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Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing agenda! - 3/3/2007 6:57:46 PM   
farglebargle


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Status: offline 		http://peoplesgeography.com/2007/01/19/irans-president-did-not-say-israel-must-be-wiped-off-the-map/

The full quote translated directly to English:

“The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time”.

Word by word translation:

Imam (Khomeini) ghoft (said) een (this) rezhim-e (regime) ishghalgar-e (occupying) qods (Jerusalem) bayad (must) az safheh-ye ruzgar (from page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from).

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RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing ag... - 3/3/2007 7:10:07 PM   
NorthernGent


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If there is any doubt, in the same speech he compared his prefered choice for Israel with the overthrow of the Shah from his own country i.e. regime change as opposed to wiping his own country off the map.

It's an English idiom, anyway. No Farsi equivalent exists.


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RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing ag... - 3/3/2007 7:49:39 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		Now according to Fargs article he also compared it to the removal of Saddam's regiem in Iraq, not just to the fall of the Shah from internal forces.  which would include a coalition of Armies invading and doing it.  He does clearly want Isreal destroyed, quibbling about the translation seems kind of pointless.  If you agree that Isreal should be removed from the pages of time or whatever, say so.  If you don't why defend the guy?

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RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing ag... - 3/3/2007 7:54:17 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		You've missed a pertinent point with regard to Iraq and whether or not Iraq has been wiped off the face of the map. I ain't going to spell it out for you, think about it.

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RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing ag... - 3/3/2007 8:00:37 PM   
GentlehandSTL


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Status: offline 		A distinction without a difference…

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RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing ag... - 3/3/2007 8:11:34 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Status: offline 		luckydog,

What's amazing to me is the level of the attempt to justify the comments and the belief behind them that Israel should be destroyed.

They are trying to make all kinds of "nuanced" pronouncements, but the meaning behind however you translate the words are a strong vote and wish for the destruction of the state of Israel.

They want to make some kind of artificial distinction between the population and the "regime", but have no moral compunctions about the death of every Jew in the Middle East.

They cloth themselves in obfuscation disguised as semantics, and try to hide the impact of the plain and apparent meaning of the words and sentiment behind the words.

Cunning linguists indeed.

FirmKY

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RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing ag... - 3/3/2007 8:15:27 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Sounds like you're speaking for "they". Quite the totalitarian aren't you. If I want the opinion of "they" should I come to you seeing as though you're the self-appointed head of the organisation?

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RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing ag... - 3/3/2007 8:22:53 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Status: offline 		Here is  "Ahmadi Nejad"  official, English website.

I couldn't find his English translation of the speech, which occurred (I think) on Oct 25th, 2005.

Lets see if anyone else can find the official translation (not that it will still be the same "official" translation posted when he originally made the speech ... )

According to the article I linked to in the last thread that this issue was brought up, at the time of the speech, the official Iranian state translators had it as "wipe Israel off the face of the map". 

Sure, NG, not a problem that they don't have that exact same, word for word idiom in Farsi.  That's not the point, and you don't seem to understand that good translation isn't about a word for word translation, but a translation from one cultural concept to a similar cultural concept in another language.

Every time you say "they don't have that saying in their language" it just tells me you are missing the whole point.

FirmKY


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RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing ag... - 3/3/2007 8:28:46 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Sounds like you're speaking for "they". Quite the totalitarian aren't you. If I want the opinion of "they" should I come to you seeing as though you're the self-appointed head of the organisation?


"They" in this case, means the author of the article linked to by FB, the owners of that website, FB himself, the large number of ideologues committed to anti-western ideas .... and perhaps you.

Haven't made my mind up about you yet.  You are a pretty intelligent and reasonable guy, so I'm still optimistic that we will come to a meeting of the minds.  Not necessarily an agreement, mind you, but at least an understanding of positions.

FirmKY


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RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing ag... - 3/3/2007 8:51:10 PM   
farglebargle


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quote:


They want to make some kind of artificial distinction between the population and the "regime", but have no moral compunctions about the death of every Jew in the Middle East.


The People are not The Government.

And I'm not sure my belief that the Government of Israel has to be replaced with a successor government without the established bad faith before and progress is ever made follows through to, as you say, "no moral compunctions about the death of every Jew in the Middle East".

Please explain.



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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing ag... - 3/3/2007 9:08:24 PM   
WyrdRich


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Status: offline 		      Firm, if people want to take their places with those who tried to appease and apologize for the monsters and tyrants of the last century, I say, let them.  They are the ones who will have to live with themselves.

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RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing ag... - 3/3/2007 9:17:53 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

     Firm, if people want to take their places with those who tried to appease and apologize for the monsters and tyrants of the last century, I say, let them.  They are the ones who will have to live with themselves.


Very true Rich.  Very true.

The sad part is all the other innocents that will die and suffer, while the appeasement runs it's natural, inevitable course.

FirmKY


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RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing ag... - 3/3/2007 9:28:12 PM   
WyrdRich


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Status: offline 		      "God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change."

     

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RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing ag... - 3/4/2007 2:24:13 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

    Firm, if people want to take their places with those who tried to appease and apologize for the monsters and tyrants of the last century, I say, let them.  They are the ones who will have to live with themselves.


Ben Gurion and his band of terrorists planned to cleanse Palestine of Palestinians through mass murder and ethnic cleansing BEFORE the holocaust. His own words are well recorded and they have never been denied, in fact over the years he added to them. We know that Israel was set up through terrorism so the USA isn't beyond supporting a terrorist state when its interests suits them.

From what I understand, Imans in Iran have always been careful to make a distinction between the people of Israel and the regime. However, Ahmadinejad's power is on the wane because he let's his mouth run away with him but I doubt the US care about that, their propaganda is setting up a war. Far better for the USA to claim they are fighting for the survival of Israel than for Iranian oil.

It's a fucking laugh when western countries claim to save the world from rogue regimes. How long can these countries go on with such absurd claims because they happened to be on the right side of WWII?

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/4/2007 2:25:10 AM >

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RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing ag... - 3/4/2007 2:30:08 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GentlehandSTL

A distinction without a difference…



Consider the implications of regime change and wiping a country off the face of the map as follows:

When he is painted as a dangerous lunatic, the oft cited "evidence" is that he aims to wipe Israel off the face of the map. This acts as a basis to support the argument that he wishes to develop nukes to launch against a people. In turn, it becomes a propaganda tool to be used by the more destructive elements involved in the design of US foreign policy.

Regime change however does not necessarily involve nuking a country. The US government has had its fingers in a boat load of regime changes without actually nuking the people of those countries. The concept of regime change is as old as the hills and practiced across all four corners of the globe. If it is accepted he said regime change, then he becomes a mere mortal and there is no justification for painting him as a lunatic (bang goes a propaganda tool).

Interestingly enough, the fundamentalists in Iran are also sticking to their guns and insisting he said "wipe off the face of the map" because they want to see a conflict with Israel and the US. They want to provoke hostility. I have no doubt that a minority of people in the Middle East would love to see Israel blown into oblivion, but there is a huge difference between the government of a country advocating this and fundamentalist groups without the backing to actually achieve it.

On a related note, prominent British Jews are busy showing their disgust with the Israeli government and their inhumane approach to a problem i.e. bombing a place into oblivion and leaving behind a shithole not fit for rats to live in. They also want to see regime change, so the Iranian President is certainly not alone in his thinking.

There's a deeper issue in that some people see the world as a clash of cultures, a clash of Christianty/Judaism v Islam. The danger is that this is a very black and white approach to world issues. It is an approach which leaves very little room for discussion and understanding. It is discussed in terms of good and evil and boils down to absolutes where you're "either with us or against us". I would say the world is a clash between moderates of all races/religion/culture and fundamentalists. Whether they're Muslims, Christians, Jews etc is irrelevant - many fundamentalists are dangerous (including the US version) and they're all willing and able to start the next world war if moderates were to take their collective eye off the ball. 


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RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing ag... - 3/4/2007 7:05:00 AM   
sleazy


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Status: offline 		Well as Israel is nominally a democratic country, I think it is fair to assume that the regime is one chosen by a proportion of the citizens. If the regime is removed it must be either replaced by some form of totalitarianship that is more accomodating of other mid-east states or it is reasonable to expect that the Israeli people would vote for a similar (or perhaps in a fit of "up-yours" an even more hard line) regime.

So unless the Imam is going to install his own puppet regime the only real course of action open to him is to destroy both the regime and those that created it and may well create another similar or even worse towards him.

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RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing ag... - 3/4/2007 11:24:38 AM   
farglebargle


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Status: offline 		"Well as Israel is nominally a democratic country, I think it is fair to assume that the regime is one chosen by a proportion of the citizens."

Due to the history of bad faith, the percentage of arab-israelis voting is abysmally low. They have no faith in the government or that their vote is worth anything. Self-Fulfilling prophecy? Perhaps. But the proportion of the citizens choosing the govenment isn't representative of the population.

That's why the current government of the State of Israel needs to go before any progress is made.

I still don't know how that translates into desiring the extermination of the Jews in the Middle East, as it's been charged.

The idea is ludicrous.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 3/4/2007 11:27:27 AM >

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It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing ag... - 3/4/2007 11:33:47 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

Well as Israel is nominally a democratic country, I think it is fair to assume that the regime is one chosen by a proportion of the citizens. If the regime is removed it must be either replaced by some form of totalitarianship that is more accomodating of other mid-east states or it is reasonable to expect that the Israeli people would vote for a similar (or perhaps in a fit of "up-yours" an even more hard line) regime.

So unless the Imam is going to install his own puppet regime the only real course of action open to him is to destroy both the regime and those that created it and may well create another similar or even worse towards him.


Like most states, Israel is a gerrymandered state. The whole point of driving out the Palestinians and refusing their return is to keep the state gerrymandered. One of the main Islamic objectives is the right of return for the Palestinian refugees, something that Israel will never agree to. Arab countries expelled 80,000 Jews as a way of retaliation but never allowed the Palestinians to take up residence in their countries. However, a large proportion of the expelled Palestinians were Christian and wouldn't want to go to Islamic states anyway. The Palestinians have been shit on by both parties but the fact remains, many were ethnically cleansed which is an international crime and under international law have a right to return (unless you are Palestinian that is). Since the west (including the USA) wrote these laws after WII, it is somewhat hypocritical of the west not to enforce such laws. This gross hypocrisy is one of the reasons many people in the developing world see western democratic values as self serving. Especially when the west picks and chooses which democratically elected governments or bodies it wishes to recognize. So arguing about democracy and democratic values, nominally or otherwise, will only raise a cynical laugh in much of the world.

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RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing ag... - 3/4/2007 1:25:57 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

I still don't know how that translates into desiring the extermination of the Jews in the Middle East, as it's been charged.

The idea is ludicrous.


Well, sleazy explained it in the very post before you posted this, and I explained the idea in the last thread where we discussed this issue.

You have to make an effort to read and understand your debating opponents, otherwise people will stop trying to engage you rationally, and just start seeing how much emotional invective we can invoke out of you instead.

FirmKY


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RE: Damn those cunning lingusits and their left wing ag... - 3/4/2007 4:32:35 PM   
sleazy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
But the proportion of the citizens choosing the govenment isn't representative of the population.


I never claimed any such thing, I am well aware that there is barely a true democratic majority anywhere in the world. I said that a number of citizens voted for the regime, nothing more, nothing less. Is this now going to get onto audit trails again?

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Since the west (including the USA) wrote these laws after WII, it is somewhat hypocritical of the west not to enforce such laws. This gross hypocrisy is one of the reasons many people in the developing world see western democratic values as self serving. Especially when the west picks and chooses which democratically elected governments or bodies it wishes to recognize. So arguing about democracy and democratic values, nominally or otherwise, will only raise a cynical laugh in much of the world.


And therin could well be the point, kicking Israel in the teeth is a way of sticking a couple of fingers up at the US & the rest of the west. After all is any western country really going to make war with any real gusto over Israel, especially if it does go nuclear? The US is incapable of warfare that does not revolve around air strikes and tank brigades, The UK is overstretched already, and the rest of europe are too damn busy selling to everyone with cash to hand.

As for democratic values being self serving, show me a government anywhere in the world that is not so? Democracy, Totalitariansim, Feudalism, or even outright anarchy, all merely serve the whims of those with power. As churchill once said, "democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others"

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