RE: UK US

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missturbation -> RE: UK US (3/30/2007 7:19:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: Tuomas Awww, no fair! I can't see if you are cute or not. But nice interests[:D] yeh she's cute! Thank you [:)]

Real0ne -> RE: UK US (3/30/2007 7:28:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tuomas You mean like, turn off the TV? Fox and CNN bore me, because they repeat the same things over and over. And they are very unimportant. Like, well, a little girl disappeared in Nevada. OK, for her and her family, it's important.... but not to the entire world! We want to know important things, like, well.... well, you know! [:-] The reason you think that is because you don't know it's with-held. That is the whole point of not revealing information: so people don't know about it [;)] Come on, they had literally a solid week possibly even two weeks where that is all that was on, then breaking news bulletins, over and over, i do not have cable tv because well its pretty worthless frankly. i suppose if i wanted to listen to all the propaganda and spin or watch robocop or the matrix 500 times a year it might be worth it LOL So i just have whatever comes through the rabbit ears antenna. The government here releases its information usually 30 - 50 years after the fact. If you go on the nsa, and cia websites you can see some of the operations they conducted and review what they hid from us at the time. Around here if its kept secret on a large scale usually big money will be hurt or some high level gov officials or both. Like when we had the coup when they killed kennedy. We dont knwo who pulled the trigger(s) but we do know that vice president johnshon, hunt and several of their cronies orchestrated it and now that everyone is dead the thruth comes out. So our government lies and continues to lie about it to us.

Sinergy -> RE: UK US (3/30/2007 7:36:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tuomas You mean like, turn off the TV? Then I could not watch "Stupid Spoiled Whore Video Playset" from South Park. Sinergy

Tuomas -> RE: UK US (3/30/2007 7:36:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: Tuomas You mean like, turn off the TV? Fox and CNN bore me, because they repeat the same things over and over. And they are very unimportant. Like, well, a little girl disappeared in Nevada. OK, for her and her family, it's important.... but not to the entire world! We want to know important things, like, well.... well, you know! [:-] The reason you think that is because you don't know it's with-held. That is the whole point of not revealing information: so people don't know about it [;)] Come on, they had literally a solid week possibly even two weeks where that is all that was on, then breaking news bulletins, over and over, i do not have cable tv because well its pretty worthless frankly. i suppose if i wanted to listen to all the propaganda and spin or watch robocop or the matrix 500 times a year it might be worth it LOL So i just have whatever comes through the rabbit ears antenna. The government here releases its information usually 30 - 50 years after the fact. If you go on the nsa, and cia websites you can see some of the operations they conducted and review what they hid from us at the time. Around here if its kept secret on a large scale usually big money will be hurt or some high level gov officials or both. Like when we had the coup when they killed kennedy. We dont knwo who pulled the trigger(s) but we do know that vice president johnshon, hunt and several of their cronies orchestrated it and now that everyone is dead the thruth comes out. So our government lies and continues to lie about it to us. Sounds very American. Don't you have somethinge like the Freedom of Information Act of 1968? Or are there certain censorship items? Around here, most things just stay where they are. Since most people aren't "horrible conspiracy" nuts, or go poking around government papers trying to find hidden meaning (aside from Miguel Serrano), things just stay where they are. If you want somthing, you can ask a Senator. They have access to everything.

Tuomas -> RE: UK US (3/30/2007 7:42:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: Tuomas You mean like, turn off the TV? Then I could not watch "Stupid Spoiled Whore Video Playset" from South Park. Sinergy I download all of my SP from the 'net [;)] One of the things I miss from merry ol' London is having a TV that speaks English. [:'(] But I'll be back! (Or convert all these heathens to Englicanism!)

Sinergy -> RE: UK US (3/30/2007 7:49:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tuomas quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: Tuomas You mean like, turn off the TV? Then I could not watch "Stupid Spoiled Whore Video Playset" from South Park. Sinergy I download all of my SP from the 'net [;)] One of the things I miss from merry ol' London is having a TV that speaks English. [:'(] But I'll be back! (Or convert all these heathens to Englicanism!) Mr. Slave just stuck Paris Hilton up his ass. Although the Frog King that lives in there is guiding her to freedom. This show is simply wrong on so many levels. Sinergy

Tuomas -> RE: UK US (3/30/2007 7:58:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy Mr. Slave just stuck Paris Hilton up his ass. Although the Frog King that lives in there is guiding her to freedom. This show is simply wrong on so many levels. Sinergy Yes, and that is exactly why you did NOT have to tell me that [:'(] My poor innocent little brain [:(]

Real0ne -> RE: UK US (3/30/2007 8:22:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation It looks to me like the UK has been fucked over in this inquiry act change so that we will never achieve truth when it comes to public inquiries. As the 'public' we were never going to be privy to all the facts anyway. Yes its suspect and yes it appears like the government in the UK is hiding things but i dont think we will ever know for certain. Ok so we basically agree there... Do you have the right to redress there? We supposedly have that right however it is being denied to us routinely in cases again where the very wealthy would get hurt, gov officials, or if it would cause the gov to giv up some power , and fought vehemently where the government is skirting the Law with "color", fraud, or they believe a certain power should be their to wield and it is threatened. quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation So far i would say not but the strategies of id cards etc have yet to be put in place. Do i personally think they will help? No there will just be a black market to get false ids on. yes we had a long discussion about that didnt we LOL the issue here is if the gov wants snoop at least they have to get warrants and do a little research, check many many sources and the expense is enough that they really are not likely to do it unless they have a pretty good reason to do it. With those id cards it nothing more than type in your name and they can tell you where and what you had for breakfast, where you drove what streets you took, buying patterns, travelling patterns and on and on and on. Of course we all like to think that everyone is an honest joe, but unfortunately that is not the way it is here... They took out a president, JFK they certainly can take me out or anyone else they want to.... Look at o'neil or vince foster... how about john kennedy jr... and of course they will say they tripped on a bullet and the american people are dumb enough to believe it LOL. quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation With respect i truly hope not. I would detest being part of the USA. Well you might feel right at home because our inalienable rights are being dismantled and becoming like the uk no? we do have the fioa but still anything they want to hold back just gets labelled national security... quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation Nope no reason as far as i am aware. I dont know what the government is telling me is the truth but there is very little i can do about that. Its not a case of they werent seen all the way to the station it is a case of we havent been shown the evidence. It may possibly not exist - i cant say. So people did see them then all the way there? i mean there are witnesses? Were they able to describe them? quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation There are inconsistencies but i think there always are. Well not usually ones that defy physics as in the case here. The one where the cameras coincidentally failed just at that moment seems to be a huge coincidence unless they have a habit of failing all the time and on that one i would bet they are very reliable. i mean arent you inundated with them there? quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation Im not overly hot on politics but my impression is they tell us what they think we want to hear or tell us nothing. well they spin it here. Sometimes using double speak like ashcroft calling anyone who stands up for their rights terrorists, that frankly pissed me off and continues to piss me off. its the manner in which he said it that flies by most people. quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation I spoke to some spanish after the bombings as i was over there and the theories varied from just wanting a new government and that al qaeda was behind it and that spanish terrorist groups were behind it. i have to ask the question: why would al queada care less about a coup in spain? i mean its not like they intalled a member there from the alquaeda network! What possible reason would they have to do such a thing? i could understand several governments including spain who may want to replace their government but it sounds like it is a buzz word, blame al queada for everything and we the idiot people will never put it together and figure it out. quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation Do you feel that your government adequately backed up their theories? What in those videos do you feel is incorrect of that the gov disproved or? Definately not. I just cant get in a huge lather about it. Same here. in fact ours opened up such a can of worms that if more americans were paying attention they would never be able to contain them. Unfortunately i believe this country is doomed because the educational standards are so incredible low here, (dont forget they lowered the sat score here, that is made it so a lower grade was 1 up or so.... or if you had an 80 before it was now a 90 so we looked better compared to the asians. quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation According to what ive seen the USA will be one of the biggest beneficaries in the way of arms sales etc. Arms i woudl agree but oil and banking is shared. and bankers really have no country you know. they stay at arms reach and can hop anywhere anytime. quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation Maybe the truth is just better remaining unknown, maybe we have been told the lesser of two evils and to be honest i think let sleeping dogs lie even if its just for the victims families who dont need this dredging up every two minutes. I mean whilst we are on the subjec the big american block buster that was made about 9/11 how distasteful was that and to make it worse america profitted from it too. Well i see that like brushing rape under the table. i would encourage a rape victim to pursue to perp by all means! Otherwise its like a tiger, once they get that first taste human blood they will come back for more and more and next thing you know they teach the kits to do the same and there is an army of them. The same goes for this sort of thing.

Real0ne -> RE: UK US (3/30/2007 8:25:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: Tuomas You mean like, turn off the TV? Then I could not watch "Stupid Spoiled Whore Video Playset" from South Park. Sinergy i did kinda like real sex! when i had it several years ago the only thing i ever watched was the history channel anyway LOL

Real0ne -> RE: UK US (3/30/2007 8:32:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tuomas Sounds very American. Don't you have somethinge like the Freedom of Information Act of 1968? Or are there certain censorship items? Around here, most things just stay where they are. Since most people aren't "horrible conspiracy" nuts, or go poking around government papers trying to find hidden meaning (aside from Miguel Serrano), things just stay where they are. If you want somthing, you can ask a Senator. They have access to everything. yes but that cannot be used for whatever they want to label "national security". well i know literally nothing about chile other than where it is on the map LOL. You may be right that there are no conspiracies in chile though i very much doubt it because money/power/corruption/conspiracy usually always end up in the same orgy bed together.

Sinergy -> RE: UK US (3/30/2007 9:49:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne i do not have cable tv because well its pretty worthless frankly. Dude, Being able to watch South Park and the British version of "Whose Line Is It Anyway" are SO worth it. Sinergy

Tuomas -> RE: UK US (3/30/2007 10:14:09 PM)
There is a British "Whose Line is it Anyway"???? And I didn't know about it!!! Gah!!!!! quote: yes but that cannot be used for whatever they want to label "national security". well i know literally nothing about chile other than where it is on the map LOL. You may be right that there are no conspiracies in chile though i very much doubt it because money/power/corruption/conspiracy usually always end up in the same orgy bed together. Yeah, that national security moniker is interesting. I mean, comparing to other countries that have just as sensitive information, there is no "national security" issue. I don't know why. Back hen I was in the UK, hardly anyone talked about the "government covering up" stuff. I mean, aside from the run-of-the-mill corruption of politicians putting money in their pocket, or their friends' pocket, or buying votes. That's everywhere. But to theorize that there is a conspiracy to kill fellow citizens in an effort to support "corporate interests" seems an almost entirely American persuit. (Although the videos do show that there are British elements, as well.) I should point out, though, that the latest corruption index by Transparency International, put the US as being more corrupt than Chile. So, maybe there is a cause for Americans to be concerned about conspiracies [;)] I like the system they have in Chile, in terms of keeping the government in order. There is an independent institution, called the "Contraloría", through which every bit of legislation must pass, and they have access to everything the government does. Their job is to make sure the government remains honest and above-board (without leaking information). If you feel someone in the government is not doing their job, you can contact the Contraloría, and they will investigate. If something is wrong, they will fire the people responsible, and bring criminal charges if apropriate. They even have the power to impeach the President (which they did in 1973). It doesn't eliminate corruption, obviously (especially with the latest scandals), but it provides a clear, efficient means of dealing with it.

NorthernGent -> RE: UK US (3/31/2007 3:13:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne London--- http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4943675105275097719 Real0ne, good work for taking the time to find that and post it. In terms of the evidence, undoubtedly there are questions needing answers. In terms of the restriction on our freedom, every last drop of that production is bang on. In terms of the reason for the control/restriction, they want to watch and control our every move in order to ensure we are predisposed to consumerism and the market. They want the ability to predict our behaviour and, consequently, direct our behaviour towards consumerism.

NorthernGent -> RE: UK US (3/31/2007 3:27:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation The problem i have with this film is that yes it shows possible inconsistencies, the unfairness of detention without trial, the inquiries act being changed to fit but it also doesnt give any other possible explanations for 7/7. Its ok pulling something apart but you need to back it up too. The narrator quite clearly states that the production is intended to raise questions rather than explain the events of that day or provide the evidence. We don't know what happened that day as we aren't privy to the evidence. There is one point that no one can dispute: our governments of the last 30 years, the police and the media (i.e. our establishment) have form for lying to us when it suits their interests. It is a quality piece of work in terms of asking questions and presenting the wider picture i.e. the climate of fear and the restriction on our freedom are joined at the hip. Real0ne, great post.

NorthernGent -> RE: UK US (3/31/2007 3:45:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tuomas First, the video starts off with repetitive use of words like "diception", "conspiracy", "lies", etc. This is the classical "if you repeat it enough, people will believe it." Do you think that this current government is not capable of lies and deception, or the police and the media? There is evidence in the production. Before you dismiss it, what answer do you have to the following: 1) The British government including forged documents in the WMDs dossier. 2) The police fabricating evidence in a deliberate bid to lock up people for years. 3) The British government using MI5 and M16 to spy on the public - tapping phones etc. There are many questions to be answered. As a society we've been brainwashed into thinking our recent governments and police are upstanding members of the community. If you're interested in the truth, then have another look at that first production and think about what it means and whether or not the examples of corruption should be dismissed so carelessly - I can tell you that the examples given are bang on. quote: ORIGINAL: Tuomas Secondly, part of the thesis of the video is that an "public enquiry is not allowed". Well, I happen to agree with that. I'm an arson investigator, and I can tell you first-hand that "enquiry" of any sort that is not by the people in charge is a waste of time. Even "profesional" people -such as the Police- routinely get things wrong. The concept of a public enquiry is purely that the truth is identified. It doesn't mean that you, I and the bloke down the street undertake the enquiry. It means that honest, objective individuals participate. quote: ORIGINAL: Tuomas Thirdly, when have the papers ever told "the truth, the whole truth, and so help me God"? Never; newspapers sell headlines. Which is part of the point. Don't rely on the media for the truth. This is exactly what the production is saying. quote: ORIGINAL: Tuomas Fourthly, witnesses are considered to be widely unreliable. In the first production? What are you talking about? quote: ORIGINAL: Tuomas Fiftly, even in such innocent investigations as a candle burning somoene's house down, "evidence" is with-held. What has this got to do with the withholding of information which is blatantly in the public interest and has serious consequences in regard to our civil liberties? quote: ORIGINAL: Tuomas So.... conspiracy theory.[:-] What about the public being entitled to know the full story? which we're not getting as information is being withheld. You've posted on this thread which suggests you have an interest in the OP. Based on this, I strongly suggest you watch the first production again and have a long, hard think about what this actually means for civil liberty.

NorthernGent -> RE: UK US (3/31/2007 3:56:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tuomas But to theorize that there is a conspiracy to kill fellow citizens in an effort to support "corporate interests" seems an almost entirely American persuit. (Although the videos do show that there are British elements, as well.) The narrator of the first production was not saying that the government killed people. No, the British have always been distrustful of politicians. Where the likes of Real0ne and I will disagree is that Real0ne would say politicians in general are not to be trusted, whereas I would say some of them are corrupt but we've had some good governments down the years who have genuinely helped our lives and civil liberty. The problem is that the governments of the last 30 years are trying to undo all the good work done by the governments of the first half of the 20th century, and yes - the current lot are slaves to corporate Britain (as were the previous shambles).

meatcleaver -> RE: UK US (3/31/2007 4:02:12 AM)
Where I generally agree with you, I don't think the government of the last thirty years are slaves to corporate Britain. I really do think they actually believe the shit they pedal and corporate Britain can't believe their luck!

NorthernGent -> RE: UK US (3/31/2007 4:23:52 AM)
Meatcleaver, I can see where you're coming from here because Blair does actually think he's a visionary spreading liberal democracy (the very same thing he can't spread at home) and Western values. He seems to be guided by this absolute belief that he is right - he's probably never considered that Western values aren't necessarily better or worse, but merely a different angle. The Conservative government of 1979-1992 - bought by big business from start to finish. For example, under the rules of the competition commission, Murdoch should have been restricted from building his media empire, but he was given cart blanche in return for conservative-friendly propaganda from his newspapers. Now these people really were up to their eyes in corruption. British politics is going to be very interesting in the next 30 years as people begin to realise what is happening.

missturbation -> RE: UK US (3/31/2007 12:34:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation The problem i have with this film is that yes it shows possible inconsistencies, the unfairness of detention without trial, the inquiries act being changed to fit but it also doesnt give any other possible explanations for 7/7. Its ok pulling something apart but you need to back it up too. The narrator quite clearly states that the production is intended to raise questions rather than explain the events of that day or provide the evidence. We don't know what happened that day as we aren't privy to the evidence. There is one point that no one can dispute: our governments of the last 30 years, the police and the media (i.e. our establishment) have form for lying to us when it suits their interests. It is a quality piece of work in terms of asking questions and presenting the wider picture i.e. the climate of fear and the restriction on our freedom are joined at the hip. Real0ne, great post. I agree. However anyone can pull loop holes in a story but being able to provide alternative explanations is an entirely different story. That is my problem with the film, it offers nothing as an alternative.

Real0ne -> RE: UK US (3/31/2007 12:47:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation I agree. However anyone can pull loop holes in a story but being able to provide alternative explanations is an entirely different story. That is my problem with the film, it offers nothing as an alternative. So what do you feel an alternative would be? i always thought the alternative was the governments version?

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