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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

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ORIGINAL: missturbation
It looks to me like the UK has been fucked over in this inquiry act change so that we will never achieve truth when it comes to public inquiries. As the 'public' we were never going to be privy to all the facts anyway. Yes its suspect and yes it appears like the government in the UK is hiding things but i dont think we will ever know for certain.

Ok so we basically agree there... 

Do you have the right to redress there? 

We supposedly have that right however it is being denied to us routinely in cases again where the very wealthy would get hurt, gov officials, or if it would cause the gov to giv up some power , and fought vehemently where the government is skirting the Law with "color", fraud, or they believe a certain power should be their to wield and it is threatened.
Erm I'm not sure to tell the truth. I guess we can ask for access to the cctv footage as the video you posted stated but i would think we would come up against a brick wall. The little people just have no power ya know.

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ORIGINAL: missturbation
So far i would say not but the strategies of id cards etc have yet to be put in place. Do i personally think they will help? No there will just be a black market to get false ids on. 

yes we had a long discussion about that didnt we LOL   the issue here is if the gov wants snoop at least they have to get warrants and do a little research, check many many sources and the expense is enough that they really are not likely to do it unless they have a pretty good reason to do it.   With those id cards it nothing more than type in your name and they can tell you where and what you had for breakfast, where you drove what streets you took, buying patterns, travelling patterns and on and on and on.    Of course we all like to think that everyone is an honest joe, but unfortunately that is not the way it is here...

They took out a president, JFK they certainly can take me out or anyone else they want to....  Look at o'neil or vince foster... how about john kennedy jr...  and of course they will say they tripped on a bullet and the american people are dumb enough to believe it LOL.
I agree with you but i still stand by what i originally said about id cards, that whilst invading privacy if they do help to prevent terrorism / crime then they are a good thing. I've nothing to hide, i cant have with my career lol so they are no problem for me. I always do wonder what people have to hide that oppose these things so strongly.

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ORIGINAL: missturbation
With respect i truly hope not. I would detest being part of the USA.

Well you might feel right at home because our inalienable rights are being dismantled and becoming like the uk no?  we do have the fioa but still anything they want to hold back just gets labelled national security...
I might. I don't find the UK so bad and i guess probably the USA i wouldnt find so bad either.

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ORIGINAL: missturbation
Nope no reason as far as i am aware. I dont know what the government is telling me is the truth but there is very little i can do about that. Its not a case of they werent seen all the way to the station it is a case of we havent been shown the evidence. It may possibly not exist - i cant say.

So people did see them then all the way there?  i mean there are witnesses?  Were they able to describe them?
I cant answer that. The only proof would be the cctv footage, witnesses can be unreliable.

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ORIGINAL: missturbation
There are inconsistencies but i think there always are.

Well not usually ones that defy physics as in the case here.   The one where the cameras coincidentally failed just at that moment seems to be a huge coincidence unless they have a habit of failing all the time and on that one i would bet they are very reliable.   i mean arent you inundated with them there?
God yes, there are speed cameras and cctv cameras everywhere nowadays. How reliable they are i have no idea.

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ORIGINAL: missturbation
Im not overly hot on politics but my impression is they tell us what they think we want to hear or tell us nothing.

well they spin it here.   Sometimes using double speak like ashcroft calling anyone who stands up for their rights terrorists, that frankly pissed me off and continues to piss me off.  its the manner in which he said it that flies by most people.
Pretty sure that what they choose to tell us follows the same rules in most countries. I'm not sure we could handle the truth sometimes or some of us maybe couldnt.

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ORIGINAL: missturbation
I spoke to some spanish after the bombings as i was over there and the theories varied from just wanting a new government and that al qaeda was behind it and that spanish terrorist groups were behind it. 

i have to ask the question:  why would al queada care less about a coup in spain?  i mean its not like they intalled a member there from the alquaeda network!  What possible reason would they have to do such a thing?  i could understand several governments including spain who may want to replace their government but it sounds like it is a buzz word, blame al queada for everything and we the idiot people will never put it together and figure it out.
Basically those who believe al quaeda was behind it say that to get the spanish troops out of iraq they bombmadrid calling the spanish to want out of iraq so they in turn vote a new prime minister in who promises to pull spanish troops out. Long winded and maybe not really worth the trouble but possible i guess.

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ORIGINAL: missturbation
Do you feel that your government adequately backed up their theories?  What in those videos do you feel is incorrect of that the gov disproved or?
Definately not. I just cant get in a huge lather about it.

Same here. in fact ours opened up such a can of worms that if more americans were paying attention they would never be able to contain them.   Unfortunately i believe this country is doomed because the educational standards are so incredible low here, (dont forget they lowered the sat score here, that is made it so a lower grade was 1 up or so.... or if you had an 80 before it was now a 90 so we looked better compared to the asians.
Don't get me started on the american education system, i thought ours was pretty bad but yours is atrocious.

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ORIGINAL: missturbation
According to what ive seen the USA will be one of the biggest beneficaries in the way of arms sales etc.

Arms i woudl agree but oil and banking is shared.  and bankers really have no country you know.  they stay at arms reach and can hop anywhere anytime.
I'll go with you on this one, my knowledge of such things is lacking at best.

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ORIGINAL: missturbation
Maybe the truth is just better remaining unknown, maybe we have been told the lesser of two evils and to be honest i think let sleeping dogs lie even if its just for the victims families who dont need this dredging up every two minutes.
I mean whilst we are on the subjec the big american block buster that was made about 9/11 how distasteful was that and to make it worse america profitted from it too.

Well i see that like brushing rape under the table.   i would encourage a rape victim to pursue to perp by all means!  Otherwise its like a tiger, once they get that first taste human blood they will come back for more and more and next thing you know they teach the kits to do the same and there is an army of them.  The same goes for this sort of thing.
I know what you are saying and yes we should be hearing the truth but if the truth is more harmful to us id rather not know if im honest. I hate the thought of all the victims families who have lost enough without having it rubbed in their faces constantly and having to deal with that their government may be lieing to them about what happened to those they love. At the end of the day it is highly unlikely we will ever know the truth so why fight a useless cause. Surely best to fight things we can do something about. Pick your fights carefully.

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

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ORIGINAL: missturbation
I agree. However anyone can pull loop holes in a story but being able to provide alternative explanations is an entirely different story. That is my problem with the film, it offers nothing as an alternative.

So what do you feel an alternative would be?  i always thought the alternative was the governments version?

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Do you think that this current government is not capable of lies and deception, or the police and the media? There is evidence in the production. Before you dismiss it, what answer do you have to the following:

1) The British government including forged documents in the WMDs dossier.
2) The police fabricating evidence in a deliberate bid to lock up people for years.
3) The British government using MI5 and M16 to spy on the public - tapping phones etc.

There are many questions to be answered. As a society we've been brainwashed into thinking our recent governments and police are upstanding members of the community. If you're interested in the truth, then have another look at that first production and think about what it means and whether or not the examples of corruption should be dismissed so carelessly - I can tell you that the examples given are bang on.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

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ORIGINAL: Tuomas
Secondly, part of the thesis of the video is that an "public enquiry is not allowed". Well, I happen to agree with that. I'm an arson investigator, and I can tell you first-hand that "enquiry" of any sort that is not by the people in charge is a waste of time. Even "profesional" people -such as the Police- routinely get things wrong.

The concept of a public enquiry is purely that the truth is identified. It doesn't mean that you, I and the bloke down the street undertake the enquiry. It means that honest, objective individuals participate.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

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ORIGINAL: Tuomas
Fourthly, witnesses are considered to be widely unreliable.

In the first production? What are you talking about?

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

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ORIGINAL: Tuomas
Fiftly even in such innocent investigations as a candle burning somoene's house down, "evidence" is with-held.

What has this got to do with the withholding of information which is blatantly in the public interest and has serious consequences in regard to our civil liberties?

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

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ORIGINAL: Tuomas
So.... conspiracy theory.[:-]

What about the public being entitled to know the full story? which we're not getting as information is being withheld.

You've posted on this thread which suggests you have an interest in the OP. Based on this, I strongly suggest you watch the first production again and have a long, hard think about what this actually means for civil liberty.

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ORIGINAL: Tuomas
I think "the public" -whoever claims himself to be that- does have a right to know. In fact, I think a lot of people know, and that almost anything is available to anyone who wants it enough. By that, I mean someone who is willing to get up from their computer screen and find it. This "lack" of information I belive is largely hyperbolized in an effort to make people who have too much free time on their hands feel like they are doing something "worthy."

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ORIGINAL: missturbation

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

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ORIGINAL: missturbation
I agree. However anyone can pull loop holes in a story but being able to provide alternative explanations is an entirely different story. That is my problem with the film, it offers nothing as an alternative.

So what do you feel an alternative would be?  i always thought the alternative was the governments version?

I have no idea. I heard an alternative to 9/11 which was that Bush was behind the bombings of the twin towers, why i cant remember.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

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ORIGINAL: Tuomas

But to theorize that there is a conspiracy to kill fellow citizens in an effort to support "corporate interests" seems an almost entirely American persuit. (Although the videos do show that there are British elements, as well.)

The narrator of the first production was not saying that the government killed people.

No, the British have always been distrustful of politicians. Where the likes of Real0ne and I will disagree is that Real0ne would say politicians in general are not to be trusted, whereas I would say some of them are corrupt but we've had some good governments down the years who have genuinely helped our lives and civil liberty. The problem is that the governments of the last 30 years are trying to undo all the good work done by the governments of the first half of the 20th century, and yes - the current lot are slaves to corporate Britain (as were the previous shambles).

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

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ORIGINAL: Tuomas
I think "the public" -whoever claims himself to be that- does have a right to know. In fact, I think a lot of people know, and that almost anything is available to anyone who wants it enough. By that, I mean someone who is willing to get up from their computer screen and find it. This "lack" of information I belive is largely hyperbolized in an effort to make people who have too much free time on their hands feel like they are doing something "worthy."

i say never underestimate "one".

Thinking jesus christ and christianity and adolf hitler to the converse.  each started with "one"