skeletons, closets, and a big brick wall

skeletons, closets, and a big brick wall (Full Version)

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Inhibitor -> skeletons, closets, and a big brick wall (3/31/2007 4:56:35 PM)
I'm looking for some experienced perspective on a rather melodramatic issue that's come up for me recently: "comming out", I guess you could say, or at the least, allowing it to be known by friends and family that I belong to someone else now. I knew the process wasn't going to be easy, and I tried to prepare myself for it by making sure I had my own questions and concerns answered to satisfaction. I had thought, my friends being abnormally open-minded and generally free in thought, that I'd be able to get it across without too much scandal. I was very, very wrong. Suffice it to say that when an "interest" in bdsm turned into an actual living, breathing thing, I somehow moved from fashionably perverse to irredeemably insane. Along the lines of emergency phone calls being made to members of my little network to organize some kind of "intervention." I know that in the end, this may boil down to me having been mistaken about the philosophical integrity of those I've taken as friends, and I may need to adjust accordingly. But I suspect the issue is more that I've hit a rift where I'm entrenched in something, and can know its rightness for me, while those close to me can do nothing but observe the gap and fear their inability to get across it. And I don't see how pretending it's not there is going to do any good. So, for any slaves reading - have you found a way to give your loved ones a head's up on your status? Is it really better to say nothing at all? And if so, how do you manage to keep absolutely everything under wraps? Wouldn't you have to lie on occasion, to explain actions you're taking or changes you've made? And for any masters packing property - if you're open with your activities, how do you explain them to your group? Is it better to just shut down a relationship if the person sees your actions in an objectionable light? F*ck 'em if they can't take a joke? I don't expect to be automagically accepted for the role I'm stepping into, but neither do I wish to open myself, or my relationship, to the degree of "moral criticism" it's been getting. I'm hoping a compromise is possible, and that I've simply missed my tactful protocol lessons. Any personal guidelines or happy ending stories would be appreciated (yeah, I'd like to be constructive, but I could use some "and we rode off into the sunset" right about now ;p).

MasterHyde -> RE: skeletons, closets, and a big brick wall (3/31/2007 5:26:35 PM)
A great deal depends on how you allow this to affect you and your relationship. I know it's cliche, but people have power over you only if you allow them to do so. There's a certain point where you need to be strong and say "Look, this is who I am. This is what I believe in. I respect you and the choices you've made in your life. I hope that you can respect me and the choices I've made in mine." I'm pretty "out" with my friends and family. Probably more than some people would like. Especially some friends who aren't as comfortable being out as I am who are afraid that my rather uncensored talk and behavior will somehow expose them when they are around me. But I am who I am. I try and tone it down for some people, but I can't completely change my personality or deny that this is an important part of my life. I have tried to surround myself for the most part with people who understand and accept me as me. In the case of some people, family in particular, I realize we don't get to choose our siblings or parents. And they didn't get to choose us, either. I try to be discreet with them, though I'm by no means secretive or deceptive. I have come out in one way or another to almost everyone important in my life. With varying degrees of detail out of respect for some people who just don't want or need to hear about my sex life or even my philosophy regarding relationships and equality (or the lack thereof). Grow a tough skin. And if that doesn't work, yes.... you may need to remove some people from your life. But try hard not to let it get to that point. In your case, I think the most important thing you can do is to let them see that you are not only happy in your relationship, but that you are safe and not being misused or manipulated in some way by your dominant/master/owner. This is a hard thing. They care about you, and since you're young, and a woman, it's a very natural thing for them to feel protective towards you. You, and your owner, need to show them that they don't have a reason to worry. Introduce him to your family and friends. Give them a chance to see what it is that you see in him. And don't expect them to change their minds overnight. Prejudice and fear are hard to overcome. The perception (even if it's ONLY a perception) that someone they love and care about might be hurt or taken advantage of by some dominant, aggressive alpha male type is not something they will let go of easily.

WhiplashSmile -> RE: skeletons, closets, and a big brick wall (3/31/2007 5:34:39 PM)
This is a very interesting question and subject to talk about. I've been letting more of my vanilla friends know that I'm into BDSM. There are some that actually know a good thing about what BDSM is or is not. I am more open with them. So some of these people, they just know I'm into heavy kinky sex. This is without going into all the dynamics of D/s bullshit. I have recently became open with my own mother about all this. She is 100% all for this provided it's consentual. As she says what is important that it's something that two people agree upon doing, and it's nobody elses business. All this coming from my own mother mind you. She knows I'm not going to be off killing anybody or engaging in harmful criminal acts against other people. Whew a relief there now, at least she is accepting to the idea of me bringing a slave/girlfriend for Thanksgiving Dinner and other special events. She even know somebody that used to date a Pro Domme before even. Go figure. So my mom really is open minded. She would be accepting of any nilla, sub, switch, slave or Domme. If your friends are giving you a hard time about you being a Slave. Just tell them "You want to be your Masters slave". It's a Free world after all. Just as much as everybody wants to be with another. Get your point across in a manner that they can relate too. No matter what label you hang on it, you simply want to be with the person you wish. You can make jokes and tell them not to worry, that it's not real slaverly where you are have been captured, traded or exchanged. That you are slave to your master with your own heart. This is how I would handle it, if I had Vanilla head friends questioning me owning a slave. I would tell them, she wants to be my slave and I want to be her owner. That this is where are Hearts are at. That it all was a freedom of choices that we made. I hope this helps you somehow, someway. For the most part I'd just admit to the BDSM dynamics and steer away from the words Master and slave as much as possible. When people hear the word slave, they think of pre american civil war days, and of African American Slavery. The word Slave carries a very negative meaning in their minds, because what we are all taught in school about Slavery in American history.

velvetears -> RE: skeletons, closets, and a big brick wall (3/31/2007 5:42:14 PM)
As long as your over 18 and nothing you told them involves anything blatently illegal it's your life. The more you defend it, the more they are going to want to intervene. Be a living example to them of a calm, happy, together whatever you told them you were - a slave i assume and they will eventually calm down. They are reacting is out of fear - fear that you will be hurt or that you are being influenced by someone with bad intentions of taking advantage of you. In time they will come to see you are still the same person you were before you told them. i once had a family member tell others in my family something very private about me that she found out when i let her live with me. i felt no need to defend myself or even address the issue - it wasn't mine to address. i basically ignored their inquiries and changed the subject. Don't feel pressured to help everyone deal with your lifes choices - just be you and let them deal with it in their own way and on their own time.

bearincuffs -> RE: skeletons, closets, and a big brick wall (3/31/2007 5:52:20 PM)
I can relate how I am handling this same situation with my own family regarding my entering into a 24/7 relationship with my Master. I don't have a good relationship with my sister and parents. At 46, they still see me as a child not knowing how life works! (yea right) I know they will not accept and understand why I will consensually hand control over my life to another. I simply told them I had met a wonderful man who is fully willing to take care of me and who honestly cares for me. I know this a partial truth but enough to keep then satisfied!!! My personal rule is to reveal very little of my personal life to family and always have done so. I have no intentions of explaining the full dynamics of my relationship and I never will and this also applies to my sister. Right now my biological family believes I am making the biggest mistake of my life and half thinks I need professional help rofl. The only thing I can say is using a gradual approach, depending on how open minded your family is. I believe that is the best way to decide how much they should know and how much you think they can accept without becoming unaccepting of the choices you feel are right for you. Only you know the dynamics of your family and use your gut instinct as a guide to revealing as little or as much to them. Good luck!

SusanofO -> RE: skeletons, closets, and a big brick wall (3/31/2007 6:41:19 PM)
I never tell my family anything. Even though they are actually fairly "liberal." The only person who knows is my middle sister (I have two sisters). The reason she knows is because last Fall my ex-Dominant beat me to a (non-consensual) pulp, and my sister and I were having lunch, and I accidentally slipped and told her about it, and then she got all weirded out about it, and threatened to tell my father unless I prosecuted him. So I did (and I initially did not plan to do that.) She is sworn to secrecy, though, because if my father found out he just would not understand, and probably would come after any Dominant of mine with a shot-gun, or something. Plus he'd no doubt spend hours, or weeks, (or maybe years) wondering "where he went wrong" raising me, no matter what I said to him, and he was actually a great father, and I just don't wanna go there...my mother is dead - so no worries there. My other sister would probably get weirded out about it, although I do have a niece who I'd say may have serious "Domme" tendencies. She inquired of me once if I thought her inclinations re: fantasizing about spanking guys were "weird", and I said no, and referred her to a few pretty mild bdsm websites, on the condition she not tell her mother I told her about them (and she hasn't, and that was over a year ago). She is 20 years old, and a very attractive "tomboy" type. I have no idea why she asked me, except that I am considered the "most open minded" one in my family- I'd never mentioned anything related to bdsm - to anyone in my family, but am glad I had the chance to maybe help me niece in that instance. I am "out" to one "vanilla" friend, and until last week, that was going rather well, until she looked up some more extreme S/m websites, and apparently got grossed out by what she saw, and is now constantly wringing her hands in supposed "fear for my safety", and my mentioning it has now turned into a primo pain in the ass, and now every time I am around her, I feel she thinks a big part of me is "sick". Why did I ever, ever open my mouth?, I am now asking myself. I don't have enough money to buy aspirin for all of the folks who would claim to be worried about me if I "outed" myself to them, so I just say nothing. Easier for me, easier for them. Am I a "hypocrite"? I dunno - it's my life, and I am pretty realistic in my assessment of who in my life can "handle" this kind of information. I just want some peace. I think whoever feels better coming out with all of the bdsm talk to relatives and friends should do that, I really mean that. I have zero constructive advice to offer on "coming out", because I've simply avoided it all, as the path of least resistence makes more sense - for me. But I will say: If you feel you "owe" anyone an explanation of what you do in your bedroom on week-ends, or what "kind" of relationship you have w/a "significnt other", IMO, you absolutely do not. It is just nobody's business. I don't care how much they say they want to know, or how much they tell you they "need to know." They just don't, IMO. My view: Unless they are "into" bdsm themselves, unless they are extremely trustworthy, plus extremely open-minded and accepting, expecting automatic "acceptance" is probably, IMO, setting yourself up for an avoidable, and un-necessary, fall. My basic question in these situations is usually: Why do they "need" to know? My usual answer to myself: It would be nice if they just "accepted" my proclivities toward bdsm. Will they? Probably not, and if they do it will be grudgingly. Are they obligated to accept it? No. But most of all, my question is usually - is it any of their friggin' business?* NO. For me, being "out" to everyone, and anyone, is just more potential trouble than it is worth. If I met some Dominant I decided I loved, or got serious with some male submissive, for instance, and wanted to bring them to a holiday dinner with my family, they'd just have to make the ultimate sacrifice, I guess, and not mention anything about bdsm for a few hours. If they couldn't agree to do this, we couldn't ever have a relationship where they met my family. Nobody in it "needs" detailed explanantions of my intimate life. I certainly never ask for one from them, nor do they offer it - and we are a pretty close family. My bottom line is that I just plain don't consider my sex life anyone else's business. I don't ask anyone I know about their sex life. Oh sure, occasionally my sisters and I have had our "heart-to-heart" talks over the years, and ditto for a few very, very close friends, but mostly, the topic comes up extremely rarely, if ever. I can't imagine having to "out" myself to anyone, about something I consider basically none of anyone's business to begin with. In fact, I'd feel insulted if anyone else did consider it their business, because it's just not. But I sincerely wish you luck (I really, truly do), no matter what you decide. - Susan

juliaoceania -> RE: skeletons, closets, and a big brick wall (3/31/2007 7:24:01 PM)
I can imagine that I might be ok with telling my family that I am submissive one day, but I would probably never couch it in terms like "ownership" and "property" to them. I had a hard enough time understanding these things that I was drawn to, I do not expect that my family would be able to "get it". They already know I like giving control over certain things to the man in my life, they know I prefer to spoil my man, I see no reason to trouble their psyches with it... It is unfortunate that the people in your life do not understand how you feel, but time will illustrate whether or not your chosen path is right for you by your happiness and satisfaction. The best way to change their minds is by living a happy life, and if they see that you are happy and they still are unaccepting, I would question if they had ever been very good friends to start with, or if their friendship is dependent on their comfort level with your intimate relationships Good luck

SusanofO -> RE: skeletons, closets, and a big brick wall (3/31/2007 7:29:25 PM)
I agree with juliaoceania. If you let them know a little bit, in the general terms she talked about - how can they object to that? It's not their life, bottom-line, and also, if you are obviously content with your relationship, then that is the ultimate "proof" it is "working" and hopefully would be an indication to them that they probably have little reason to worry. - Susan

Devilslilsister -> RE: skeletons, closets, and a big brick wall (3/31/2007 7:30:55 PM)
i tell them only as much as i think they can handle. I take it step by step to see how they are handling any new information.

SimplyMichael -> RE: skeletons, closets, and a big brick wall (3/31/2007 8:28:15 PM)
I am lucky, I live in California and am out at work, my family, and my friends. That said, another one of Dossie Easton's wonderful books is "When Someone You Love is Kinky" http://www.amazon.com/When-Someone-You-Love-Kinky/dp/1890159239 When people see mainstream books saying it is okay, they tend to mellow out a bit...best of luck with it.

MasterFireMaam -> RE: skeletons, closets, and a big brick wall (3/31/2007 9:12:08 PM)
This can be a really tough situation. I wonder, do your friends know your Dominant/Master? If they do and they've always shown good judgement in the past, it might not be a bad idea to listen to what they have to say. If they don't and he's willing, you might give them a chance to ask the two of you questions. Don't participate in an Inquisition, but they're concerned and probably simply need to be educated. They may never like it, but perhaps they can accept it. For me, this is who I am. If someone doesn't like it or finds it somehow diminishing, that's on them. Their perception of me and what I do is a reflection and projection of what they feel about themselves. I came out to my mom several years ago (my Dad's passed away over a decade ago). While she wasn't interested in the SM stuff, she did admit it would be nice to know exactly what was expected of each person. So, she gets the whole structure part. I told her and I explained briefly what it all mean to me (Master/slave has such negative connotations), then I let her ask all the questions she wanted. I answered as truthfully as I could. It was a good talk...and actually fairly short. Master Fire

TexasMaam -> RE: skeletons, closets, and a big brick wall (3/31/2007 9:14:30 PM)
Good luck with that. Welcome to the reality of BDSM behind closed doors. NOW you know why ALL of us aren't 'OUT' there with it. Take care, let us know how things go for you. TM

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: skeletons, closets, and a big brick wall (3/31/2007 11:49:32 PM)
Reposted: First, this is a lot like the coming out process that homosexuals have to deal with as well. Secondly, make sure that you are prepared to handle questions and reactions that might come at you. Sometimes they might be ok with it, sometimes they might be confused, or angry or worried or other things- make sure you can handle whatever is going to be thrown at you. Next, decide whether you think they are ready for you to come out to them. I'm out to my sister but not to my mother. I doubt I ever will come out t my mom. It's not so much about my own privacy, but about her comfort level. I don't need her to know about me being owned property in order for my relationship to be healthy with her. Next, on a person by person basis, pick good timing. Holidays are not good. If you're telling casual friends, then do it at a party or some place where youa re being casual. If you are telling a best friend or relative, leave privacy and space to talk. Your OWN attitude will shine through more than anything you actually say. Keep it simple, keep it generic, keep it nilla-friendly at first, and show that you are happy with this choice. Make sure that you project an attitude of confidence and sincerity. They don't have to understand the relationship as long as they understand it makes you happy. And give it time. Coming out is a PROCESS, it rarely happens all in one bunch. The more practice you get at coming out, the easier it gets. http://www.collarchat.com/m_821839/mpage_1/key_coming/tm.htm#822664 Coming out as a sub http://www.collarchat.com/m_673932/mpage_1/key_coming/tm.htm#673940 questions about coming out http://www.collarchat.com/m_603184/mpage_1/key_coming/tm.htm#603237 Coming Out http://www.collarchat.com/m_594649/mpage_1/key_coming/tm.htm#594704 Telling Family http://www.collarchat.com/m_552712/mpage_1/key_coming/tm.htm#552726 real world acceptance http://www.collarchat.com/m_500172/mpage_1/key_coming%252Cprocess/tm.htm#500695 So I came out... http://www.collarchat.com/m_191844/mpage_1/key_coming%252Cprocess/tm.htm#192641 family http://www.collarchat.com/m_87719/mpage_1/key_coming%252Cprocess/tm.htm#87743 Talking to vanilla people

SusanofO -> RE: skeletons, closets, and a big brick wall (4/1/2007 12:29:50 AM)
To the OP: I do sincerely wish you luck in resolving this, or at least making peace w/your own decision about how to handle it. To me, this is one of those topics that basically pursues the question: "Where do I draw the line between pursuing my own pleasure or comfort, and my obligation to others' comfort?" (mostly emotional comfort and pleasure, in this case, I am thinking). I realize there is probably a continuum in operation here, and for some people (maybe many) it isn't that consisent, really, despite protestations of some I've read about, in similar situations, that they will always, always always do X in situation Y, etc. Maybe some do. My guess is, though, that many folks wrestle with questions like this often (everybody's human, after all). I've told people about my bdsm interest before that I wish I hadn't. On the other hand, there maybe are one or two other people in my life I could tell with almost no hassle for either of us (they're just not in my immediate family-of-origin). I am just kind of feeling my way through these situations, and finally came up w/ a solution that seemed to work for me: I don't bring it up. If someone asks, I tell them nothing, and politely explain I don't really feel comfortable discussing my intimate life with others, and hope they accept that. I will discuss it, but not unless there's a reason I consider extremely valid, or there are extenuating circumstances that almost necessitate it, and I also need to make pretty sure it won't hurt who I am telling. It might not hurt or be really uncomfortable for someone I know, but it's usually pretty obvious to me, if it won't (there are 1 or 2 other people who I think I could tell, actually, but haven't simply because I consider it a private topic. But they wouldn't disown me or anything, as a person, probably, if I did tell them) But - I have to trust them a lot, and know enough about them to trust them a lot, to even want to discuss it. If I think saying something is gonna either 1) Hurt them or make them very uncomfortable or - especially 2) Create undue hassle for me - then I just figure, why bother? For some folks, this method of mine wouldn't work at all. That's fine, they can do what they think they need to do. I see this question play out out on these message boards all the time when topics surrounding the following are brought up: How do I break-up w/my Dominant (or submissive) when I know our relationship isn't working anymore, but now they've become "dependent" on me? I have strong bdsm urges my wife (or husband) will never understand or allow me to act on - do I do it anyway, in secret, and feel like a ghost in my own life, or get a divorce to pursue my bdsm proclivities, and potentially ruin the whole family's life for years to come, or just join a monastery or a convent - or what? *My Dominant said he'd protect me and have my welfare in mind at all times, and now to me it looks like he's being purely selfish without concern for me, and tells me when I want to talk about it, I am a "bad" submissive? What should I do? And the list goes on. I bet if people looked hard, you could see the "where do I make the distinction between merely pursuing my own pleasure, and whether I am doing it at other's expense" hidden in many of the topics brought out here; it's just that is' not so clearly out front in some topics and questions, IMO. Yours here is a topic I think definitely worth some considered reflection, and one probably many people ask themselves (I've done it before, for sure). I hope you find the answer that works best for you, and those involved in your life. Good luck, I wish you well. - Susan

ownedgirlie -> RE: skeletons, closets, and a big brick wall (4/1/2007 12:31:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister i tell them only as much as i think they can handle. I take it step by step to see how they are handling any new information. I completely agree with this. I realize not everyone is going to understand where I am in life and where I'm coming from. For that reason I tend to exercise discretion regarding what I share and with whom. I am that way with everyone though, not just "vanillas." I tend to share a little at a time with those close to me, and gauge how they are receiving what I am saying. I have mistakenly burdened people before, with information they could not handle. Not only do I not like to do that to people, but it can create a strain on the relationship as well. And like LA said, my Mom doesn't need to know I am owned property in order for us to have a good relationship. I wonder though, if a dominant nature is more easily accepted by the masses than a submissive one. My Master has a pet he uses to tend to me. I find it interesting when I tell certain friends I have a servant to clean my home and do my menial tasks, they are thrilled for me, yet when I say I can not wait to serve my Master's needs, they shudder.

SusanofO -> RE: skeletons, closets, and a big brick wall (4/1/2007 1:09:29 AM)
I agree it's insteresting some folks can't see that, ownedgirlie. I see people as submissive in all kinds of ways they don't stop to think about: To their employer, to the mortgage banker, etc. - and that's a ll consensual, too. Dominants are somewhat dependent on submissives - otherwise why do thay have them? "Submissive" seems to conjure up some image of some beaten puppy dog somewhere, cowering. The idea someone could enjoy it seems foreign to many (and it probably is, IMO, if they don't stop to think how they are submissive in their own lives, to someone, or to some institution, non-bdsm related, but completely voluntarily.) "Dominant" can conjure up some pretty ugly images, for some folks, too, IMO - but overall, I think most people like to cling to the idea they are totally always completely in control of their own lives - hence that they are more "dominant" than they are "submissive" maybe (atheists take this to an extreme, IMO - but that is a whole other conversation, and I don't wanna go there, because in the U.S. we do have freedom of religion, which includes being anti-religion, etc.) I am digressing (sorry). It is a good topic the OP brought up. - Susan

Amaros -> RE: skeletons, closets, and a big brick wall (4/1/2007 2:55:00 AM)
Hehe, blame it all on them, and thank them for making you see the light - that should shut them up for a couple of minutes. The best offense is a good defense is my general philiosophy, but it is true that the opposite is also sometimes useful, particularly true when applied to BDSM issues I think, and going on the offensive should diminish suspicions of incompetence. In my experience, people seldom get over their petty superstitions and illusions very quickly if at all - but they may be persuaded to overlook them if the alternatve is less less reaffrming to their identity.

eyesopened -> RE: skeletons, closets, and a big brick wall (4/1/2007 3:23:51 AM)
i have never understood the need to be "out" when it comes to BDSM activities or to announce being a slave or a Master. i remember what Jesus said about people "By their fruits you will know them." So that if my family see my Master and i happy, healthy, and in a harmonious relationship, they might be curious how we accomplished this and then i could explain the dynamic. If i try to be in their face with the specifics, they probably won't understand. What does my family really need to know? My collar is a simple strand of pearls it doesn't need to be a strap of leather with a D-ring in order for me to know it's a collar. Also, i don't need my family and friends to know my kink in order for me to be obedient. i am perfectly comfortable in front of my biologicals with my Master sitting in His chair with me curled at His feet while watching television. No questions are asked and no explaination is necessary.

iFraudius -> RE: skeletons, closets, and a big brick wall (4/1/2007 3:33:24 AM)
Briefly, because I think so many good comments have been made here: SusanofO I particularly liked what you had to say. Your take on how what we perceive of as our pleasures (along with the pleasure we get from communicating about them) and the feelings of others conflict, is right on target. There are people in my life I cherish, both family and friends, who I know would be conflicted and / or concerned if I were to ever reveal what my intimate life is about. For that reason, many of my friends are people whom I've met in the pursuit of that life, and they are there for me (and I for them) in the supportive role of friends who can share what we know we cannot share with just anyone. Perhaps because I have been alternatively oriented all my life and had to attempt to introduce the topic to potential partners with whom there was no prior way to judge their interest or acceptance, I developed what one termed "a very diplomatic approach". Never the less I have been much more cautious in my revelations to anyone who didn't have to know. It's always on a case by case basis. For one thing, I don't necessarily perceive everyone, even those I'm close friends with, as having anything to really offer about something they can't relate to. If I were vanilla, I don't think I'd be discussing the partners in my life and what I do with them in that intimate detail either. My suggestion to you in regard to those you have made these revelations to and have reacted badly is this; if you temper your discussions and simply revert to a more "conventional" way of describing the nature of your relationships and partners, it's highly likely your friends, who really aren't comfortable with the subject, will tend to draw down their level of concern, choosing the more comfortable route of seeing you the way they'd like to -- as "normal". You don't have to lie, you just don't have to continue to reveal what they don't want to know about. If there are those who won't drop the subject and enjoy the relationship with you on other terms, then yes, I'd say those are probably people you can do without in your life. If you'd like some specific essays on the nature of D/s and BDSM relationships explained in terms of consentual and mutual needs as an expression of intimacy, send an email and I'll forward a couple I wrote to that purpose.

Amaros -> RE: skeletons, closets, and a big brick wall (4/1/2007 3:46:37 AM)
It cracks me up sometimes that vanilla's aso horrified by power exchangfe dynamics wne baicly thy are insisting that thing be done "their way" without the least bit of understanding of how that way evolved or why. If you know "the rules", it becomes practically an obligation to break them - but it's up to you to sell it, if that is is indeed your situation. And again, people accept all sorts of unpalatable, even baldly enethical things all the time, provided the alternative is is made to seem more unpalatable - listen to "conservative" corporate talk radio sometime.

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