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Executive Priviledge? - 3/21/2007 12:03:26 PM   
puella


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Im am wondering, if Gonzales, Cheney, Miers et all have all stated that the issue of the firing of the Federal Prosecutors never went before the President, that he never was consulted or part of the decison making... can they refuse testimony on the grounds of Executive Priviledge?  If the testimony they are refusing to share(and the subpoenas Bush says he will reject) was not in any way connected to the president which... does Executive Priviledge even apply?

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta
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RE: Executive Priviledge? - 3/21/2007 12:06:17 PM   
farglebargle


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Nope. And I wonder if the positions aren't also covered under some Federal Employment Law.

Sure, they serve at the pleasure, but if some funding bill makes them obedient to the DOL, then we got us some more mess.

If they are, then the lie about performance being the reason for their removal would be unlawful under that law, too.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Executive Priviledge? - 3/21/2007 12:08:35 PM   
puella


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Better start programming my Tivo for more C-SPAN!!

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

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RE: Executive Priviledge? - 3/21/2007 12:14:14 PM   
Sinergy


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Nixon tried executive privilege to avoid being forced to release the tapes.  According to the court, Nixon was not allowed by Constitutional Law to determine how Executive Privilege was defined. 

I suspect Monkeyboy and his gang will try the same approach.

Justice Burger summed it up in the following.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/printout/0,8816,879409,00.html

The finding by the Supreme Court Justices was unanimous, and included 3 Nixon appointees.  What was interesting about their unanimous findings is that they argued that the Constitution specifically prohibited the Executive branch from doing the Judiciary branch's job. 

In the words of the Vandals, "Put that on your fucking toast!"

To answer your question, I imagine they will all attempt to do so.  Presumably it wont work any better for them.

Sinergy


Sinergy

_____________________________

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David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Executive Priviledge? - 3/21/2007 12:15:08 PM   
mnottertail


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Well this is a little stickier to muck around in and everyone can be thrown to the wolves if need be, takes everybodies mind off of Haliburton and outsourcing seaports and the wars and the terrorists not getting hunted down.....change of focus----just wagging the dog.

Ron

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RE: Executive Priviledge? - 3/21/2007 12:19:05 PM   
SirDiscipliner69


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Gonzalez was the predetermined fall guy in the decided course of action by Rove who was the mastermind behind the last political campaign of Bush

There is no Presidental rights when the Congress and public are demanding things be out in the open and under public scrutiny and under oath.

Bush seems to have a problem with that "oath" thing

George Bush's Watergate and the numerous cover-ups.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_896438/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#905893


Everyone one knows that "Friends Don't Let Friends Torture Republicans"

Ross
©º°¨¨°º©

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RE: Executive Priviledge? - 3/21/2007 12:24:57 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:

Gonzalez was the predetermined fall guy in the decided course of action by Rove


I saw this meme somewhere else, earlier. Hi-Larious.

Suggesting that the guy responsible for legitimizing torture is a fall-guy, and not properly brought down by is own crimes is laughable.

Saying "I would never, ever make a change in a United States attorney for political reasons or if it would in any way jeopardize an ongoing serious investigation. I just would not do it." (Testimony of Attorney General Alberto Gonzales to the Senate Judiciary Committee, 1/18/07) and then tossing Lam out the door because she was too effective in prosecuting crooked congressmen,

"The U.S. attorney in San Diego notified the Justice Department of search warrants in a Republican bribery scandal last May 10, one day before the attorney general's chief of staff warned the White House of a 'real problem' with her, a Democratic senator said yesterday. The prosecutor, Carol S. Lam, was dismissed seven months later as part of an effort by the Justice Department and the White House to fire eight U.S. attorneys." (WashingtonPost, 3/19/07)





_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Executive Priviledge? - 3/21/2007 1:24:03 PM   
SirDiscipliner69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

Gonzalez was the predetermined fall guy in the decided course of action by Rove


I saw this meme somewhere else, earlier. Hi-Larious.


Actually I have been saying it all along...not repeating what the media is saying

So let Rove and Miers testify under oath....

Not that the Republicans have a problem telling the truth in the past.

Everyone one knows that "Friends Don't Let Friends Torture Republicans"

Ross
©º°¨¨°º©




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RE: Executive Priviledge? - 3/21/2007 5:09:01 PM   
puella


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That is just the problem, GW won't allow them to testify under oath, nor will he allow any public records of their testimony, nor will he allow them called back at a later point (should inconsistencies with their statements arise with the sworn testimony of others, or as more doumental evidence is admitted... so that even if they perjur themselves, they will not be held accountable), no will he allow for any transcript of the testimony be taken (no record).



_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

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RE: Executive Priviledge? - 3/21/2007 5:13:54 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

That is just the problem, GW won't allow them to testify under oath, nor will he allow any public records of their testimony, nor will he allow them called back at a later point (should inconsistencies with their statements arise with the sworn testimony of others, or as more doumental evidence is admitted... so that even if they perjur themselves, they will not be held accountable), no will he allow for any transcript of the testimony be taken (no record).




He will have no choice.

Unless a) he pardons all of them or b) brings the troops home and has the American version of Kristallnacht.

One of the reasons I suspect the Democrats are biding their time going after them is because we need to remove him from power before we can bring him up on charges.

Sinergy

p.s. I was wondering, today, do they allow ex-Presidents to have Secret Service protection in the Big House?


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Executive Priviledge? - 3/21/2007 5:27:44 PM   
farglebargle


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When Push comes to Shove, the Wimp will fold.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Executive Priviledge? - 3/21/2007 7:10:22 PM   
UtopianRanger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

Better start programming my Tivo for more C-SPAN!!


You do know that when you come back with your synopsis, more Freudian attempts to get you to visit the Pacific Northwest will come your way


- R






< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 3/21/2007 7:12:19 PM >


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-General George S. Patton


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RE: Executive Priviledge? - 3/21/2007 7:16:08 PM   
puella


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Freudian, eh? hehe

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

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RE: Executive Priviledge? - 3/21/2007 7:29:14 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

When Push comes to Shove, the Wimp will fold.




Did you know it is physically impossible to fold a piece of paper in half, no matter what kind, more than 7 times?

As far as the Wimp is concerned, folding wont help him.  He is fucked unless he can pin it all on somebody else, and apparently his administration are abandoning his sinking ship.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Executive Priviledge? - 3/21/2007 7:30:24 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Well this is a little stickier to muck around in and everyone can be thrown to the wolves if need be, takes everybodies mind off of Haliburton and outsourcing seaports and the wars and the terrorists not getting hunted down.....change of focus----just wagging the dog.

Ron


right on target imo and so many people thought gw was a dumb ass!


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: Executive Priviledge? - 3/21/2007 7:34:05 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Did you know it is physically impossible to fold a piece of paper in half, no matter what kind, more than 7 times?

Sinergy


depends on if you got a hydraulic press or not :)

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Sinergy)
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RE: Executive Priviledge? - 3/22/2007 4:08:19 AM   
puella


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Having utilized my favorite gadget (Tivo!!!!) I watched today's press briefing and was glad to see the rather lapdog white house press corps asking about this issue.  Glenn Greenwald asked how Tony Snow could takes such a 180 on his position of Executive Priviledge...

Q So, Tony, back when President Clinton was citing executive privilege to keep internal deliberations in that White House from being talked about in Congress, you wrote -- But you wrote quite eloquently about this. You said, "Taken to its logical extreme, that position would make it impossible for citizens to hold the chief executive accountable. We would have a constitutional right to a cover up."


I will except that passage from the column written by Snow:


“Executive Privilege is a Dodge”:


Evidently, Mr. Clinton wants to shield virtually any communications that take place within the White House compound on the theory that all such talk contributes in some way, shape or form to the continuing success and harmony of an administration. Taken to its logical extreme, that position would make it impossible for citizens to hold a chief executive accountable for anything. He would have a constitutional right to cover up.
 
Chances are that the courts will hurl such a claim out, but it will take time.

One gets the impression that Team Clinton values its survival more than most people want justice and thus will delay without qualm. But as the clock ticks, the public’s faith in Mr. Clinton will ebb away for a simple reason: Most of us want no part of a president who is cynical enough to use the majesty of his office to evade the one thing he is sworn to uphold — the rule of law....) ironic.

Given that statement was regarding an investigation into Clinton lying about a personal sexual matter with no impact on our country or Constitution, the fact that he is unwilling to apply that same logic to an issue regarding the politicization of our system of justice seems (wait for it

As I believe fargle pointed out, the most notable case on Executive Privilege comes from the Supreme Court case regarding Nixon's abuses of that murky privilege (which ended up being the turning point of his Presidency's demise).

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=418&invol=683





However, neither the doctrine of separation of powers, nor the need for confidentiality of high-level communications, without more, can sustain an absolute, unqualified Presidential privilege of immunity from judicial process under all circumstances. The President's need for complete candor and objectivity from advisers calls for great deference from the courts. However, when the privilege depends solely on the broad, undifferentiated claim of public interest in the confidentiality of such conversations, a confrontation with other values arises. Absent a claim of need to protect military, diplomatic, or sensitive national security secrets, we find it difficult to accept the argument that even the very important interest in confidentiality of Presidential communications is significantly diminished by production of such material for in camera inspection with all the protection that a district court will be obliged to provide. [418 U.S. 683, 707]  
 
The impediment that an absolute, unqualified privilege would place in the way of the primary constitutional duty of the Judicial Branch to do justice in criminal prosecutions would plainly conflict with the function of the courts under Art. III. In designing the structure of our Government and dividing and allocating the sovereign power among three co-equal branches, the Framers of the Constitution sought to provide a comprehensive system, but the separate powers were not intended to operate with absolute independence.






< Message edited by puella -- 3/22/2007 4:09:03 AM >


_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

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RE: Executive Priviledge? - 3/22/2007 5:32:56 AM   
puella


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Furthermore, stating that it goes against precedent to have presidential aids and advisors testify is a blatant falsehood. 


White House Press Secretary Tony Snow: Well, as you know, Ed, it has been traditional in all White Houses not to have staffers testify on Capitol Hill.

White House Counselor Dan Bartlett: I find it highly unlikely that a member of the White House staff would testify publicly to these matters.

House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-OH): No, I think you’re violating a precedent there that should not be violated. … I believe that under the separation of powers, there are limits to the extent to which Congress can subpoena or demand testimony from those who were closest to the president.

The precedent is that they DO testify, and in fact have done so 47 times.


Harold Ickes, Assistant to the President and Deputy Chief of Staff - 7/28/94
George Stephanopoulos, Senior Adviser to the President for Policy and Strategy - 8/4/94
John Podesta, Assistant to the President and Staff Secretary - 8/5/94
Bruce R. Lindsey, Assistant to the President and Deputy Counsel to the President - 1/16/96
Samuel Berger, Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs - 9/11/97
Beth Nolan, Counsel to the President - 5/4/00

From the Library of Congress Congressional Research Service:
Occasionally, these executive branch officials playing a presidential advisory
role have been called upon to testify before congressional committees and
subcommittees. Sometimes, such invited appearances have been prompted by allegations of personal misconduct on the part of the official, but they have also included instances when accountability for policymaking and administrative or managerial actions have instigated the request for testimony. Because such appearances before congressional committees or subcommittees seemingly could - result in demands for advice proffered to the President, or the disclosure — inadvertent or otherwise — of such advice, there has been resistance, from time to time, by the Chief Executive to allowing such testimony.

Congress has a constitutionally rooted right of access to the information it needs to perform its Article I legislative and oversight functions. Generally, a
congressional committee with jurisdiction over the subject matter, which is
conducting an authorized investigation for legislative or oversight purposes, has a right to information held by the executive branch in the absence of either a valid claim of constitutional privilege by the executive or a statutory provision whereby Congress has limited its constitutional right to information.



_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

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RE: Executive Priviledge? - 3/22/2007 5:56:21 AM   
farglebargle


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quote:


Q There is one email from November 15th from Mr. Sampson to Harriet Miers, I believe, "Who will determine whether this requires the President's attention?"

MR. SNOW: Right.

Q And then there's a gap in emails. Was there any -- perhaps any emails about the President in there? And did the President have to sign off on this? Because the question was raised --

MR. SNOW: The President has no recollection of this ever being raised with him.


NEVER being raised with The President? How exactly would ExecPriv cover something done by "Overzealous Staffers without knowledge or consent of their boss?"

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Executive Priviledge? - 3/22/2007 9:20:09 AM   
luckydog1


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But Puella, what law did he break?  In the cases you cited, Clinton was trying to evade prosecution in a civil trial, which he eventually paid a settlement to make go away.  the attorneys (sp?) sit a the pleasure of the president, and can be fired at whim.  Hual him into court, and you can get all the testimony you want.

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