont, but i allow for the possibility i could be wrong.

i think that as the dominant ones job is to motivate the submissives submission, create the head space, if you will. now does this mean that that is the dominant job to run after the sub and think of ways to make him or her follow him? no not at all, but i do think that headspace is the main perk of being a slave, not sub space, which is similar but very different, but headspace, the slaves focus on her place, her role, her service and becoming varying degrees of lost in it.

now for me i find this stuff very hard to communicate effectively, i usually write something like this and it gets grossly misinterpreted, and besides there is no way to explain it unless you have lived it, so i do understand why that is. However you seem intelligent, and experienced enough to possibly know of what i speak, so maybe you will understand and we can discus it further, but if you think that i am talking about subspace, or that sex is the what is motivating your girls, then i apologize for not having the eloquence to speak my thoughts clearly, and we can just leave it it that.

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RE: Motivated to the Reward. - 4/7/2007 4:21:57 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress
your girls want to be with you, obviously, but a huge part of that is orgasms.... lets be totally real, do you think that if you cut them off forever from them they would stay? i am sure they will say they would, but in 5 years 10 years you honestly think they would?....i dont, but i allow for the possibility i could be wrong.



Hi Amy,

I saw this and wanted to comment.  My motivator is two-fold.  I have an inner drive and desire to submit to him, and to please him as well.  When I am true to myself I am plenty motivated in my relationship.  Were he to take away any privilege (and orgasms are a privilege) permanently or temporarily, I would accept that as part of my slavery to him and continue.  In my marriage, I had no sex for years.  No sex, no touching, no orgasms, other than a few meager ones from time to time.  I stayed for much deeper reasons, however unhealthy they may have been at the time.

If it pleased my Master to deny me orgasms for 10 years, then I would serve him without having them.  I am certain of this fact.  However, since playing with my orgasms is one of his most amusing things to do, I doubt that particular scenario would occur.  But your post caught my attention and sprung these thoughts which I wanted to share.  In my case, submission to him comes from my inner being, and the fact that he opened the door to allow me to be who and what I am is one of the things that makes me so appreciative and devoted to him.  So hmm, I suppose I could say my motivator is being true to myself, and that he allows me to be true to myself.  Anything on top of that is icing on the cake.

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RE: Motivated to the Reward. - 4/7/2007 4:27:30 PM   
nephandi


Posts: 4470
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From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Hi

When i train a dog, first i use reward and punishment, the reward being a treat and the punishment being a stern word or a quint of wather. Then as the dog have leared to obey, and he or she have a relationship whit me, i no longer need to give it a cookie or yell at him, the dog serve me out of love. i would say the same would be an idea for a slave.

That being said, it might be good to motivate whit a reward, but if the slave only obey becouse of the reward, that might be a not so good thing.

Be well.


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RE: Motivated to the Reward. - 4/7/2007 4:29:23 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

.... lets be totally real, do you think that if you cut them off forever from them they would stay? i am sure they will say they would, but in 5 years 10 years you honestly think they would?....i dont, but i allow for the possibility i could be wrong.


actually.. I know they would.  Orgasm is not the center of the relationship. 

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RE: Motivated to the Reward. - 4/7/2007 4:34:23 PM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		If I had to jump through hoops to have sex with him, then it wouoldn't be satisfying sex. A matching sex drive was one of those things that was paramount in importance to me, because when you are mismatched there is always resentment. Besides if I only got it on the rare occasion I had earned it, that would mean he wasn't attracted to me, and then I wouldn't want it or him. Why would I want to be with someone who didn't like me?

But this is in a male dom/fem sub relationship. If you reverse the genders to make it a domme/malesub then that's a different kettle of fish. The majority of male subs will happily jump through all kinds of hoops that are being yanked higher and higher in order to get a reward of the chastity being removed for the first time in two months.

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RE: Motivated to the Reward. - 4/7/2007 4:51:12 PM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
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From: Maui
Status: offline 		hi owned,

i hear what you are saying, acceptance is so much a part of slave head space, and i could see how not being allowed to orgasm could be turned into service that you could be fulfilled by....

i also understand that service is part of your inner desire and that in that way your owner completes you and allows you to be your most realized self. 

i too have had a sexless marriage, as i think you may remember, and i so agree that you can stay for "deeper reasons"...maybe 10 years is to short a time...but i have a hard time believing if he cut you off for the rest of your life that you would stay, because i think that if it was me, a part of me would die....and i think that the human body's need for self preservation is so great that it would not let that happen...we humans do amazing things to survive.

besides we are talking potential reality's 20 40 and 60 years away...i cant say what i will think like or be like in one year let alone guesstimate  what my life will look like 40 years from now.

but i am kinda am mad at myself for hijacking Kom's thread because his premise is reward and the big O, and now i can see it easily going into service with out sex....so we can go to the other side or some one can start a thread....(it wont be me, i am dreadful at starting threads) to hash this out some more.

Kom: i disagree but there is no way to ever know unless we made a pact to meet up in 50 years, .....which......of course...would be silly.



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RE: Motivated to the Reward. - 4/7/2007 4:55:21 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

...but i have a hard time believing if he cut you off for the rest of your life that you would stay, because i think that if it was me, a part of me would die....and i think that the human body's need for self preservation is so great that it would not let that happen...we humans do amazing things to survive.


I think the key here, Amy, is what motivates a person to stay, go, endure, whatever.  If I remain fulfilled in the relationship due to 300 other factors or one really key factor, the absence of one less important factor is not going to demotivate me.  Which, I believe, speaks in line with the OP.  :)

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RE: Motivated to the Reward. - 4/7/2007 4:56:41 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

Kom: i disagree but there is no way to ever know unless we made a pact to meet up in 50 years, .....which......of course...would be silly.



give me a call in 50 years.  But try not to transfer your issues and values of enduring a sexless marriage on to others relationships.  That was your relationship and what occurred in that relationship is not going to automatically apply in others. 

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RE: Motivated to the Reward. - 4/7/2007 5:05:12 PM   
crouchingtigress


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From: Maui
Status: offline 		i had a feeling you would take it like that....

sorry i accidentally hijacked your thread....its a good one....have fun.



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"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."




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RE: Motivated to the Reward. - 4/7/2007 5:17:07 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

 is what motivates a person to stay, go, endure, whatever.  If I remain fulfilled in the relationship due to 300 other factors or one really key factor, the absence of one less important factor is not going to demotivate me. 


This is indeed the key.  A relationship is made up of countless factors.  But.. if one is singularly motivated or focused to one factor... that is when everything becomes lost in a relationship or dooms one before it even begins. 

I know alot individuals like use the Training Dog analogy... but last time I checked.. Humans are little more complicated than a dog.  We have the ability to have a few more thoughts in our head and be motivated internally and externally in a variety of ways... sometimes it is all occuring at the same time... yeah.. we are a complex species at times.

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RE: Motivated to the Reward. - 4/7/2007 5:52:17 PM   
dawntreader


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Status: offline 		Awesome thread and pulling me from other things i am trying to accomplish in the dwindling hours of this day!
 
From this side of the kneel, my motivators have been different based on the type relationships i have had. In the beginning, it was ALL about sex and the partners i chose were based on that motivator. As i have progressed in this journey, it has become deeper and more spiritual for me and yet...this are motivators in themselves. To connect with someone at a core level, a physical/sexual level, spiritual level and intelligence level all carry tremendous value and are motivators for me to be my best...To just "be" is a wonderful state and hard to achieve without the motivation required to get there...growth is achieved with motivation and while i think most of us would agree that shallow motivators or one-sided relationships would not be healthy to a long-term, mutually fulfilling relationship... the well-rounded relationship that includes motivation to grow and achieve at all levels, is the path of submission i would chose...
 
This is NOT to say that should tragedy befall and a portion of the relationship could no longer function, that i would bail..ofcourse not! But, i don't think i could enter a relationship in which a vital part of what makes me - me, would be starved to death for the simple reason of "ability to do so"...

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RE: Motivated to the Reward. - 4/7/2007 6:00:57 PM   
Padriag


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

This quote is an example to me of why I don't like the reward system as a means to control. 

"doing anything for just a mere chance of having my sex drive satisfyied."  

So... do you have any thoughts?

Couple of brief observations.

First I think it would be useful to define exactly what is meant by reward.  I suspect there are several versions floating about between different individuals and that can lead to misunderstanding.  For example, if the whole relationship were predicated on "be a good sex slave and you'll be rewarded with nice clothes, jewelry, etc." then what you haven't isn't a M/s or D/s relationship (regardless of how its dressed up), what you have is prostitution.

On the other hand, if reward comes in the form of simple praise, the reward of a sense of achievement, that's quite different.

So is the use of reward when encouraging specific behavior (used as a reinforcer).

The second observation I'll make is that it initially seems implied that reward is the main motive for being together or for obeying, but that is not necessarily the case.  Also, if someone is with you for you... that's not really a reason.  You haven't gotten to the root of it yet.  We all choose to spend time with someone because doing so in some way brings us pleasure, it satisfies us... or put another way, we find it rewarding.  Thus a submissive my choose a relationship with a particular dom because she finds being with him personally rewarding, and that brings us full circle.  Where I think KoM seems to have a problem is with the use of artificial rewards (material things, goods, etc) as the primary or only motivation.  I agree that in that case it won't work... or at least only until the money runs out.  However, there are more forms of reward than that, and some need never end.

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RE: Motivated to the Reward. - 4/7/2007 7:07:05 PM   
GeekyGirl


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I'm going to go both ways on this one...while yes, submitting for the sake of submission is an admirable end, my own submission is tied to my sex drive and I would never be submissive towards a man who didn't meet my needs for kink, pain, and fetish-y sex.

Now sometimes keeping sex from me is actually what fulfills my need, because it enforces his control over me, which in turns turns me on and makes me even more horny. Heck, just being told to do his laundry can be a turn on because his dominance is sexy to me.

But in the end, it IS all linked to sex for me. If I thought I wasn't going to "get my cookies" some point in the near future and on a regular basis, I wouldn't be very submissive.

It's sort of tit for tat with me....make all my fantasies come true and in return I will worship the ground you walk on and do whatever you say. I don't really enjoy being told what to do outside the bedroom but I'll do it, and even enjoy it, if I know it turns him on and makes him want to have sex with me more.

I was involved once with a dominant who was not properly tending to my sex needs and my submission went away pretty quickly and the relationship ended badly. I'm into reciprocating...you make sure all my naughty sex needs are fulfilled and offer guidance to my life in general and I'll be submissive in return. But the sex and the need for overall guidance are what drives me. The latter is not something I enjoy (I actually hate being told what to do) but I know that I'm so inept that I NEED someone else to run my life.

That may make me "less" of a sub than some who do it for the sake of submission alone, but that's just how it works for me. I was never really able to give of myself and unless I knew I would get back equally as much in return. What I desire in return in this case is pain, dominance over me, kink, and guidance....if I'm not getting those things in what I consider to be sufficiant amounts , then I'll leave. This is why on some terms I consider myself more a "bottom" than a submissive...but I also know that with the right man, I can be VERY submissive and truly turn over my whole life to him, even to the point of being a "slave"...the key factor is that the man I can do that for is one whom I can trust to always make sure my needs are met.


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"It's nothing that I understand, but when in your arms you have complete power over me. So be gentle if you please, 'cause your hands are in my hair, but my heart is in your teeth and it makes me want to make you near me always."

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RE: Motivated to the Reward. - 4/7/2007 8:11:30 PM   
MasterFireMaam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
"doing anything for just a mere chance of having my sex drive satisfyied."  


There's several thing about this quote that bother me.

1) Control through or by sex. I loose respect for people who I can control this way. I learned REAL early that I could do this, at least with men. It works with women, too, but I hadn't found that out then.

2) Controlling using pleasure.reward ENSURES the sub/slave maintains their focus...squarely on themselve and what they want.

3) I don't see this a Ds or Ms...I see it as manipulation. I don't want to manipulate, I want to lead. In order to lead effectively, slave need to follow because they  feel fufilled to do so.

Master Fire


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