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Global Warming Scare Hurting The Poor - 3/7/2007 5:12:15 AM   
Sanity


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As biofuels boom, will more go hungry?




By Ruth GidleyTue Mar 6, 9:58 PM ET

Using plants to feed our fuel needs may be a great idea, and the biofuel goldrush could be a moneyspinner for several poor countries, but some experts warn people may go hungry as food prices rise.

Fans of biofuels give the impression we could soon be running cars on maize, producing electricity with sugar, and getting power from palm oil.

Even though the biofuel boom is only just beginning, it has already pushed up the cost of staples in places like Mexico where rocketing tortilla prices have sparked angry protests.
Some experts foresee a permanent change in food economics if farmers scent higher profit in fuel crops than in growing plants to feed people.

"We're into a new structure of markets," said British food aid expert Edward Clay. "It could have profound implications on poor people."

World leaders promised in 2000 to halve by 2015 the proportion of people, estimated at 1.2 billion or a fifth of humanity in 1990, who live on less than a dollar a day and who suffer from hunger.

According to the 2006 review of progress toward the goal, an estimated 824 million people in the developing world were affected by chronic hunger in 2003, mostly in sub-saharan Africa and southern Asia.

Oil prices have roughly tripled since the start of 2002 to above $60 a barrel and as oil resources held by Western firms dwindle, biofuels have seemed viable and the message about climate change has gone mainstream.

Governments and oil companies are seeking alternative fuel sources and President Bush has made it clear he supports a major shift toward biofuels.

Farmers in the United States are raising production of maize, now a lucrative material for biofuel production. Soaring U.S. demand for ethanol -- produced from crops like maize and sugar cane -- has sent maize prices to their highest level in a decade.

Mexicans are feeling the impact. Tens of thousands took to the streets in January when the price of tortillas tripled to 15 pesos ($1.36) a kg. There are about 35 of the flat maize patties that are Mexico's staple food in a kg.

Since half of Mexico lives on $5 a day or less, that's no small jump, and President Felipe Calderon -- a conservative who is a firm believer in free markets -- intervened to cap prices.

NEW ECONOMIC ERA?
Food costs as a proportion of incomes have been on a downward slide since World War Two, at least in the West. Clay says one of the big questions now is whether biofuels could reverse that process and take us into a new economic era which might be yet harder on the poor.

Although he says the current spike in prices will be temporary, he is not convinced food prices will fall back to pre-biofuel boom levels.

"By next year, (food) prices will begin to fall away," he predicts. "But that doesn't mean they'll ever fall to what they were before."

The United States and Brazil, the world's top biofuels producers, are not the only countries jumping on the biofuels bandwagon. China has joined them and now ranks in the global top four for biofuels output.

The incentive to switch land use from food crops to fuel crops mounts with rising biofuel demand, potentially underpinning prices.

Also maintaining upward pressure on food prices are the twin needs of economic boomers China and India to be self-sufficient in fuel, but also in food. China's expanding middle classes want to eat more meat, which requires grain production for feed, in turn keeping food prices high.

While food prices are likely to be dampened by farmers increasing food crop production in the short term, the scope for switching is limited.

Numerous scientists and economists say China and India do not have enough water to increase grain production, whether for animals or fuel.

LESS FOOD AID?
The biofuel boom may also change policies on food aid.

Now U.S. farmers can make good money selling grain to make ethanol, there could be a shift in its policy of giving 99 percent of food aid contributions in goods, rather than cash.
It might now actually be more convenient for the United States to buy its food aid allotment elsewhere, food aid expert Clay says.

The United States is the world's largest food aid donor but has come under heavy criticism, especially from Europeans, who say aid in kind distorts local markets, often takes a long time to arrive and is more expensive to ship than buy locally.

Bush has been trying to persuade Congress to change the law to allow up to 25 percent of the country's food aid in cash, but the bill has been rejected under pressure from farmers who did not want to lose what was more or less a subsidy for their grains.
Bush's bill is up before Congress again this year. For the last few years, the world's annual food aid donations have been around 10 million tonnes, in line with an international agreement in place since the 1960s for wealthy countries to give at least 5 million tonnes of food annually.

Donations fluctuate depending on prices, and relief organizations are already bracing themselves for a likely cut in volumes donated.

Clay says when food prices last rose in 1995, parts of the world where food aid was used in development projects -- like school feeding programs -- were the most vulnerable to cutbacks in the following year.

The same places -- Bangladesh, Central America, Eritrea, Ethiopia and North Korea, for example -- will probably be first to feel the pinch now.

(Additional reporting by Nigel Hunt in London and Alister Doyle in Oslo)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070307/sc_nm/renewable_energy_hunger_dc_2

< Message edited by Sanity -- 3/7/2007 5:28:49 AM >
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RE: Global Warming Scare Hurting The Poor - 3/7/2007 6:08:55 AM   
NakedOnMyChain


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It becomes a matter of weighing the pros and cons.  (Damn, I could write fortune cookies, that was so ambiguous.)  Is it better to let a few go hungry in the short term, or to slowly destroy the world in an increasingly exponential way.  There will come a time, if it hasn't already, where humans won't be able to function in nature.  We won't be able to do without these "comforts" we so rely on.  What will we do when our nonrenewable resources run out? 

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RE: Global Warming Scare Hurting The Poor - 3/7/2007 6:17:16 AM   
Sanity


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Yeah, let the little children starve... Al Gore needs his carbon credits so he can claim he's "carbon neutral" while heating and cooling his mansions, jet airplanes, limousines, and other assorted luxuries. I wonder how many carbon credits an ethanol plant is worth. How many kilowatts do you get per starving baby, Al?

quote:

ORIGINAL: NakedOnMyChain

It becomes a matter of weighing the pros and cons.  (Damn, I could write fortune cookies, that was so ambiguous.)  Is it better to let a few go hungry in the short term, or to slowly destroy the world in an increasingly exponential way.  There will come a time, if it hasn't already, where humans won't be able to function in nature.  We won't be able to do without these "comforts" we so rely on.  What will we do when our nonrenewable resources run out? 


< Message edited by Sanity -- 3/7/2007 6:28:12 AM >

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RE: Global Warming Scare Hurting The Poor - 3/7/2007 6:55:09 AM   
justheather


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And they call Liberals angry.
I heard Al Gore doesnt finish all the juice in his Capri Sun before throwing it in the garbage either.
For shame. For shame.

We all know what good the conservatives have done for the mexican poor, so it's really only natural they should be taking up their cause now in the fight against the environment.


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RE: Global Warming Scare Hurting The Poor - 3/7/2007 7:24:27 AM   
Sanity


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I'm not angry, you're projecting.

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RE: Global Warming Scare Hurting The Poor - 3/7/2007 7:38:46 AM   
justheather


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

I'm not angry, you're projecting.


Im not projecting, you're just defensive.


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RE: Global Warming Scare Hurting The Poor - 3/7/2007 7:50:50 AM   
meatcleaver


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Replacing petroleum with ethanol is a stupid idea and offered by people who want a quick fix to the current obvious problem without any change in lifestyle. Agriculture is a heavy carbon emissions industry so by the time ethanol gets to the market, the whole point of using it would be rendered pointless. Maybe a 10% save on emissions so I've read. Plus the amount of agricultural land taken up in cash crops doesn't make sense. The land would be better used for growing food locally. In fact the shipping of food around the world doesn't make sense, especially for staples that can be grown locally.

The USA couldn't satisfy its current needs for fuel using ethanol anyway, even if it used the whole of Brazil to grow cane rather than use all the USA to grow corn. The USA needs to cut back on fuel use, use fuel efficient cars, not drive so much and encourage public transport. A model that is being developed in Portland, Oregan.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/4794361.stm

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/7/2007 7:55:00 AM >


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RE: Global Warming Scare Hurting The Poor - 3/7/2007 8:01:55 AM   
justfortheforums


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my brother is an apple/fruit farmer...the government has paid him to not pick his fruit and take it to market but rather shake it and leave it to rot in the fields.  i'm not sure why or how this all works but it's a sad sad thing when children are suffering for months and then finally dying from starvation and the food is being left to spoil in the fields because of the market.   i don't get it.

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RE: Global Warming Scare Hurting The Poor - 3/7/2007 8:33:24 AM   
farglebargle


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And he didn't even make some 'shine from the apples? What a shame.



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RE: Global Warming Scare Hurting The Poor - 3/7/2007 9:01:35 AM   
cyberdude611


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So you want to allow millions of poor people to die because you are trying to save the planet from a theory that cant even be scientifically proven true.

This global warming stuff is becoming insane.

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RE: Global Warming Scare Hurting The Poor - 3/7/2007 9:40:16 AM   
shadevarr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

So you want to allow millions of poor people to die because you are trying to save the planet from a theory that cant even be scientifically proven true.

This global warming stuff is becoming insane.
 It has been proven, that is why governments are actually doing something about it finally even though it may be too little to late. God can't be proven or disproven, there are 50 years of records showing a nice exponential temperature increase.

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RE: Global Warming Scare Hurting The Poor - 3/7/2007 9:55:17 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: shadevarr

It has been proven, that is why governments are actually doing something about it finally even though it may be too little to late. God can't be proven or disproven, there are 50 years of records showing a nice exponential temperature increase.


hmmm, I read somewhere that there has been no temperature increase in the southern hemisphere.

Anyone else read that?

FirmKY


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RE: Global Warming Scare Hurting The Poor - 3/7/2007 10:02:08 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: shadevarr

It has been proven, that is why governments are actually doing something about it finally even though it may be too little to late. God can't be proven or disproven, there are 50 years of records showing a nice exponential temperature increase.


hmmm, I read somewhere that there has been no temperature increase in the southern hemisphere.

Anyone else read that?

FirmKY



I guess that is why the Antartic ice cap is melting at an alarming rate and why new species of water creatures are being discovered because of the reduction in the cap.

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RE: Global Warming Scare Hurting The Poor - 3/7/2007 10:19:04 AM   
cyberdude611


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quote:

ORIGINAL: shadevarr

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

So you want to allow millions of poor people to die because you are trying to save the planet from a theory that cant even be scientifically proven true.

This global warming stuff is becoming insane.
 It has been proven, that is why governments are actually doing something about it finally even though it may be too little to late. God can't be proven or disproven, there are 50 years of records showing a nice exponential temperature increase.


In science, a hypothesis cannot be proven. It is either supported or rejected. There is a lot of evidence to support the theory. However, there is also some evidence that:
1. Rejects the hypothesis
2. Provides alternative explainations

There is a rise of surface temperature. However our satillites in orbit have shown NO temperature increase in the past 25 years in atmospheric temperature. So we have a surface temperature rising; however, we have no rise in atmospheric temperature. This causes problems for the global warming theory. Also, the polar ice caps on Mars is melting. This is evidence that the increase in solar output currently coming from the sun does cause enough increase in temperature to melt the polar regions of the planet. The sun is currently going through a hot cycle right now. NASA says this cycle will peak around the year 2012.

If the sun is melting ice at the poles on Mars, is it wrong to think that maybe the sun is also melting some of the ice on earth?

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RE: Global Warming Scare Hurting The Poor - 3/7/2007 11:06:47 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

hmmm, I read somewhere that there has been no temperature increase in the southern hemisphere.

Anyone else read that?


I guess that is why the Antartic ice cap is melting at an alarming rate and why new species of water creatures are being discovered because of the reduction in the cap.


That didn't answer my question.

FirmKY


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RE: Global Warming Scare Hurting The Poor - 3/7/2007 11:09:02 AM   
Lothlauren


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Actually, the base assumption that since the sun is melting the polar ice caps on mars doesnt take into account the differences between Mars and Earth. The Atomsphere on Mars is mostly carbon dioxide, secondly those caps are formed by the frozen atomsphere on mars. Our Arctic ice caps are formed by precipitation over the period of years. Not a seasonal shift and freezing of the atmosphere.

Earth's atomsphere doesnt freeze every year, just seems like it. Our atomsphere is primarily nitrogen, Earth's Exosphere ends at approximately 10,000 km from planet surface, Mars's Exosphere... oh wait they dont have one, its being ripped away by solarwinds. Atomspheric density is way different (Mars has 1/100th of the density that Earth has).

At no point does those satelittes reflect where they took the temperatures. only that atmospheric temperatures dont indicate that theres warming. Umm theres such huge temperature variations throughout the various layers of the atmosphere.

Global warming is about the greenhouse gasses trapping in our stratosphere and heating up our troposphere. The troposphere ends at 11 km from the surface, 11 km in a 10,000 km range is "surface" as far as the scientists are concerned.

As for alternative explanations and evidence that rejects the hypothesis, there will always be examples of extreme situations and examples that would seem to cite a different story, however I prefer to take a broader view and actually let my mind (The tool that makes us different that animals... in most cases) make an informed choice. We all know that there has been an active attempt by many governments (Not naming names) to downplay the severity of whats happening. When weighing the sum of evidence, one must accept that Global warming is happening, it started when we started the industrial revolution.

I could go on about this but I think the evidence speaks for itself.

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RE: Global Warming Scare Hurting The Poor - 3/7/2007 11:10:43 AM   
Lothlauren


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BTW FirmHandKY the reason there doesnt seem to be a large temperature change is that most of the Earth's surface water is in the south, and the Oceans absorb the temperature dispersing it to the polar regions via currents.

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RE: Global Warming Scare Hurting The Poor - 3/7/2007 11:12:21 AM   
farglebargle


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Unless you read it in something peer-reviewed, is it worthy of inclusion in the debate?

Shouldn't EVERY piece of evidence be vetted prior to use by peer-review and publication?

That's my major issue with the "discussion" of Global Warming. I'm not seeing a heck of a lot of Science on either side of it.

On both sides, it's as polarized and belief-based as abortion and assisted suicide. I can't think of a better reason to ban politicians from discussing it, myself.



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RE: Global Warming Scare Hurting The Poor - 3/7/2007 3:36:34 PM   
popeye1250


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Sen James Inuoe (sp?) said that global warming is the biggest scam ever pulled on the American People in our history.

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RE: Global Warming Scare Hurting The Poor - 3/7/2007 3:40:50 PM   
Lordandmaster


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No, I tend to avoid the National Inquirer.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

hmmm, I read somewhere that there has been no temperature increase in the southern hemisphere.

Anyone else read that?

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