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Real-Life Gender Roles - 3/11/2007 4:59:30 PM

PerfectToy

Posts: 7
Joined: 5/22/2005
Status: offline

So, I'm a submissive male, pretty much completely in the closet about it. And I've been having a lot of vanilla relationships with girls lately. Which is fine. But I'm realizing that, in order to have any kind of success in dating in a non-kink environment, I've really had to train myself to be a tad on the aggressive, pro-active side. making the first move, being the pursuer. Which is a bit against my nature, being a submissive. I've found that I can adopt my assigned gender role in order to sort of navigate real-world dating situations.It's not my ideal scenario, but its allowed me to have some quality relationships with some nice girls.

Some girls prefer a more dominant male. And, because as a sub, I'm really into pleasing women, I've indulged some of these wishes, making myself more aggresisve than I normally woudl be. This makes me think that due to an eagerness to please, I've put my own sexual fantasies aside to please my gal. Which means I've performed an act of submission, but it required me to be more dominant. Seems odd.

So I guess I'm being neuotic about gender roles and the irony of submissive/dominant fantasies.If you're eager to please women, and if some women prefer a strong male figure, than do you comply as a sub and become less submissive for her sake?

Post #: 1

RE: Real-Life Gender Roles - 3/11/2007 5:05:24 PM

litleone8620

Posts: 3669
Joined: 6/12/2006
Status: offline

I'm going to answer this from a submissive female's point of view.

In my past vanilla roles, i've not only pushed men into the dominant role (if it was against their nature, i have no idea), but i've also been put into the dominant role. I hated it, and of course felt like i wasn't being true to myself, yadda, yadda, yadda.

I soon realized that i would rather be alone than date vanilla men that would put me in a role i wasn't comfortable in, or me put them in a role they aren't comfortable with.

I think you just have to figure out what is most important to you.

_____________________________

He who laughs last didn't get the joke

We have enough youth. How about a fountain of smart?

(in reply to PerfectToy)

Post #: 2

RE: Real-Life Gender Roles - 3/11/2007 5:17:21 PM

SilverShadows

Posts: 558
Joined: 2/15/2007
Status: offline

I understand the impulse to put on that Dominant veneer. The problem I see is that once you have a relationship established are you going to be comfortable in the role you have created for yourself. The other person is going to expect you to continue in the role.

On your side, my experience is that thwarting your nature gender identity is a good way to really mess yourself up inside.

_____________________________

The Countess

Το αίμα είναι η ζωή
Cruor est Vita
Sînge is art.hot. Viaţă
Vér van a Élet

Come Kiss the Guillotine
Come Taste the Gasoline

(in reply to PerfectToy)

Post #: 3

RE: Real-Life Gender Roles - 3/11/2007 5:59:10 PM

MasterFireMaam

Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline

Why are you dating outside the community if the community is more tolerant of who you are naturally?

Master Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to PerfectToy)

Post #: 4

RE: Real-Life Gender Roles - 3/11/2007 6:03:16 PM

DiurnalVampire

Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

Personally, I think training yourself to be more dominant to please the vanilla women you are dating is just living a lie. It isnt who you are, its an act you learn to make them happy. And as an act, it isnt going to work for long. What you need to do is find either a more aggresssive vanilla female, or start dating within the lifestyle community. In order to be truly happy in a relationship, you have to be yourself. It is not being submissive to learn to act dominant to please your partner.

DV

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

Post #: 5

RE: Real-Life Gender Roles - 3/11/2007 6:09:44 PM

mstrjx

Posts: 2045
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline

I suppose I could chip in from the standpoint of a dominant male. Then, I'll duck for the shitstorm it will likely cause.

My modus all along has been about pleasing women. It turns out, however, within the Lifestyle the partners I've had have all been deeply submissive women. Some of them painsluts, to boot. Hence, I've done a whole lot of pleasing women by beating them. Black, blue, stripes, plaid. They like it, and I'm really good at it, so I suppose it works well for both of us. But that's play.

Since they are also submissive, there is that whole 'order taking and giving' thing. Structure, and all that. I'm a pretty bright guy with a voice that people apparently enjoy listening to, so I can get inside the heads and hearts of my partners without any effort whatsoever. I give out orgasms like they're candy bars. I don't ask for much in return.

But at the end of the day, I'm keeping them happy (even while suffering or anguished or uncomfortable or whatever else I dream up), which keeps me happy.

16 years ago, when I first started, I could have been anything I wanted to be. (Really, I still could. I have no qualms.) One thing I recognized is that it takes someone rather clever to perform emotional brain surgery. I didn't know any ladies at the time that would have ever been able to get inside my head. I still don't, to tell you the truth.

So here I am after all these years, still dominating (although on hiatus at the moment). Like I said, my mental toughness could never allow me to be 'submissive', but that same mental toughness would easily allow me to become a slave. (I would be able to keep myself on point lacking a strong enough character from a partner. and surrendering is SO much easier than negotiating limits and boundaries.)

Now, if 'pleasing' is enough to satisfy you, then certainly a path like mine works well. (It just seems like an odd way of going about things.) If, however, part of your desire for submission is on a physical level (bondage, pain and the like), then you're rather out of luck there. You might have to keep it to your fantasies.

I know all about that, too.

Good luck.

Jeff

_____________________________

Know thyself. It's the best gift you can ever give yourself.

(in reply to PerfectToy)

Post #: 6

RE: Real-Life Gender Roles - 3/11/2007 6:39:33 PM

xmillicentx

Posts: 4
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

If you are uncomfortable with the role that you are playing, then it's not who you are. I tend to switch back and forth- submissive in the bedroom- but when it comes to the persual I'm usually the one who's making it happen. This doesn't really faze me though simply because mentally I am more dominant and I see nothing wrong with that because I'm comfortable there.
You have to stay true to who you are, otherwise it won't be a enjoyable relationship.

(in reply to PerfectToy)

Post #: 7

RE: Real-Life Gender Roles - 3/11/2007 7:51:31 PM

Lashra

Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline

My male sub lived the lie of being a dominant for many years. In fact he was gorean and had a slave when he realized that it wasn't who he truly was. Why did he do it? Because he felt that women wanted a dominant man and the philosophy of that group pretty much teachs that. It took a big toll on him and his slave, to whom he was married to at the time. Now they are divorced and for a long time he was really down on himself for living a lie.

He now is happy and content is his own skin rather than pretending to be something he is not. So as I've said many times, don't pretend to be something you are not just to please someone else. Be true to YOUR own individual nature and the hell with the gender roles, they are garbage.

~Lashra

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

(in reply to PerfectToy)

Post #: 8

RE: Real-Life Gender Roles - 3/11/2007 8:49:33 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

It's an overwhelmingly common stereotype, but a false one nonetheless that submissive = submissive personality and dominant = dominant personality.

There are many slaves with traditionally aggressive/dominant personalities. And many masters with traditionally passive/submissive personality traits.

The fact is, a relationship will only work if it's YOU in the relationship- not some stereotypical representation of you. Playing to the stereotype only ensures that everyone ends up frustrated.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Lashra)

Post #: 9

RE: Real-Life Gender Roles - 3/12/2007 5:24:11 AM

petdave

Posts: 2479
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PerfectToy
So I guess I'm being neuotic about gender roles and the irony of submissive/dominant fantasies.If you're eager to please women, and if some women prefer a strong male figure, than do you comply as a sub and become less submissive for her sake?

i'm going to go against the grain and say "yes".

It's been my observation that most Dominant Women are not looking for someone who is submissive all the time, to everyone. Being outwardly submissive on first contact is almost certain doom in approaching a Femdom. As they say in the sales business (and what is dating if not sales?), "you gotta fake it till you make it!"

Now, this could mean that you end up falling in love with a vanilla woman, and spend your life pretending to be on the dominant side of normal to fulfill your role as a Man(tm), but it's better than dying alone...

...dave

(in reply to PerfectToy)

Post #: 10

RE: Real-Life Gender Roles - 3/12/2007 6:00:34 AM

BeachMystress

Posts: 2156
Joined: 4/3/2004
From: Naples Island- Long Beach CA - Southern California
Status: offline

A lot of my Domme friends expect the sub to still be the pursuer. They want him to instigate contact, ask her to go out, bring flowers, think of neat places to take her and such. They are then disappointed when the subs they find end up being too aggressive, expect the fantasy to be about them and "top from below." They highly envy my submissive-pleaser husband. Yet, before I met him, several of them didn't give him a second look. He would never think to presume to ask a woman out unless she made it very clear to him that she wanted to go out with him. . aka, ask him out as I did. I not only had to make the first move in all facets, including tripping him and riding him to the floor, but I still am the guiding force in our lives. I can't imagine it any other way.

And yes, you can do as you are and be submissive in your own heart without the other person ever realizing it. I recommend that route to men who are in a vanilla marriage they are unwilling to end. It becomes an empty form of submission for many, as the acknowledgement that they are submitting is part of what many need to be fulfilled. As you are not yet committed to a vanilla woman, I strongly suggest you find someone who is also interested in BDSM. Don't shoot yourself in the foot and realize in 15 years, as you look at your vanilla wife, that you can no longer live without a woman being actively involved with the power exchange relationship.

< Message edited by BeachMystress -- 3/12/2007 6:01:36 AM >

_____________________________

Beach Mystress
*Do not threaten the weak. Intimidate the strong. ~ Stevenson*
http://beachmystress.jigsy.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/beachmystress/

(in reply to PerfectToy)

Post #: 11

RE: Real-Life Gender Roles - 3/12/2007 6:05:16 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

If you are happy playing a gender role, then it is perfectly good to play that role.

If you are unhappy, then you need to stop and consider if the benefits outweigh the negatives.

Personally I think being unhappy leads to all sort of problems in life ranging from emotional to relationship to physical and spiritual. I try to not do things that make me unhappy and if I must for survival's sake, I try to minimumize the amount of time an energy in that situation.

Achieving this may require that you step into the bdsm community, it may require that you be more open and out, those things can be scary. Scary can be short-term however and you may find that your unhappiness is less afterwards.

The only way to know is to try it, really try it for a year or more and get involved in an SM organization or munch group or educational venue. Think about it this way, you've tried the mundane and vanilla and you don't read particularly happy. If you want things to change then you must do things to change them.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to PerfectToy)

Post #: 12

RE: Real-Life Gender Roles - 3/12/2007 6:52:16 AM

sambamanslilgirl

Posts: 10926
Joined: 2/5/2007
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

though i'm more submissive than dominant, i've met men who are submissive in their vanilla life seeking a dominant goddess. for most of them it's not a sexual kink but a lifestyle they tend to keep a secret because of their job and/or martial situation. the men i've met loved putting me on a pedestal ...begging to be trampled, humiliated, spanked, abused, cuckold (which i've found i'm very good at doing), penis and testicle torture,or assigned tasks like wearing woman's lingerie to court (the attorney actually did under his suit).

as for me personally - i tend to seek a man who is a little of both in nature however not too controlling as a dominant. my stubborn personality would definitely collide against his and neither one of us would have a lasting relationship.

_____________________________

...2011 - year of the fabulous rock star life ...and i do it so well...

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Post #: 13

RE: Real-Life Gender Roles - 3/12/2007 7:35:21 AM

Devilslilsister

Posts: 1262
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline

i'm a submissive female and in my vanilla relationships (all but 3) i've pretty much played the dominant role. i just take over. Its like a light switch. i become interested.... i gradually take control... i become not interested.

The issue i see with pulling the dominant part in a vanilla relationship (when you arent) is that in the long run, it wont work out. Sure its good for "now" and heck it can be fun. Trust me, i giggled alot (albeit quietly) when i had these guys coming at my beck and call. Heck, i kicked one out of his own bed.

It also, can turn out to be rude. i probably hurt the lot of them, because when it came down to it - i just had no long term interest. A few of them are still mad at me = ( The fact of the matter is, that when a strong dominant male came into my life... i just dropped them. Not on purpose, just happened that way. Some one came along that caught my attention. Even when you try and lay things out straight.. it doesnt really work. They get feelings, you dont. Granted i cared about them, but well this dominant guy walked into my life and well shit happens.

So i guess the real question is........... while you are dating these vanilla women and taking on the dominant role - what are you going to do when a strong dominant woman walks into your life? Whose going to get hurt?

< Message edited by Devilslilsister -- 3/12/2007 7:36:42 AM >

_____________________________

My ability to cope with BS is at an all time low - me

i may look like i'm doing nothing, but i'm very busy at a cellular level

(in reply to sambamanslilgirl)

Post #: 14

RE: Real-Life Gender Roles - 3/12/2007 9:42:24 AM

PerfectToy

Posts: 7
Joined: 5/22/2005
Status: offline

Wow, thanks for all of the feedback. Very interesting indeed. I guess it all comes down to long term goals and short term satisfaction. If I intend to get laid at all, I'm gonna have to keep my submissive, passive nature in check and be outgoing and strong and agressively pursue women. It's been my experience that, if you don't approach them, someone else will. A buyer's market, if you will...

So while I'm seeking out a real, hopefully longterm relationship with a domme, I have to keep in mind the numbers game. There are a ton of sub males and not that many domme females. While I continue on the search, I have to keep myself satisfied in the meantime. Frustrating, yeah, but it's sort of a realistic compromise.

(in reply to Devilslilsister)

Post #: 15

RE: Real-Life Gender Roles - 3/12/2007 9:44:49 AM

PerfectToy

Posts: 7
Joined: 5/22/2005
Status: offline

Wow, thanks for all of the feedback. Very interesting indeed. I guess it all comes down to long term goals and short term satisfaction. If I intend to get laid at all, I'm gonna have to keep my submissive, passive nature in check and be outgoing and strong and agressively pursue women. It's been my experience that, if you don't approach them, someone else will. A buyer's market, if you will...

So while I'm seeking out a real, hopefully longterm relationship with a domme, I have to keep in mind the numbers game. There are a ton of sub males and not that many domme females. While I continue on the search, I have to keep myself satisfied in the meantime. Frustrating, yeah, but it's sort of a realistic compromise.

(in reply to Devilslilsister)

Post #: 16

RE: Real-Life Gender Roles - 3/12/2007 12:11:57 PM

Devilslilsister

Posts: 1262
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline

i understand the numbers game. There's even a difference between dominant and vanilla men running around. Like i said, its about whose going to get hurt. If you can be a real a - hole like me and write it off as them, then no worries. (course the conscious does get you in the future) BUT - i suppose if yer just looking to get laid and everyone knows it while you keep your eyes open, when that Lady walks into your life - yer all good.

_____________________________

My ability to cope with BS is at an all time low - me

i may look like i'm doing nothing, but i'm very busy at a cellular level

(in reply to PerfectToy)

Post #: 17

RE: Real-Life Gender Roles - 3/12/2007 2:57:03 PM

SDFemDom4cuck

Posts: 2809
Joined: 5/23/2005
From: P'burgh PA
Status: offline

I know this isn't answering your question but I can't help but ppoint out a few things instead. My question would be why are you dating within the vanilla community if you know and accept you're submissive? By putting on a mask or playing a role then you're not only lying to yourself but the women you're dating. When a vanilla dating relationship becomes serious will you then confess to being submissive or simply continue to play the role and continue to live a lie? How and when will you finally be honest with the other person and yourself about who and what it is that you need in a relationship?

This all may seem rather harsh but I've seen the disaster this can cause. A couple I've known for almost 20 years recently divorced. I always thought he had a sub vibe to him but he never admitted it even knowing the lifestyle I'm a part of. I ran into him 6 months ago post divorce and we sat and talked about the truth behind why they divorced. He realized he was almost 40 and had spent 20 years married and living a lie regarding what he needed in a relationship/marriage. So not only did he waste 20 years of his life, but 20 years of hers, their families are devastated as are their children. He still hasn't confessed the true reason why he finally left her so of course she blames herself. It's a complete and utter mess all around.

the questions you need to ask are whether or not you can live without the lifestyle? whether or not it would be fair to either yourself or the other person you end up having a relationship with for you to be living that enormous of a lie? You're 24, there are alot of years left for you to live...how do you truly want to live them?

As for whether or not you should comply...I say no. It isn't who and what you are to be Dominant. It's only going to end up making you miserable to continue to play a role that you arent' comfortable playing.

_____________________________

Ms Jo

She dealt her pretty words like Blades -
How glittering they shone -
And every One unbared a Nerve
Or wantoned with a Bone -

I want a sensitive man - one who'll cry when I hit him.

(in reply to PerfectToy)

Post #: 18

RE: Real-Life Gender Roles - 3/12/2007 3:10:39 PM

SDFemDom4cuck

Posts: 2809
Joined: 5/23/2005
From: P'burgh PA
Status: offline

You also might like to wander over to the CIAW thread and peruse there a bit...a few ideas expressed on being in a marriage/relationship with a vanilla partner and being anything but vanilla.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_884671/tm.htm

_____________________________

Ms Jo

She dealt her pretty words like Blades -
How glittering they shone -
And every One unbared a Nerve
Or wantoned with a Bone -

I want a sensitive man - one who'll cry when I hit him.

(in reply to PerfectToy)

Post #: 19

RE: Real-Life Gender Roles - 3/12/2007 3:47:16 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

I've read this thread with a great amount of interest. As a Domme, I accept (especially when connected with those that are Gor) that there will always be some who view Me, can even acknowledge Me as being Domme, and yet, still think that somewhere within Me as female, I am submissive. Because of this empathy, I most certainly understand the issue you face. There are many that equate gender with role. I am not saying that is a correct way of thinking. I'm saying it is prevelent in both worlds.

In a sense, you could, in fact, continue along this same path, and find happiness. The question is, would it be complete happiness? Many stay for years in vanilla marriages, raise families, etc., and have a degree of happiness. Still, it is not complete happiness, as there is a part of you that is unfulfilled. That submissive nature is not nurished or allowed to express itself. Would there come a point where the two inner parts of yourself would both struggle? It happens.

I heartily agree with the others here who have suggested that you get out into the community and see what is out there. Forget about the "numbers game" as you put it, as to the number of Dommes compared to the number of male subs. If you give in to that, you have doomed the idea from the start. If the idea fails, you have lost nothing more than what you do not have to begin with, and you can continue dating in the vanilla "to get laid" as you put it.

My best of luck to you in your journey.

(in reply to SDFemDom4cuck)

Post #: 20

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