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My Subbie wants other Domme...... - 2/2/2007 8:14:43 AM

Mzterious

Posts: 1
Joined: 1/10/2007
Status: offline

to join in regularly. I'm a novice Domme or one in training rather. I've been with my sub for 5 months. Recently one of my girlfriends, who is also a Domme in training asked if she can sit in and learn cbt and other delicious stuff. I said yes, we planned a time and W/we three got together and had a fantastic time. Now my sub is asking me if she can join in regularly, even in a sexual way. This all makes me very sick. Literally. I thought I was doing everything right, he seemed very pleased with Me but now he wants to play with her as well, all the time and tells me how hot she is and wishes for her to rape him and such. I do feel that this is my fault and it stems from being a novice, I'm still learning. I don't mind others topping him, but it seems like he has a sexual attraction to her. Am I over reacting? Thanks in advance, Mztress Trinity.

< Message edited by Mzterious -- 2/2/2007 8:16:36 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: My Subbie wants other Domme...... - 2/2/2007 8:27:00 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

Your issue is that you are feeling replaced and less relevant. The thing to do is be open to him about these feelings and allow him to express himself honestly as to whether he feels the other woman is just a great new person to enjoy with you still being the foundation of his relationship, or something else.

Bringing new people into a dynamic can be a slippery slope, as you're experiencing. I can't promise where it will lead, but as long as you are all being open and communicating on all levels, you will get through it knowing things worked out the way they should.

You may also want to start discussing boundaries with your sub- what you are and are not ok with. Don't do it because you are insecure, but because you need to know the score before getting any further. Don't make things you've already done together off limits.

It's more than ok to say "I'm not comfortable with you doing X together right now."

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Mzterious)

Post #: 2

RE: My Subbie wants other Domme...... - 2/2/2007 8:46:06 AM

DominaSmartass

Posts: 961
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: This month? Maryland
Status: offline

I've often played with someone and had everything go great for a period of time just to have him confess that what he REALLY wants is to incorporate a 3rd person, a hypothetical 2nd dom. While I understand it's a huge fantasy for men and I've co-topped with other women before (and it can be fun) I have also been insulted because it can feel like "what? One good dom isn't enough for you?" Submissive men can be greedy little bastards and if you are his dom, even if you're still learning, he needs to respect that you have the final say.

I agree with LA that you have to communicate with him. With my current boyfriend, we both have played with other people since being "together" and that's ok with us. I personally think it helps our relationship and keeps us from ever feeling trapped in a rut and being bored because we can play with other people. Though there may be a sexual attraction to others as well, we have both agreed that our primary relationship is the priority and have set limits of where that sexual attraction to other people can go. So there's my advice.

_____________________________

“These S&M people ... they are bossy! There’s also a creepy connection between leather sex, ‘Star Trek’ and the Renaissance Faire.”

- Comedian Margaret Cho

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 3

RE: My Subbie wants other Domme...... - 2/2/2007 8:49:55 AM

MasterFireMaam

Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mzterious

to join in regularly. I'm a novice Domme or one in training rather. I've been with my sub for 5 months. Recently one of my girlfriends, who is also a Domme in training asked if she can sit in and learn cbt and other delicious stuff. I said yes, we planned a time and W/we three got together and had a fantastic time. Now my sub is asking me if she can join in regularly, even in a sexual way. This all makes me very sick. Literally. I thought I was doing everything right, he seemed very pleased with Me but now he wants to play with her as well, all the time and tells me how hot she is and wishes for her to rape him and such. I do feel that this is my fault and it stems from being a novice, I'm still learning. I don't mind others topping him, but it seems like he has a sexual attraction to her. Am I over reacting? Thanks in advance, Mztress Trinity.

No, you're not overreacting. Fear of replacement is a valid fear. Simply talk to him about it and how important it is for you to feel important and central to him. Explain that, right now, him wanting to add a second all the time, or even ask for a second, makes you feel "less than". As the Dominant, you have the right to tell him that he can't ask for a second; that this scenario will only happen when you dictate. However, know that he has the right to react to this...and he may decide you're asking too much...but, if it's really important to you, you should put it out there.

Master Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to Mzterious)

Post #: 4

RE: My Subbie wants other Domme...... - 2/2/2007 9:13:55 AM

Dnomyar

Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline

Seems to me your not at the Domme level yet. You seem to lack self confidence. A class or a book on Self Assertion may help you.

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

Post #: 5

RE: My Subbie wants other Domme...... - 2/2/2007 9:22:54 AM

MasterFireMaam

Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

Seems to me your not at the Domme level yet. You seem to lack self confidence. A class or a book on Self Assertion may help you.

Whether this comment was to me or the OP:

Dude...this is harsh. We're all human and as such, we all have doubts and insecurities. If you're really trying to offer sincere advice, try to not insult the person first.

Master Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to Dnomyar)

Post #: 6

RE: My Subbie wants other Domme...... - 2/2/2007 10:25:01 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

he is yours? Then remind him whos choise it is. If you don't want to add a second.. DON'T add a second. If you change Your mind at a later date then fine, it becomes an option again.

I let My girl express any want or need she may have... but she knows that is simply information and I make the decisions.... sometime I maybe ameanable to taking on her wants, sometimes I won't.... not her choise.... in Your case... not his choise and you need to remind him of that fact.

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

Post #: 7

RE: My Subbie wants other Domme...... - 2/2/2007 10:25:22 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

What you are feeling is what you are feeling -- there's no right or wrong here, it simply is.

However, a bit of advice from some who was once new too and who is poly. Get a firm grip on each relationship before you bring someone else in. I'd wait a good year myself for each relationship to work through the initial thrills of newness and be on firmer ground.

I'd also frankly would have considered myself knowledgeable or experienced enough to teach or show anyone any technique until I'd been doing this for at least a few years. I'd suggest to my friends that they ask the people I learned from other than myself.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Mzterious)

Post #: 8

RE: My Subbie wants other Domme...... - 2/2/2007 11:08:00 AM

demureone

Posts: 14
Joined: 9/11/2005
From: Pembroke Pines, FL
Status: offline

<frowns>

Okay, I guess I'm a little disappointed in the responses I've seen here.

Why is it okay for a domme to feel insecure if her sub wants to add another domme, but if a female sub feels insecure about a dom wanting to have another sub, she's having unreasonable expectations? Don't you think it's just as realistic that a female sub might feel insulted and think "What? One good sub isn't enough for you?"

Aren't we all, dom/me and sub alike, human and as such, don't we all have doubts and insecurities. Isn't what we feel, what we feel -- there's no right or wrong here, it simply is?

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 9

RE: My Subbie wants other Domme...... - 2/2/2007 11:13:42 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: demureone
Why is it okay for a domme to feel insecure if her sub wants to add another domme, but if a female sub feels insecure about a dom wanting to have another sub, she's having unreasonable expectations?

I would say the people who say that are not ones I'd listen to.

In fact I think all the advice I've given says that it's very common and normal.

quote:

Don't you think it's just as realistic that a female sub might feel insulted and think "What? One good sub isn't enough for you?"

Aren't we all, dom/me and sub alike, human and as such, don't we all have doubts and insecurities. Isn't what we feel, what we feel -- there's no right or wrong here, it simply is?

Oh there is right and wrong when it comes to how to DEAL with the feelings, no mistaking that.

A lot of subs will get told "He's the dom, suck it up"

Those people have no idea what they are talking about and are living a facade of security which will break down eventually.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to demureone)

Post #: 10

RE: My Subbie wants other Domme...... - 2/2/2007 12:05:52 PM

Devilslilsister

Posts: 1262
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline

hmmmmmmmmmm i tell my Master all the time i want a boyfriend = ) i also told him it was there are things i'd like to have in my life he isnt providing.

Hey it works the other way around doesnt it? "i need more then one sub, because x, y, z"

Fair play if you ask me.

But then i suggest if you dont want others involved in your r/s this might not be the r/s for you. If he does and you dont, i suggest you make a friendly exit. From my experience when one wants others and the other doesnt...... all that happens is constant clashing over it.

_____________________________

My ability to cope with BS is at an all time low - me

i may look like i'm doing nothing, but i'm very busy at a cellular level

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 11

RE: My Subbie wants other Domme...... - 2/2/2007 12:30:02 PM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: demureone
Why is it okay for a domme to feel insecure if her sub wants to add another domme, but if a female sub feels insecure about a dom wanting to have another sub, she's having unreasonable expectations? Don't you think it's just as realistic that a female sub might feel insulted and think "What? One good sub isn't enough for you?"

Aren't we all, dom/me and sub alike, human and as such, don't we all have doubts and insecurities. Isn't what we feel, what we feel -- there's no right or wrong here, it simply is?

Firstly who the heck is saying one is alright and the other isn't?

The big diffrence is who is in charge. Who's responcibility it is to handle the situation correctly.

In this case She is supposed to be in charge and he is looking to have another come in. It is upto HER to put her foot down and control the situation.

Want an example of the other way around? Of how one of those you are 'apparently' disapointed in handles the reverse situation?

*I* am Poly, I have recently taken a Mono girl on. TPE, "My way or the highway" if *I* decide to take a second sub there is nothing stopping Me and My girl would do her damndest to cope with it.... however *I* know full well that at least currently she simply couldn't handle it, it would tear her apart emotionaly. she simply isn't secure enough in the relationship... It is MY responcibility to control the situation and *I* have a duty of care toward My girl that I took on when I accepted her submission. *I* have chosen NOT to act on the fact that I am poly until such time as I think she IS capable of handling it, until such time as it wouldn't harm her. Will I have a second girl again as I have had in the past? IF I can work with My girl and get her to that point then yes I will.

The advice above was about taking control of that which should be controled IF that is the kind of D/s relationship that is presented. SHE has to take control and KEEP control. It is her responcibility, Her choise.... just like My Own situation is MY choise and the way *I* choose to handle the situation I am responcible for.

So less with the knee jerk 'disapointment' sweetie.... you are very much barking up the wrong tree.... and not just with Me from what I know of some of the other contributors to this thread!

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to demureone)

Post #: 12

RE: My Subbie wants other Domme...... - 2/2/2007 1:23:45 PM

WalterRego

Posts: 276
Joined: 12/28/2004
Status: offline

I'm sure this must be very distressing to you and I don't mean to add to any discomfort, but (as a sub myself) this sentence stuck out

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mzterious

I thought I was doing everything right, he seemed very pleased with Me but

This sort of questioning makes it sound as if he had gotten you into this for him rather than you being into it on your own first and either bringing him in or meeting him. Or as if he is doing some serious topping from the bottom, telling you what he wants you to do to him. Of course there are always skills to learn and techniques to hone as well as things you shouldn't try without learning a lot about them from someone who knows. But his complaints don't sound like this is a problem of errant technique.

It's of course wonderful that you want your sub to be happy and satisfied etc but as the Domme, if what you are doing pleases you then you are doing everything right. If he doesn't like it, then maybe either you aren't compatible in desires or he really isn't a sub (or at least not yours). In any event if I were a Domme and my sub told me how hot my friend was, I'd kick him right out the door, if not a lot worse first.

I don't know, maybe this sort of thing would be acceptable between a bottom and a top. But even with two people who are exploring and learning together, one of you has to be the Dom(me).

As a Domme you have the minimal right to be happy and pleased in the relationship with your sub and the respect he is giving you. Even if you are a total novice and think you may have a lot to learn, this is something you should demand. Not only does it sound (to me) as if he has insufficient respect for you as a Domme, but little respect for you as a woman who he has been with for five months.

Coming from my side of the slash, if you are being tested you either need to get a grip on him or get rid of him. You might also want to consider the possibility that he is just a jerk, and get rid of him regardless.

_____________________________

A person should not choose the form in which he wishes to perform the service, but he should perform it in any manner the opportunity affords. He should be like a vessel into which anything may be poured - wine, milk, or water.
-Abraham Joshua Heschel

(in reply to Mzterious)

Post #: 13

RE: My Subbie wants other Domme...... - 2/2/2007 2:55:07 PM

LTRsubNW

Posts: 1604
Joined: 5/6/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mzterious

to join in regularly. I'm a novice Domme or one in training rather. I've been with my sub for 5 months. Recently one of my girlfriends, who is also a Domme in training asked if she can sit in and learn cbt and other delicious stuff. I said yes, we planned a time and W/we three got together and had a fantastic time. Now my sub is asking me if she can join in regularly, even in a sexual way. This all makes me very sick. Literally. I thought I was doing everything right, he seemed very pleased with Me but now he wants to play with her as well, all the time and tells me how hot she is and wishes for her to rape him and such. I do feel that this is my fault and it stems from being a novice, I'm still learning. I don't mind others topping him, but it seems like he has a sexual attraction to her. Am I over reacting? Thanks in advance, Mztress Trinity.

I don't like it.

_____________________________

Small deeds will always mean more than large intentions.

(in reply to Mzterious)

Post #: 14

RE: My Subbie wants other Domme...... - 2/2/2007 5:16:38 PM

demureone

Posts: 14
Joined: 9/11/2005
From: Pembroke Pines, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

Firstly who the heck is saying one is alright and the other isn't?

I appreciate your addressing this, Sir, really I do.

However, I've been lurking on this board for a very long time and I've seen countless submissives posting about their feelings regarding Doms introducing others into their relationships. While there are always those who will offer a kind word or two and sympathy, typically the "flavor" of the thread is one where the sub is labeled as insecure. And not in a good way.

There are typically comments thrown in bringing up all sorts of negative behavior from jealousy to passive-aggressiveness used to top from the bottom, suggestions that the sub search inside herself to determine why she might have these "bad" feelings, and as LA remarked, usually at least one or two who will say "he's the Dom, suck it up".

Then there are the dozen or so submissives who chime in with how they are perfectly happy with their Dominant playing and owning others, and that they would never dream of being insecure or questioning what their Dom wants.

Of course, the threads invariably conclude that communication is the key and that if the submissive cannot bring herself to accept the Dom's desires, then her best choice is to find another Dom.

The end result is an OP who is made to feel that she is flawed for feeling as she does.

The source of my disappointment, knee-jerk though it might be, was that in this thread where a Domme is facing very similar emotional issues, the responses have a decidedly different flavor.

Yes, she was given fairly sound advice on how to handle the situation. Generally speaking, the submissive threads I've seen contain relatively the same sound advice. But the difference was in the underlying support for the feelings shown by this Domme versus the same feelings expressed by submissives.

Perhaps the difference is simply because the number of submissives who come here seeking support and validation for their feelings are so numerous. At any rate, it was enough of a difference for me to notice.

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 15

RE: My Subbie wants other Domme...... - 2/2/2007 5:48:14 PM

MysticFireTopaz

Posts: 50939
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Dallas/Ft. Worth, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mzterious
to join in regularly. I'm a novice Domme or one in training rather. I've been with my sub for 5 months. Recently one of my girlfriends, who is also a Domme in training asked if she can sit in and learn cbt and other delicious stuff. I said yes, we planned a time and W/we three got together and had a fantastic time. Now my sub is asking me if she can join in regularly, even in a sexual way. This all makes me very sick. Literally. I thought I was doing everything right, he seemed very pleased with Me but now he wants to play with her as well, all the time and tells me how hot she is and wishes for her to rape him and such. I do feel that this is my fault and it stems from being a novice, I'm still learning. I don't mind others topping him, but it seems like he has a sexual attraction to her. Am I over reacting? Thanks in advance, Mztress Trinity.

I don't think you are over reacting. Your feelings are very understandable. I would definitely sit him down and have a talk with him. If this is making you uncomfortable, I think you should express that to him. He may not even know how you feel about it. I think how he reacts will be very telling. If he genuinely cares about you and is concerned with your feelings, he will not push you to do anything that makes you uncomfortable. If on the other hand, he doesn't seem to care and tries to push forward with his agenda, I'd get rid of him.

I had a similar situation arise, though I was the third party to the relationship. A Domme friend of mine who is relatively new to the lifestyle and her sub were at an event I was attending. She told me her sub was up for a good beating and she wanted me to help her deliver it. I didn't really have plans that evening, and things just spontaneously flowed into a scene that we all enjoyed. I think I played with them a time or two more, then the next thing you know HE e-mailed me in advance of an upcoming event and asked if I would play with them, copying her on the e-mail. I replied and said any requests must originate from the Mistress, not him, and unless I got an invitation from her, the answer was no. I never did get a request from her. Another time, he approached me after an event and asked if I wanted to go out and have a drink with them. I again told him I would only entertain requests from his Mistress, not him, and again, no request was forthcoming from her. I interpreted this as him trying to top from the bottom and involve a third party in their relationship that she apparently wasn't comfortable with, so I certainly didn't encourage him.

As your sub, he should be putting your needs and desires first. It may be that he isn't aware of how all of this is making you feel, though his telling you that he thinks she's hot and wants her to rape him does sound pretty insensitive on his part. After you have clear communication with him, I think you'll have a better idea of where you and the relationship stand.

Lady Topaz

(in reply to Mzterious)

Post #: 16

RE: My Subbie wants other Domme...... - 2/2/2007 6:37:05 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

Demure while I agree that those things do indeed happen- I do not agree that they are prevalent or even semi-regular on the boards here, certainly not on the poly boards.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to MysticFireTopaz)

Post #: 17

RE: My Subbie wants other Domme...... - 2/2/2007 8:49:42 PM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: demureone
Of course, the threads invariably conclude that communication is the key and that if the submissive cannot bring herself to accept the Dom's desires, then her best choice is to find another Dom.

The end result is an OP who is made to feel that she is flawed for feeling as she does.

And I fully agree with the first part of that whilst totaly disagreeing with the latter.

Yes she maybe well advised to find another Dom.... but not because of any lack in her (If she can deal, then she should deal.... if she can't ... then not much she can do about that currently) but simply that their needs are probably incompatable. It is the Doms responcibility to handle the situation as He sees best, she has but two choises.... "His way or the highway".... if His decision is one that she truely can't handle then it is either a compatability problem OR He isn't upto the task. Either way it isn't upto her to control it. That is HIS province.

My girl didn't ask for anything in regard to the fact that she is Mono and I am Poly.... she trusted in the way *I* aproach the duty of care.... believed I would find some solution that wouldn't harm her..... and I did so. she knows it will be worked on over the years ahead and that I expect her best efforts in that work (And she damn well knows I'd be able to tell if there was any lack of real effort!) and that I aim to bring her to be able to cope with the situation I eventualy want and the speed of that work will be slow enough to handle this happening without her being harmed (Uncomfortable possibly at times, upset likey on occassion, but harmed... she has confidence in the fact that I don't break My toys!) But then we ARE compatable and her trust in Me is quite justified.

As LA just mentioned, the attitude you seem to be talking about is NOT one I see prodominantly at ALL.... but maybe you are reading it diffrently and making assumptions!

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to demureone)

Post #: 18

RE: My Subbie wants other Domme...... - 2/3/2007 4:46:02 AM

demureone

Posts: 14
Joined: 9/11/2005
From: Pembroke Pines, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

she has but two choises.... "His way or the highway"....

But, Sir, you make my point exactly. It is a matter of attitude being positive or negative.

In the case of the OP of this thread, if the Domme's "way" is not prevailing then the sub is "banished" and all is good because she's stuck to her guns and insisted on what she wants. Her feelings are justified and she should feel good because she's done what is right for her.

In the case of a submissive, if she cannot bring herself to accept "his way", then she should leave. The implication being that the sub's own feelings have interfered. There is very little support for her standing up for "her way" and encouraging her to feel good about that.

In both cases, the end result is a failure of the union. The difference is in attitude and perspective.

Concerning your own circumstances, you might pat yourself on the back for being magnanimous in respecting your girl's wishes for the time being, but it doesn't appear to me that you are planning to make her feel positive about her own monogamous feelings. You've made it clear that TPE for you is "your way" or the highway. If your girl understands and accepts this, then she knows that if she ultimately fails to accept your wishes for poly, then she is gone. You may think that you are bearing the responsibility, but in fact, you've placed it squarely on her shoulders.

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 19

RE: My Subbie wants other Domme...... - 2/3/2007 5:00:51 AM

RavenMuse

Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: demureone
But, Sir, you make my point exactly. It is a matter of attitude being positive or negative.

And you continualy FAIL to see any point because you are stuck in a negative mindset!

Also you are only seeing and focusing on one issue... Mono Vs Poly

For the relationship to succeed there are far more factors... one BIG one is that it is a D/s relationship.... in My relationship she has one 'right', one choise... "My way or the highway" that is what she wants/needs and submits to.

she also knows *I* will not HARM her... wether she LIKES something is not a concern! The only HARM a Mono gets about a partner acting on being Poly... is being ripped apart by negative emotions, mostly stemming from lack of security, jealousy, compairing herself and thinking she is being found wanting.

Wether it takes months or wether it takes years I will work on those, mold her, shape her until those won't HARM My girl.... I will do this BEFORE I act on My Poly nature because I DO care for My girl. she values that fact and in turn also sees it as reasurance that *I* value HER.... remember she didn't ASK for this, our relationship is TPE, she has no right except to leave IF I chose to act on it... I CHOOSE not to, I CHOOSE not to harm My girl.

If it where HER choise... this would NOT BE a TPE M/s relationship... it would not BE the very thing she NEEDS for the rest of her life as well!

When I DO eventualy act on it... she will be at the point of being a secure girl happy about the fact that whilst she maybe submitting to something she doesn't LIKE, it is something that makes ME happy without harming her. she is Mine for MY pleasure and is safe and cared for in turn.

You don't seem to GET that as her Master, her emotional needs are MY responcibility... *I* control those just as I control every other aspect of her life. I will go WELL out of My way to protect My girl from harm.... but if it won't harm her, then it is simply a want... and those will get fullfilled or not as and when *I* feel like 'treating her'

< Message edited by RavenMuse -- 2/3/2007 5:07:47 AM >

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to demureone)

Post #: 20

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