The Vigintillion Dollar Question: How Can We Prevent Wars Like This?

The Vigintillion Dollar Question: How Can We Prevent Wars Like This? (Full Version)

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Real0ne -> The Vigintillion Dollar Question: How Can We Prevent Wars Like This? (3/21/2007 11:38:11 PM)
Oh that is a real numer btw that is a 1 with 63 zeros after it, the largest defined number, our deficit next year! LOL Does anyone know how or what we can/need to do to prevent wars like this from taking place? 58000 in nam, how many before this quagmire is over? Is there a way or is it just hopeless? These things just happen or what?

shynewboy -> RE: The Vigintillion Dollar Question: How Can We Prevent Wars Like This? (3/23/2007 9:29:08 PM)
Well, at the most basic level, wars are fought by people. No public or military support = no war possible. Nationalistic concerns are a big part of the problem. This involves things such as living space, finance, and resources. Or, possibly worse, religion and idealism. Once started, a war can be hard to stop. Investing money and lives in something tends to make future investments of money and lives in the same war more likely. So, for American wars, we have two strategies- Limit the powers that can start wars, or wage war much more scorched earth, kill em all and let god sort em out full war (Basically, fighting to win. This, however, cancause problems with guerilla warfare/terrorism, which is the best way for a small army/group to fight a big army/group). Nam, Iraq and such were limited wars, especially compared to things like the civil war and WW2. If more people at home are involved in a war (more troops, rationing, ect) the war seems to be more likely to either be fought well, or to end quicker. Someone once said that peace is a ideal, theoretical situation inferred from the short times between wars. So, I'm not hugely optimistic.

Sinergy -> RE: The Vigintillion Dollar Question: How Can We Prevent Wars Like This? (3/23/2007 9:38:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: shynewboy Well, at the most basic level, wars are fought by people. No public or military support = no war possible. Nationalistic concerns are a big part of the problem. This involves things such as living space, finance, and resources. Or, possibly worse, religion and idealism. Once started, a war can be hard to stop. Investing money and lives in something tends to make future investments of money and lives in the same war more likely. So, for American wars, we have two strategies- Limit the powers that can start wars, or wage war much more scorched earth, kill em all and let god sort em out full war (Basically, fighting to win. This, however, cancause problems with guerilla warfare/terrorism, which is the best way for a small army/group to fight a big army/group). Nam, Iraq and such were limited wars, especially compared to things like the civil war and WW2. If more people at home are involved in a war (more troops, rationing, ect) the war seems to be more likely to either be fought well, or to end quicker. Someone once said that peace is a ideal, theoretical situation inferred from the short times between wars. So, I'm not hugely optimistic. 1984 and Brave New World As long as you can inflame public opinion about border / non threatening conflicts happening far away, and incite fear in the populace, those in power can make their world as horrible as possible. Sinergy

Lorgrom -> RE: The Vigintillion Dollar Question: How Can We Prevent Wars Like This? (3/23/2007 9:45:03 PM)
War like any kind of conflict seems to be an ingraned part of the human animal. When mankind can evolve to something greater, then we will no longer mankind. Perhaps then we will no longer feel the need for war or conflict. But that wont happen till everyone everwhere evolves. So as long as one person on the plant wages war or conflict, everyone else will have to at least go to war for self preservation. So I never see it happening.

Sinergy -> RE: The Vigintillion Dollar Question: How Can We Prevent Wars Like This? (3/23/2007 9:49:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lorgrom War like any kind of conflict seems to be an ingraned part of the human animal. When mankind can evolve to something greater, then we will no longer mankind. Perhaps then we will no longer feel the need for war or conflict. But that wont happen till everyone everwhere evolves. So as long as one person on the plant wages war or conflict, everyone else will have to at least go to war for self preservation. So I never see it happening. According to Jared Diamond in The Third Chimpanzee, mankind started to go downhill when we went from hunter / gatherering to agriculture. This allowed us to maintain standing armies to steal other people's food as well as kill other people. Made a valid point, really. Sinergy

popeye1250 -> RE: The Vigintillion Dollar Question: How Can We Prevent Wars Like This? (3/23/2007 9:52:46 PM)
How? That's easy! We need to start REALLY minding our own business. And we need to get out of all those "one-way" "alliances" too like with Taiwan. I mean who in here gives a rat's ass if China takes Taiwan back? I mean besides a couple dozen CEOs of large electronics corporations. I laugh at those "Darfur" commercials telling Bush (The U.S.) to "do something" or we'll be "judged by history." Bite me! We're not the world's "911" service, I don't know who started that shit. They think they can run ads on t.v. in this country and we'll send our sons and daughters off to die in some 4th world hellhole because they're being "persecuted?" "Oh sure, we'll send the FOURTH INFANTRY right over, next friday do it for ya?" I couldn't care less. Screw Darfur. You stay out of wars just like you stay off drugs, just say "NO!" And the West has poured in over $400 B into Africa over the last 40 years through the good ol "U.N."! Where has all that money gone? Get a list of luxury villa owners on the French Riviera and other luxury big money areas. THAT's where all the money goes! Oh and to the Mercedes Benz dealers and Gulf Stream dealers. And the lobbyists on "K" street in Washington. That's what your Taxdollars are paying for. JUST SAY NO!

Lorgrom -> RE: The Vigintillion Dollar Question: How Can We Prevent Wars Like This? (3/23/2007 9:53:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: Lorgrom War like any kind of conflict seems to be an ingraned part of the human animal. When mankind can evolve to something greater, then we will no longer mankind. Perhaps then we will no longer feel the need for war or conflict. But that wont happen till everyone everwhere evolves. So as long as one person on the plant wages war or conflict, everyone else will have to at least go to war for self preservation. So I never see it happening. According to Jared Diamond in The Third Chimpanzee, mankind started to go downhill when we went from hunter / gatherering to agriculture. This allowed us to maintain standing armies to steal other people's food as well as kill other people. Made a valid point, really. Sinergy Even as hunter/gatherers we waged a war. Groups/tribes would fight each other over the best hunting grounds and women. ;) Hell even the other great apes fight and go to war for the exact same reasons.

ferryman777 -> RE: The Vigintillion Dollar Question: How Can We Prevent Wars Like This? (3/23/2007 10:02:00 PM)
Great question....my humble opinion of wars...can't be stopped by the citizen faction. The populace controls nothing, has no say in anything. The demonstrations are useless, all the preaching to no avail. It is those in power who have certain agenda, which the masses are not privy to. It is they alone who start and wage wars, for greeds sake, nothing more. Wars for nobel purpose are a fantasy, propaganda marketing to galvanize the populace against the enemy. that is it. The powers that be, have a timetable agenda, and we have nothing to say about it. There is a saying;.....it is a wize puppet master who gives his subjects the illusion of free will. We have nothing to say on the matter. These rants, in forums such as this mean absolutely nothing. The only use is for the gathering of information, to redesign their marketing straigeties.

ferryman777 -> RE: The Vigintillion Dollar Question: How Can We Prevent Wars Like This? (3/23/2007 10:09:48 PM)
sorry, saying no....simply does not work. People will send their sons and daughters, to fight the nobel war, when in reality, the war they die in, is for the rich, and the powerful, the money mongers. No war is, nor has been nobel; they all have been for power, control, wealth , mostly wealth. Say no....you are unpatriotic, lumped in with the enemy. Show your distain...there is a para-military group called Police. The patriot Act 1&2 clearly defines who is what. sorry.....wish it was that easy.

JohnSteed1967 -> RE: The Vigintillion Dollar Question: How Can We Prevent Wars Like This? (3/23/2007 10:13:55 PM)
We cannot prevent war, that is the most base of all human emotions is hatred and anger. However, what we can do is elect leaders that reflect the will of the people and also are wise and honorable men. This president is neither wise or honorable, this war is about his ego and lining the pockets of his friends and associates. when a well respected ambassador, said There is no possiblity for Saddam to have nukes then this president exposed his wife as a CIA Operative, and ended her career, jepordized the lives and the work of her and her recruited network, and other CIA Network resources simply to continue his war and destroy the lives of those that disagreed with him.

shynewboy -> RE: The Vigintillion Dollar Question: How Can We Prevent Wars Like This? (3/23/2007 10:17:18 PM)
Didnt America sort of start itself as the 911 service? WW1, 2, Nam... pretty much for nearly the last 100 years? I do agree with the manipulation of public opinion and how it can/probably has been used to start wars, but if 90% of the population is strongly anti-war, and 40% of that is doing serious protest, such as quitting their jobs and beseiging DC for months on end, I think it would get some sort of results.

ferryman777 -> RE: The Vigintillion Dollar Question: How Can We Prevent Wars Like This? (3/23/2007 10:40:33 PM)
You are likely right; but face it, people will not quit there jobs; the protests will be dismantled, the protestors arrested, faced with patriot act penalties, fines imposed, imprisonment, and result....end of protesting. All our opinions are nil, you have the freedom to your opinion, but if you act on it...jail time, you unpatriotic, enemy supporter. What you say, simply just will not happen. A while ago, there was a journalist, Bill Moyers, he had a terrific show; in one episode he addressed the issue of protesting the government; the actual film footage was thus > soldiers who served in WW2, that or Korea, were denied their GI benefits, they made a demonstration on Washington, now, picture this.....some, what appeared as able bodied men, some on crutches, no legs, no arms, alot in wheelchairs, on gurnies, a peaceful demonstration by all intents and purpose....POLICE, were called to dispearse the soldiers, The mob, Mounted Police swinging batons, and riding their horses into the crowd, POLICE with fire hose, shooting full stream, at the crowd, the men on gurnies, washed away, gurnies overturn, the hapless victims, nothing from the waist down, being pushed along by the Police fire hoses. Wheelchairs the same, once overturned, the soldier, a paraplegic, quadraplegic, being pushed down the street from the blast from the fire hose. Now, these were soldiers who served, defended, went to war, for this country and the then president, soldiers who were mutilated in the service of the USofA. You don't even know of the incindent, nothing is brought to mind, and there it is, on film, no cyber shit effects, not staged, as Bill Moyers aired it. Filmed as it happened in glorious black and white. There is no.....what if......just reality.

ferryman777 -> RE: The Vigintillion Dollar Question: How Can We Prevent Wars Like This? (3/23/2007 11:04:41 PM)
I don't know about war being a basic drive in humankind, however the amount of wars there have been in recorded history, one can certainly draw that conlusion, and it is very hard to dispute the statement. If you look at the uniform attire of the Generals, officers, thoughout history, it appears they truly enjoy 'dressage'. The guy in the muddy trench doesn't look so good however; but back home, he certainly does strut his stuff, or so it would appear. Well, that is, if he doesn't have his arms and legs blown off. The way the para-military police strut, the SWAT teams, again, they certainly adore the Macho dressage, and the power they have to quell the unruly...I don't know, I cannot argue against you, I think they rather enjoy it all; then they get to act the solem, quiet, silent hero. The movie....Born On The Fourth of July....sort of addresses the ever patriot - patriot. Electing honorable men.......well, there again.....Bush was not elected, he was appointed by his brother, in a very suspious ballot. Michael Moore shows in his film, Farenheit 9-11 that in the senate, presided over by Al Gore, the rule is, in such a close contest as this was, one senator is required to step forward and ask for a re-election process. Not a one, showed up.Not even Al Gore, said anything to protest the ballot call. Maybe he was not allowed to because he chaired the commitee. Dosen't matter, No one protested, not a one. A Statesman once said......The only thing necessary for Evil to triumph, is, for good men to do nothing. In the house of Represenatives, the wall, behind the Speakers chair, are two, one on either side, of the symbol, the Facists symbol, 8 or 9 feet high, emblassoned in gold leaf.

subfever -> RE: The Vigintillion Dollar Question: How Can We Prevent Wars Like This? (3/24/2007 1:10:01 AM)
So long as man possesses prejudice and greed, there will be wars. And being able to create money out of thin air within a debt-based monetary system, makes war all too easy to wage. Other than that, Ferryman seems to have hit the nail on the head here. I'm surprised we haven't heard from the usual cast of status-quo defenders yet.

Sanity -> RE: The Vigintillion Dollar Question: How Can We Prevent Wars Like This? (3/24/2007 8:14:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subfever I'm surprised we haven't heard from the usual cast of status-quo defenders yet. Why interrupt your opponent when they're making themselves look bad. For example, ferryman777 says that Americans can't protest... quote: ORIGINAL: ferryman777 You are likely right; but face it, people will not quit there jobs; the protests will be dismantled, the protestors arrested, faced with patriot act penalties, fines imposed, imprisonment, and result....end of protesting. All our opinions are nil, you have the freedom to your opinion, but if you act on it...jail time, you unpatriotic, enemy supporter. What you say, simply just will not happen. How many people really believe that the reason we're not seeing large protests is because protesting isn't allowed in the USA (as ferryman777 suggests). Why even TRY to argue with that sort of logic... there's no reason to... it's already self-defeating, because most people will know that it makes no sense - and that goes for a lot of what I am seeing here this morning. Pity you can't see it yourself, is all.

Real0ne -> RE: The Vigintillion Dollar Question: How Can We Prevent Wars Like This? (3/24/2007 2:01:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: subfever I'm surprised we haven't heard from the usual cast of status-quo defenders yet. Why interrupt your opponent when they're making themselves look bad. For example, ferryman777 says that Americans can't protest... quote: ORIGINAL: ferryman777 You are likely right; but face it, people will not quit there jobs; the protests will be dismantled, the protestors arrested, faced with patriot act penalties, fines imposed, imprisonment, and result....end of protesting. All our opinions are nil, you have the freedom to your opinion, but if you act on it...jail time, you unpatriotic, enemy supporter. What you say, simply just will not happen. How many people really believe that the reason we're not seeing large protests is because protesting isn't allowed in the USA (as ferryman777 suggests). Why even TRY to argue with that sort of logic... there's no reason to... it's already self-defeating, because most people will know that it makes no sense - and that goes for a lot of what I am seeing here this morning. Pity you can't see it yourself, is all. Hmm i got hits that went right off the map so would you like to comment on this as well? DISSING AMERICA'S RIGHT TO DISSENT by Jim Hightower October 22, 2003 When George W was governor of our state, we Texans learned first hand of a deep, anti-democratic flaw in his make-up: He abhors dissent and is totally dismissive not only of dissenters, but also of the people's right to dissent. http://www.topplebush.com/article7_recgovernor.shtml Quarantining dissent How the Secret Service protects Bush from free speech Sunday, January 4, 2004 When President Bush travels around the United States, the Secret Service visits the location ahead of time and orders local police to set up "free speech zones" or "protest zones," where people opposed to Bush policies (and sometimes sign-carrying supporters) are quarantined. These zones routinely succeed in keeping protesters out of presidential sight and outside the view of media covering the event. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/01/04/INGPQ40MB81.DTL Free speech zone: Free speech zones (also known as First Amendment Zones, Free speech cages, and Protest zones) are areas set aside in public places for political activists to exercise their right of free speech in the United States. The First Amendment to the United States Constitution states that "Congress shall make no law... abridging... the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." The existence of free speech zones is based on U.S. court decisions stipulating that the government may regulate the time, place, and manner - but not content - of expression. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zone So we can only protest if we are bound and gagged and in the closet! So where do you place our right to dissent under these circumstances? What sense are you talking about exactly?

ferryman777 -> RE: The Vigintillion Dollar Question: How Can We Prevent Wars Like This? (3/24/2007 2:02:54 PM)
Well, you can prtest, if you wish...however, you must obtain a permit from your local authority, date time, location of said protest, police are assigned to monitor the protest, be sure protestors are within their permited areas. The fees are, ?????? So prtest, but get your 'parade' permit first. A prtest was staged here in Vegas, the protestors carried their signs, and marched down the street, a couple must have gotten thirsty, broke rank went into the 7-11 store, never made it to the door, Police honked them and motioned them to return to the rest of the protestors. Stage a protest as was way back then, like in other countries, you know, where the Police clashed in violent conflict with the crowd. Here, it's organized, permits must be issued, if not, then face arrest. Illogical you say....yeah, you're right....do it, see how far you go.......all the way to lock up. That is what I know, that is what I saw, no theory here; but you may have experienced otherwise.

ferryman777 -> RE: The Vigintillion Dollar Question: How Can We Prevent Wars Like This? (3/24/2007 2:07:22 PM)
Bush visited a little known island...Goree....as did Clinton. Run it up on the net....see what happened. Bush had mostly ALL the inhabitants REMOVED from the island while he was there. They live there, it's their home. He had them removed. Illogical, right, but it was done. Don't take my word, just run the net.

Sinergy -> RE: The Vigintillion Dollar Question: How Can We Prevent Wars Like This? (3/24/2007 2:07:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 And the West has poured in over $400 B into Africa over the last 40 years through the good ol "U.N."! Where has all that money gone? Might want to read "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man." Most of that money was provided as loans, and when the country cannot make the interest payments, the next step is military action. When the new government is installed, they are informed that the debts are not forgiven. Sinergy

Sanity -> RE: The Vigintillion Dollar Question: How Can We Prevent Wars Like This? (3/24/2007 2:14:06 PM)
Topple Bush Dot Com??? You're joking. Neither what you post nor what ferryman posted backs up ferryman's earlier claim that Americans cannot protest. We could dive into your endless unrelated debate, but why... it isn't like there weren't "Free Speech Zones" around John Kerry and the DNC convention, so what is your point. You throw up the most biased links you can find to prove... what, exactly. If that is some kind of a joke I don't get it. Or are you really trying to be serious? quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne Hmm i got hits that went right off the map so would you like to comment on this as well?

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