RE: Negotiating During a Scene?

RE: Negotiating During a Scene? (Full Version)

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needdiscipline23 -> RE: Negotiating During a Scene? (2/13/2007 7:23:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TNstepsout This is an interesting topic for me because one of my very first scenes went very, VERY badly because I was both too inexperienced and too "high" to properly protect myself during the scene. It's been a year now and I still haven't completely overcome the effects of so much going wrong so quickly. I was really terrified to ever trust anyone enough again, however it was only through trying again that I could learn enough about my limits, boundaries etc... to trust again. Anyway, enough of that. YES, if you are new negotiate your scenes completely. Even if you leave wishing or wanting more, it's FAR better than wishing you had had far less. If you have absolutely no idea because it's all so new, what you will and won't like and what you can tolerate, better to try one thing or just a few new things at a time. Once you know yourself and your limits a little better, and once you have gotten to know the top and how they play and how you react to him/her, then you can begin to engage in scenes with less and less negotiation. As far as subspace and the inability to negotiate goes....you should definately make hard limits known up front and if sex is one of them, make sure that is understood. Also, don't be vague about what you consider to be sex. Be specific; do you mean only penile/vaginal penetration, or ALL penetration? What about forced masturbation or vaginal stimulation? etc.... Don't leave things nebulous and then get upset afterwards. Subspace will lower your ability to know and understand what you do and dont' want, can and can't handle. At the time, in that state, you can handle it. Afterward though, the reality of it can be tough to deal with. First off, thanks for sharing briefly about your bad first experience, and how it affected you--I don't know if this is true for other newbies, but I find myself having to remind myself continually not to just trust the domme I'm working with, at the expense of thinking everything through myself, and this is a good reminder to me that it CAN go wrong, and that can be difficult to overcome. Also--great advice about specificity--I'm still struggling to define exactly what my sexual limits are, but its a discussion the Top and I continue to have, and your warning about how everything would feel fine in subspace is well taken! Especially since I can certainly imagine enjoying something at the time that would be emotionally hard to handle later. I can't believe LA didn't come post her list!! [:(]

Celeste43 -> RE: Negotiating During a Scene? (2/13/2007 8:57:52 AM)
If he stumbles across an emotional trigger, I go nonverbal and rigid. I'm unable to talk for fear of drawing attention and anger directed towards me. I'm also pretty nonverbal in subspace but then I sound druggy and answers come several minutes after the question with no real relation to what I was asked. Anybody who crossed a line when I was obviously unable to give consent is someone I would seriously consider hunting down and braining with a frying pan. It's like having sex with someone totally drunk. Legally they are unable to give consent and that makes it rape. The fact they were unable to speak and say no, or run away doesn't mean they consented.

lapresence -> RE: Negotiating During a Scene? (2/13/2007 8:30:16 PM)
Hi all, I've never negotiated a scene, per se. But I make clear what my limits are, and there might be more for someone I don't know as well. I have had one problem, and it was not anyone's fault, but I was unable to verbalize or use a safe word. I actually found something I was unaware was a hard limit. Play continued, I experienced sub drop the next day for a couple of days. I recovered on my own and moved on. I've found I can't really use safe words, so I have to trust my partner. The partner is aware of this as well. So I view consent is on-going. Just my 2 cents. But to each their own. presence

SimplyMichael -> RE: Negotiating During a Scene? (2/13/2007 8:40:03 PM)
Celeste, Sleeping with a woman drunk out of her mind isn't rape, it might be wrong, is certainly stupid, but isn't legally considered prima facia of rape anywhere that I know of.

taintedgypsy -> RE: Negotiating During a Scene? (2/13/2007 11:40:32 PM)
Thank you SimplyMichael, I shall look for a copy warm smiles

DarkDreams123 -> RE: Negotiating During a Scene? (2/14/2007 12:32:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael Celeste, Sleeping with a woman drunk out of her mind isn't rape, it might be wrong, is certainly stupid, but isn't legally considered prima facia of rape anywhere that I know of. SimplyMichael, you are wrong about this. http://www.wpi.edu/Pubs/Policies/Judicial/sect16.html "Acquaintance Rape: Forced, manipulated or coerced sexual intercourse (or other sexual act) by a friend or an acquaintance. If the act occurs while the victim is unconscious, asleep or otherwise unable to communicate unwillingness, it is still considered acquaintance rape." A person must be able to give consent, or consent is considered to be withheld. -Dark Dreams

LeatherBentOne -> RE: Negotiating During a Scene? (2/14/2007 5:46:57 AM)
I negotiate and gain consent before scening but I include anything that might happen during that scene, but doesnt necessarily have to happen, then. This way spontaneity isnt destroyed and Im within consent. It also acts as a tool for surprise, in that once I get consent but dont use my consent during the immediate scene, I can always slip it in at a later scene. For me, spontaneity is important, but so is consent.

twicehappy -> RE: Negotiating During a Scene? (2/14/2007 5:51:10 AM)
Lapresence, hon, have you looked at your font on the boards? It is almost impossible to read.

goodpet -> RE: Negotiating During a Scene? (2/14/2007 5:56:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael .... However, I don't negotiate scenes like that, I tend to say "do you want to play, yes/no" and go from there. Not wanting to highjack the thread, but... i am with on this one for the most part. If it was a total stranger at a party i do talk with them first. not really a full negotiation but i do get to know them a bit. And it would not be in private the first time. If i already know them, there is usually no negotiations at all. Just, as you put it, "Want to play?"

SimplyMichael -> RE: Negotiating During a Scene? (2/14/2007 6:40:49 AM)
drunk is not the same as passed out. If the other two standards are asleep and unconscius, "passed out due to drinking" would be the equivelent, not simply drunk. The way the original poster put it, was more along the lines of statutory rape, meaning the only thing that mattered is someone is under 18 and if you do them it is rape, no if, ands, or buts. In the case of drinking, there is no law that states past a certain BOC that you can no longer consent, pass out and you can't but as long as you are standing and sluring your words, you can claim rape, but you can do that sober. The issue was whether or not it was prima facia evidence of rape and it isn't.

ExSteelAgain -> RE: Negotiating During a Scene? (2/14/2007 6:58:47 AM)
This all seems pretty simple to me. Many subs are going to fly and become helpless during play. It is the nature of the play. You have to stick with limits that have been discussed, negotiated or whatever you want to call it. With someone you don’t know well, it makes no sense to go beyond what you know the person is into or to exceed moderate, safe play When you scene with someone you know well, you will more than likely be stopping short of her desire for more if you have built her up to a wild, passionate and fanatical place. If you get her going with a devilish, brutal toy like a rod or something she may be beyond being able to stop and may even keep begging for more. In that case, the limits are subtle ingredients of the trust you two have. Those shouldn’t be violated either.

Mariposa -> RE: Negotiating During a Scene? (2/14/2007 7:26:24 AM)
SimplyMichael- I'll look up specific cases, but I know (at least in CT) an intoxicated individual is considered legally unable to give consent. They might have their power of speech, but that does not make them fit to form what is essentially a verbal contract in the eyes of the law. Mari

ExSteelAgain -> RE: Negotiating During a Scene? (2/14/2007 7:31:44 AM)
You guys have to be kidding. Half the yearly births in the western hemisphere can be attributed to dads and moms over the legal alcohol limit. If we start going to court over all those, we are going to need way more lawyers.

lapresence -> RE: Negotiating During a Scene? (2/14/2007 9:13:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain You guys have to be kidding. Half the yearly births in the western hemisphere can be attributed to dads and moms over the legal alcohol limit. If we start going to court over all those, we are going to need way more lawyers. She is just stating facts. Most people aren't going to bother over something generally ridiculous like that. But some feel they have been violated (and perhaps they have - I don't know), and it's held up in court. I am inclined to say, most of the time, a person needs to take responsibility for their state of intoxication and know their limits. I know mine. I am not saying that some cases aren't legitimate, I just don't know. I hope that the ones that are taken to court are. But we've also seen McDonald's sued for serving hot coffee. Most people are going to be rational and take personal responsibility. But stuff like this happens. During my class on Private Enterprise and public policy, our instructor discussed how our judicial system is currently following a legal interpretation that does not hold people accountable for their own decisions. Right, wrong? who knows. I truly hope no one is offended by my post. It isn't my intention to belittle the turmoil that (mostly) women have gone through as victims of sexual crimes. Respectfully, presence

Tamerofwild1s -> RE: Negotiating During a Scene? (2/14/2007 10:10:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Celeste43 If he stumbles across an emotional trigger, I go nonverbal and rigid. I'm unable to talk for fear of drawing attention and anger directed towards me. I'm also pretty nonverbal in subspace but then I sound druggy and answers come several minutes after the question with no real relation to what I was asked. Anybody who crossed a line when I was obviously unable to give consent is someone I would seriously consider hunting down and braining with a frying pan. It's like having sex with someone totally drunk. Legally they are unable to give consent and that makes it rape. The fact they were unable to speak and say no, or run away doesn't mean they consented. that makes driving while intoxicated unconstitutional too I suppose .. since I am drunk I cannot be held liable for getting in the car and driving it ... just as a drunk woman cannot be liable for crawling into a mans bed or back seat and spreading her legs .. right ??

sexyone4you -> RE: Negotiating During a Scene? (2/14/2007 11:40:27 AM)
Personally, I talk thoroughly about whether or not sex will be involved in the first few scenes with a new Dom. I like to refrain from sex the first scene, and after that, we renegotiate what both of us want. Since when the scene starts, I know how I get and I tend to have the mouth of a dirty whore, anyone would be confused on whether or not I wanted sex. When I am in subspace, I am just not "with it" enough to decide whether or not I should have sex with the Dom. Doms I have played with have always respected this boundary of mine.

DarkDreams123 -> RE: Negotiating During a Scene? (2/14/2007 10:47:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael drunk is not the same as passed out. If the other two standards are asleep and unconscius, "passed out due to drinking" would be the equivelent, not simply drunk. The way the original poster put it, was more along the lines of statutory rape, meaning the only thing that mattered is someone is under 18 and if you do them it is rape, no if, ands, or buts. In the case of drinking, there is no law that states past a certain BOC that you can no longer consent, pass out and you can't but as long as you are standing and sluring your words, you can claim rape, but you can do that sober. The issue was whether or not it was prima facia evidence of rape and it isn't. Read a little more closely: "... or otherwise unable to communicate unwillingness". I can readily believe that a jury could be convinced that a drunk or otherwise impaired individual was incapable of giving consent. Also, as regards evidence, a person's testimony is evidence. A 'Prima Facie' case may be entirely composed of testimony. "Prima Facie" does not refer to a kind of evidence, only as to it's appearing conclusive.

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