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nuances of power exchange - 3/10/2007 7:36:23 PM

hisannabelle

Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
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if in a d/s long-term relationship, that's a "24/7" power exchange...do you feel the need to always justify the nuances of the exchange? i'm afraid i may not be able to explain this very well, so i'll use a recent example from the gorean forums...there was a thread about whether or not a slave could be a mother, because of the possible priority conflicts. there seemed to be two different pro-mom camps of thought...one that the slave's first priority is her master, but his first priority is the children's well-being, so in that way, the children still take a primary position, and the other being that it's okay for the slave to see the children as the first priority and the master as the second.

my question isn't about that specific situation, but about issues like this in general. along that same vein, would it be enough for you to know that the kids come first, or do you need to find a way to explain your submission/dominance and how it works within that framework (like by saying that the master comes first, but the master's first priority is the children/the slave's well being - and by extension the kids' - so therefore the kids still are primary concern)? other issues where i think this kind of thing comes up often are when discussing limits, or lack thereof, and financial submission (not necessarily speaking of the "buy me stuff" kind, but dominants who control their submissive's bank accounts as part of the control over the whole relationship). is it enough for you to just say that's what is, or to explore the way it manifests physically, emotionally, and psychologically within your relationship?

god, i don't think i'm making ANY sense or getting this across properly, but i'll try.

Post #: 1

RE: nuances of power exchange - 3/10/2007 8:12:59 PM

mstrjx

Posts: 2045
Joined: 11/27/2005
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I suppose I've been fortunate in that very few (and certainly none of my live-in) relationships have had any distractions.

There's work, and there's home. At home the dynamic is in place. It doesn't get much easier than that.

Jeff

_____________________________

Know thyself. It's the best gift you can ever give yourself.

(in reply to hisannabelle)

Post #: 2

RE: nuances of power exchange - 3/10/2007 8:16:06 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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Well, as always, Ds and Ms to me are not about power exchange, but about authority transfer.

Nonetheless, I think those nuances should be understood and agreed upon if they will have an impact on the relationship. Now, it's impossible t talk about EVERY possible instance of future effects on a relationship, so sometimes life will toss you a wrinkle and you have to work it out. This is why relationships based on rules that are dependent upon circumstances can be so hard to work through when life makes changes (and it always does).

Rules based on dynamics however can FLOW through any sort of change. That's why to me it's about "ultimate authority" in a Ms situation. The master can at any time delegate authority to the slave in any manner they so wish. But they still retain ultimate authority.

As always, if it's important to you (and one would hope procreating and financial issues are important to responsible adults) it should be discussed and understood mutually.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to hisannabelle)

Post #: 3

RE: nuances of power exchange - 3/10/2007 8:17:21 PM

DiurnalVampire

Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
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Angel and I are in a very good power exchange. School comes first, and it limits our time together pretty badly. However, it doesnt change the fact that I am in control at all times. He is mine, even if we arent together constantly. I dont find it necessary to have constant confirmation of that, it is just something I know.

DV

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to mstrjx)

Post #: 4

RE: nuances of power exchange - 3/10/2007 8:55:34 PM

Hime

Posts: 149
Joined: 10/31/2006
From: Vegas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle
<snip> would it be enough for you to know that the kids come first, or do you need to find a way to explain your submission/dominance and how it works within that framework (like by saying that the master comes first, but the master's first priority is the children/the slave's well being - and by extension the kids' - so therefore the kids still are primary concern)? <snip>

Expectations really need to be discussed no matter how simple or common sense they may be. It not only gets the expectations out on the table, it allows the two of you to discuss their level of importance and priority within the relationship. If the two of you have done it before, there is certainly no harm in going over them again.

As for children....
In a loving relationship, offspring are the physical embodiments of the Union. They hold the promise that a part of your master and yourself live on long after the two of you are gone. So yes, in my opinion they become "priorities" and treasures to be protected.

~ xoxo

< Message edited by Hime -- 3/10/2007 9:50:23 PM >

(in reply to hisannabelle)

Post #: 5

RE: nuances of power exchange - 3/10/2007 9:24:47 PM

Lashra

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Joined: 2/9/2006
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My child comes before anyone or anything, myself included. My submissive knows this and accepts it because I wouldn't have entered into the relationship any other way. IMO a woman who puts her children second to anyone shouldn't win the mother of the year award.

~Lashra

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

(in reply to Hime)

Post #: 6

RE: nuances of power exchange - 3/10/2007 10:19:57 PM

StacyCat

Posts: 112
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DiurnalVampire

Angel and I are in a very good power exchange. School comes first, and it limits our time together pretty badly. However, it doesnt change the fact that I am in control at all times. He is mine, even if we arent together constantly. I dont find it necessary to have constant confirmation of that, it is just something I know.

DV

I think this explains the situation nicely. While the dominant can require the sub/slave to do all sorts of crazy things, most of the time, they want good things for their subs/slaves. Angel being in school does not make him any less submissive, it just means that he is working on bettering himself, and he is doing it for the good of himself and the relationship. there really isnt anything good that can come of someone ordering him to skip all his homework and never study.

Same thing with a child. Kids have a lot of needs, and the mother taking care of a kid does not make her less submissive. And, the dominant would be stupid and a bad Dom by ordering the mother to do things that would have a detrimental effect on the kid.

I know a local couple that the Dom stays home and takes care of the children while she goes out and works, and is the submissive in the relationship.

(in reply to DiurnalVampire)

Post #: 7

RE: nuances of power exchange - 3/10/2007 10:25:25 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

my question isn't about that specific situation, but about issues like this in general. along that same vein, would it be enough for you to know that the kids come first, or do you need to find a way to explain your submission/dominance and how it works within that framework (like by saying that the master comes first, but the master's first priority is the children/the slave's well being - and by extension the kids' - so therefore the kids still are primary concern)?

I am going to say something controversial... I do not think kids should come first. I think the relationship should come first. I do not think this is a BDSM thing. I think many people put their kids above everyone and everything, and I used to do this myself. In hindsight I think that this is a bad idea. I think my um is magnificent, do not get me wrong, but in the last couple of years I have begun to slowly let him know that mom is a person with needs of her own and will continue on just fine when he makes his own life.

I see people giving up everything for their UMs, and I wonder when martyr and parent became synonyms... my priority it my mate. By mate I mean someone I live with all the time. I would never move in with someone that did not consider and was not kind to my UM. At the same time my priority is my mate

Everyone with common sense is going to want to see the needs of UMs met whether they are in a power dynamic or not. It is a lot more productive to meet the needs of children than it is to let them become a problem due to neglect. My feeling that people who come up with justifications for taking care of UMs it seems odd to me, life happens, we deal with it.. end of story. I suppose if it makes them feel better to come up with justifications, so be it, but I do not feel the need to justify our dynamic or our priorities.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 3/10/2007 10:26:32 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to hisannabelle)

Post #: 8

RE: nuances of power exchange - 3/10/2007 10:28:11 PM

MzMia

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Joined: 7/30/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra

My child comes before anyone or anything, myself included. My submissive knows this and accepts it because I wouldn't have entered into the relationship any other way. IMO a woman who puts her children second to anyone shouldn't win the mother of the year award.

~Lashra

I totally agree Lashra, I would even go so far as to say even as adults.
Parenting is for life.

I needed my mommy more as an adult, and I am not ashamed to admit it.
She always came through for me, I wonder where I would be if she had
not always been in my corner? Even into my 30s.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 3/10/2007 10:32:50 PM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to Lashra)

Post #: 9

RE: nuances of power exchange - 3/10/2007 10:31:08 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra

My child comes before anyone or anything, myself included. My submissive knows this and accepts it because I wouldn't have entered into the relationship any other way. IMO a woman who puts her children second to anyone shouldn't win the mother of the year award.

~Lashra

My children come before anybody I am in a relationship.

strumpet's pimple popper comes before me.

It really is not rocket science.

I did want to point out my thinking on this matter. That child did not ASK to be born. Did not enter into any agreements with anybody, including strumpet. On the other hand, people have a biological imperative to extend their genetic lines into the future. Then there are the whole love, relationship, etc., aspects.

I am more than willing to do whatever I need to do to provide for the UMs of the one I am with. I hope that anybody I am with will do the same for my UMs.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to Lashra)

Post #: 10

RE: nuances of power exchange - 3/10/2007 10:33:05 PM

sublizzie

Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline

~ Fast Reply ~

Being a parent lasts as long as you are alive, but active parenting does not. Maybe it's because mine are grown and gone that I see things differently, but I am no longer the one who is responsible for them. I am not liable if they commit a crime. I am not responsible for any debt they may incur. Their behavior is now their own.

Do I love them? Absolutely and without question. Would I do what I could for them? Again, absolutely. But are they the center of my universe? No. If I had a Dominant they would not have to bump anyone out of that "center" spot. If they decided they wanted to hurt mine....they wouldn't be in that spot to begin with.

Just my thoughts....

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 11

RE: nuances of power exchange - 3/10/2007 10:37:12 PM

MzMia

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Joined: 7/30/2004
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well lizzie we can agree to disagree, many people need their parents
in a big way as adults. Especially in the times we live in, of course
your children should go forth, but I think you need to stay close forever.
I always wonder about people that state that can't wait until their children turn 18,
I am like, so what? I will watch over "mine" until I die.
The problem with most young adults is that their parents are not active ENOUGH.
I remember when I wanted to quit college at in my early 20s, my mother broke a plate and said, the
hell you will. Needless to say I finished college.

.

I think you can live, love, enjoy and have full life....and still be very active in your
children's life...parenting to me is until you or your child dies.
As Oprah always says, it is the hardest job in the world, and too many fail at it.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 3/10/2007 10:57:52 PM >

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to sublizzie)

Post #: 12

RE: nuances of power exchange - 3/10/2007 11:15:20 PM

sublizzie

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Joined: 5/26/2004
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The thread kind of got hijacked by the UM issue, sorry about that. I'm not sure that I can give a reasonable answer since I am not now, nor have I been, in a D/s or M/s relationship. I know it would be difficult to explain to people outside of the relationship about the things that they may see, but I don't think that's what you are really asking. I would hope that I know myself well enough and the Dominant knows himself (my personal preference) well enough that we aren't hiding the true reason for the heirarchy within the relationship from ourselves. But people generally do no matter what the situation. I've been thinking about that a lot in my not-too-hurried search for a Dominant by asking myself why I think I want one. The answers have been interesting.

(in reply to hisannabelle)

Post #: 13

RE: nuances of power exchange - 3/10/2007 11:16:53 PM

hisannabelle

Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
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ack, it seems like we've gotten off on a parenting tangent now...i was just using that as an example, guys ;)

thanks for the posts, though. i think dv's came closest to describing what i'm trying to get at, as well as stacycat's...julia, thanks for your perspective - i know that this isn't the first time you've mentioned this pov on ums, and i find your pov especially refreshing and interesting.

(in reply to MzMia)

Post #: 14

RE: nuances of power exchange - 3/10/2007 11:18:03 PM

hisannabelle

Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
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thanks for this post :) i hadn't really thought of it that way (the relationship between the way other people see us and the way we see ourselves, and how that relates to "justifying" or "explaining" the nuances of power exchange).

(in reply to sublizzie)

Post #: 15

RE: nuances of power exchange - 3/11/2007 6:04:34 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

thanks for this post :) i hadn't really thought of it that way (the relationship between the way other people see us and the way we see ourselves, and how that relates to "justifying" or "explaining" the nuances of power exchange).

We do not live together all the time yet. I do know that there are always competing interests for time and attention. I will be working and going to school and there is my UM too. I have an aging mother that I want to spend time with when possible. I have a life, many of these things could compete for my time and attention if it were not for the fact that my Daddy desires me to be well rounded in our relationship. He has interests also. He finds women that are busy in life to be appealing. I guess it is what a dominant wants in his submissive that determines how he views her having conflicting priorities.

I am not going to be dismissive as I was in my first post. I think that there is some truth to their justifications, they desire their slave/submissives to only think of serving, yet certain things can get in the way of this ideal. My Daddy desires what he desires, which is me to go on with school for one, am I serving him by doing this? Perhaps I am. In fact I think that there are many ways to serve a dominant besides directly serving him. Making a high paying career that will enable the dom to provide more for the household is service, being informed for conversation is a service of sorts, being active in social vanilla ways that lead to the dominant having a well varied social life is a service... yet one from the outside may not think it is.

As far as the original post, I read it as the UMs in question belonged to the couple, not hers alone. In other words, taking care of the children in a relationship IS the responsibility of the couple, and it is serving the dominant to make sure his offspring are well adjusted and cared for.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to hisannabelle)

Post #: 16

RE: nuances of power exchange - 3/11/2007 9:05:58 AM

toservez

Posts: 1733
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From: All over now in Minnesota
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To the original spirit of the OP, it has been my experience when in a long term 24/7 relationship that what is being discussed is more of a theoretical exercise then actual living. I have not had to deal with UMs but certainly many things within the relationship that caused issues with the pure 24/7 power exchange from small ones to big ones like moving to different states and my career.

Part of a healthy relationship is that dreaded word communication and when dealing with these issues where the power dynamic may not have total authority in the relationship, in my experience did not mean that the power exchange was temporary lifted or damaged when certain things came up. The framework was always there, we may have debated and even argued on some things but in the end a decision was made and many times done totally within the power exchange dynamic. I think communication, compatibility and advance agreement on how to handle the big questions of this nature can make things go a lot smoother.

_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 17

RE: nuances of power exchange - 3/11/2007 9:24:19 AM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
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the simple answer is that when one finds themselves defending anything: be it a TV show, a religion, a political view or a lifestyle choice, they are operating from the tired paradigm of i am right therefore you must be wrong.

though in our society this is the most common paradigm, it is the least effective and the least likely to achieve the core goal of any discussion; a meeting of the minds of both parties.

a more effective place to operate from, would be the place of listening passionately to the person you are in communication with, finding similarities and building the conversation from there.

it is very self limiting to defend oneself, it boxes you in, it shackles you to only the old and known ideas, it cages you in your own mind.

_____________________________

Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."

(in reply to toservez)

Post #: 18

RE: nuances of power exchange - 3/11/2007 9:26:17 AM

subsa

Posts: 196
Joined: 8/3/2006
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for us there are very few specific rules. we have a very well thought out ideal that we would like to live. but its just that...the ideal. real life often gets in the way (on both sides) and keeps us from achieving the ideal. but we strive for it anyway. when we achieve it (or come close) its heaven. sometimes it can be sustained for an hour; sometimes for a week. however long it lasts is a treasure and helps get us through those times that we're far from the ideal.
as far as the um's go...i have two adult ums. how much of my attention they need has flucuated over their life spans. when they need me i'm there for them. having said that, i think its important for parents to realize that you owe it to them as well as yourself to develop yourself as a person. you are not only a parent. you might be a spouse, an employee, a child..whatever. being those things to the best of your ability makes you a better person and allows your um to see you as a whole person. there was a point in my life that my mother was dying; my ums were just entering their teens. i cared for her (along with my sibs) in her last months. at that point she came first, not my ums. and they knew and understood why that was the case. so i'd have to disagree with those who say the um must always come first. but then i really don't buy into many absolutes; there seems to often be an exception.

(in reply to toservez)

Post #: 19

RE: nuances of power exchange - 3/11/2007 9:33:02 AM

BRNaughtyAngel

Posts: 1821
Status: offline

I would venture a guess that most people don't HAVE to place qualifiers such as "who comes first" in a relationship as long as there is reasonable and realistic understanding between the people in the relationship, and that any important issues are discussed ahead of time.

I mean really, how hard is it to choose between rushing to the hospital because your Dad had a heart attack and giving your dominant his nightly blowjob? Will the relationship crumble and fail because you chose to check on your UM who is bleeding profusely, instead of fixing your lord and masters dinner plate?

Life gets in the way of life. No matter what your relationship dynamic, to think that there will never be a time when something happens that will disrupt the flow in any relationship is unrealistic.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 20

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