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RE: Overcrowded prisons in the uk serious offenders are... - 1/28/2007 2:44:20 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I don't believe in mobs either, they make too much noise and they're very conspicuous.



lol Popeye - you're a stealth man then.......sneak up, get in quickly and rip an arm off...........or something like that.

Anyway, we could chat til the cows come home about the merits of vigilantes as opposed to rule of law. The unmistakable fact is your society has a relatively high level of serious crime and so does ours (in relation to the developed world). This tells me two things:

1) Your vigilante methods do not work.
2) The problem in both countries isn't the application of law - it is one of much deeper social and cultural failings.



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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Overcrowded prisons in the uk serious offenders are... - 1/28/2007 3:02:01 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Lets just say Popeye, that I'd be extremely well pleased with myself for despatching said burglar, and wouldnt ever acknowledge that I'd done any wrong!

Trouble in this country though is, that its almost impossible to be anywhere doing anything, without someone being able to see you, the place is so crowded. You can be driving in the mountains and there'll be two cars behind you, you know? Not much chance to dispose of a body, unless you have somewhere very private to get rid of it.

E

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RE: Overcrowded prisons in the uk serious offenders are... - 1/28/2007 3:29:10 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Gent, what happens when "the law" isn't working?
Lady, how far from the sea are you?

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Overcrowded prisons in the uk serious offenders are... - 1/28/2007 3:35:58 PM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline 		Not to mention something like 10% of all the cctv cameras in the world are within the UK. I once counted 60 on a 10 mile commute to work, and that is just the obvious and semi-covert ones. Oh and that magic little chip in my travel pass logs me in and out of my journey. Should I choose to drive rather than use public transport there are cameras that will log that journey too.

Its kind of ironic, despite all the "crime-prevention" systems such as cctv, crime is up and detection rates (for genuine crimes rather than what are known to the police as administrative detections) are down. Just imagine how full the prisons would be if all these public safety initatives actually achieved their stated aims.

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RE: Overcrowded prisons in the uk serious offenders are... - 1/28/2007 3:43:32 PM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Gent, what happens when "the law" isn't working?



Pretty much as I said in an earlier post, you don't bolt on another method known as mob rule. This is not working in your country based on the crime rates so what do you do when your vigilante methods aren't working?

IMO, look at society and understand what is going wrong. Nip the problem in the bud - i.e. prevention rather deterrents.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Overcrowded prisons in the uk serious offenders are... - 1/28/2007 3:55:18 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Gent, what happens when "the law" isn't working?



Pretty much as I said in an earlier post, you don't bolt on another method known as mob rule. This is not working in your country based on the crime rates so what do you do when your vigilante methods aren't working?

IMO, look at society and understand what is going wrong. Nip the problem in the bud - i.e. prevention rather deterrents.


Gent, like I said I don't believe in mobs but there's a lot to be said for mob rule.
Now, if your prevention stuff actually worked you'd have to start it in early childhood I presume.
What would you do, electrical shock? Beatings? Humiliations?
But then there'd be a 40 year period that the current criminals in their 20's would be raping, killing, stealing in so what do you do then?
And how can you use "like force" if the punk has a gun and you don't?
Can you guys carry peppergas in England?

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Overcrowded prisons in the uk serious offenders are... - 1/28/2007 4:21:24 PM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline 		Nope, under UK legislation such things are classed as firearms! Even using hairspray can be classed as assault with an offensive weapon.

Being loosely involved with law enforcement staff here are issued with dye sprays that are totally non-toxic and foam up in the attackers face causing them to have to stop and clear their eyes. It also leaves them bright blue for a few days and can also be obtained genetically tagged to match an attacker to the spray used

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Overcrowded prisons in the uk serious offenders are... - 1/28/2007 4:24:32 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Hi Popeye

Despite the name of my location, Stourport is actually an inland port built in the 18th century when they connected the canal from Birmingham to the River Severn here; the Severn then runs south to the sea and the port of Bristol, and then to the world. One could maybe dump a deceased burglar (tired out after a long squawk, but magnificent plumage) in the river and forget about it perhaps - except the previous navigability of the river depended on weirs and locks all down from here where a body could easily be trapped and found...

And no, we're not allowed anything in terms of self defence weaponry - pepper spray is considered an offensive weapon in the UK. Mind you, as you probably know considering your background, a pencil can be a lethal weapon if you know what to do with it!

NG is right though; much of the crime we have here is the result of a failure of social and cultural policy over the last 40 years or so. We have been far too little focussed on preventing the problems which lead to the majority of criminality, whilst we have been too much focussed on treating the symptoms of those problems by way of tea and sympathy periods, alternating with throw away the key periods in relation to offenders. We have also seen a major erosion of respect for the law, which has in no small way been contributed to by poor behaviour in the police themselves, and a scenario where we have thrown out respect for one another along with the social changes which have eroded respect for the establishment. Put that alongside the loss of respect for the church, a loss by which we threw the baby out with the bathwater because we mistakenly believed that the church was the safekeep of morality along with ridiculous notions and prejudices and it seems we thought we couldnt have one without the rest of it, and those are the problems we have to solve. We dont want a return to 1950, with all the crap that was in the country and its people at that time, but we do need to identify what was good from that time and what would be useful for now and reinject that into the population.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Overcrowded prisons in the uk serious offenders are... - 1/28/2007 5:52:58 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Hi Popeye

Despite the name of my location, Stourport is actually an inland port built in the 18th century when they connected the canal from Birmingham to the River Severn here; the Severn then runs south to the sea and the port of Bristol, and then to the world. One could maybe dump a deceased burglar (tired out after a long squawk, but magnificent plumage) in the river and forget about it perhaps - except the previous navigability of the river depended on weirs and locks all down from here where a body could easily be trapped and found...

And no, we're not allowed anything in terms of self defence weaponry - pepper spray is considered an offensive weapon in the UK. Mind you, as you probably know considering your background, a pencil can be a lethal weapon if you know what to do with it!

NG is right though; much of the crime we have here is the result of a failure of social and cultural policy over the last 40 years or so. We have been far too little focussed on preventing the problems which lead to the majority of criminality, whilst we have been too much focussed on treating the symptoms of those problems by way of tea and sympathy periods, alternating with throw away the key periods in relation to offenders. We have also seen a major erosion of respect for the law, which has in no small way been contributed to by poor behaviour in the police themselves, and a scenario where we have thrown out respect for one another along with the social changes which have eroded respect for the establishment. Put that alongside the loss of respect for the church, a loss by which we threw the baby out with the bathwater because we mistakenly believed that the church was the safekeep of morality along with ridiculous notions and prejudices and it seems we thought we couldnt have one without the rest of it, and those are the problems we have to solve. We dont want a return to 1950, with all the crap that was in the country and its people at that time, but we do need to identify what was good from that time and what would be useful for now and reinject that into the population.

E


Wow, you guys can't even have pepperspray?
You people need to start calling your govt. reps and have them start changing some laws!
What about carrying guns?

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Overcrowded prisons in the uk serious offenders are... - 1/28/2007 5:54:59 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Gent, what happens when "the law" isn't working?
Lady, how far from the sea are you?


popeye1250,

I read in a book once that it requires 2 cinder blocks to properly sink a human body.

When the body decomposes it will generate enough gas to float just one.

Sinergy

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Overcrowded prisons in the uk serious offenders are... - 1/28/2007 5:59:31 PM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
What about carrying guns?


Seriously Popeye, if hairspray is an offensive weapon and sprays are classed as illegal firearms as I stated earlier and for a cop to carry a glock requires more training than you boys give a ranger, what do you reckon are the chances of Joe Public carrying concealed?

EDIT
Under UK firearms legislation it is possible to commit an offence with a banana


< Message edited by sleazy -- 1/28/2007 6:02:21 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Overcrowded prisons in the uk serious offenders are... - 1/28/2007 6:07:01 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
What about carrying guns?


Seriously Popeye, if hairspray is an offensive weapon and sprays are classed as illegal firearms as I stated earlier and for a cop to carry a glock requires more training than you boys give a ranger, what do you reckon are the chances of Joe Public carrying concealed?

EDIT
Under UK firearms legislation it is possible to commit an offence with a banana



At least Monty Python showed how to defend oneself against a bowl of rasberries.

Sinergy

p.s.  If I remember correctly, Eric Idle wanted to use a Pointed Stick.

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Overcrowded prisons in the uk serious offenders are... - 1/28/2007 6:14:43 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Popeye - it was over ten years ago now that firearms came under very strict control here. It was following two awful incidents when psychologically ill people went on rampages and killed loads of people; the stupidity of it being, that neither of them should have had a licence for weapons granted by the police in the first place. All firearms apart from shotguns were banned, and shotguns were not to be supplied with capacity for more than three shots before reloading.

Thousands of perfectly ordinary, law abiding citizens saw their guns destroyed. My uncle nearly went to gaol when my granddad died and the house was found to be harbouring a collection of banned weapons, just because he'd inherited (he was actually charged with possession after calling them in, but he "got off" with a thousand pounds fine - see what I mean about respect for the police!?).

Pre all this, it was fairly simple where I live, in a pretty much country style county, to get a license. As it was I had a shotgun - a matchlock musket for battle reenactment, and it was so easy to get the licence. Immediately following this though, we had regular visits from police, had to get cabinets installed etc. Bearing in mind the weapon and how its loaded, and how unreliable it is, this was total overkill.

So now, several years on, the aims of this get rid of legal guns campaign have worked and we are free of gun crime.....NOT! I tell you now, for less than USD 2000-00, I could drive less than 10 miles right now and come home with not a rifle, not a handgun, but a fully automatic SMG of the type used by the drug gangs here - all of whom are armed to the teeth whilst we the law abiding are defenceless. Gun crime is going through the roof. It hasnt reached here thank goodness, but its less than 10 miles away now in the city, where weekly shootings are so fairly commonplace that they arent even headlines any more.

Until we have government by the people for the people, as you so often rightly say, rather than government by focus groups and tabloid headline, nothing will change.

Meanwhile, as Sleazy mentioned we have very few armed police; for my police area we have six armed response vehicles to cover three counties down the Welsh border, with twenty trained officers to crew them and another twenty trained for sieges and the like, out of 4000 police officers for the area.

E

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Overcrowded prisons in the uk serious offenders are... - 1/29/2007 10:49:24 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		The answer to the problem of massive growth in serious criminality in my opinion is not to arm  the police or allow the public to carry weapons and definitely NOT to look at "society" as the cause of the difficulties. If anything means <nothing or everything > its the idea of a homogeneous entity called "society"

.The answer as I have said before is to recognise that when a young boy at about 10-12 years old starts being seriously delinquent, such as torturing animals, serious bullying , general vicious anti social behaviour then punishment and discipline administered by others than those who screwed him up in the first place should be the order of the day.

What happens today are attempts to explain and explain away the behaviour until it gets so bad that something has to be done which results in overcrowded prisons. Dont forget that this overcrowding is occuring when only a small minority of criminals are actually caught !!!

The kind of prison regimes I have in mind would include Hard Labour, say humping heavy stones from point A  to Point B and back again. Maybe half an hour in the gym or on the computor or completeing their knitting when the work quota is complete.
They would never get out of prison until the total work quota, say 90 days at 8 hours a day, had been completed. That'll learn 'em !

On release the little darlings would be offered serious financial support to get back on their feet, the money coming from that saved by dismissing the general purpose do gooders who at the moment are doing so much bad.

No dismissed do gooder would be allowed to claim social benefits until after having completed 5 years useful work. That'll learn THEM !

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 1/29/2007 11:14:27 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Overcrowded prisons in the uk serious offenders are... - 1/29/2007 11:00:21 AM   
bludemonn


Posts: 2619
Joined: 9/10/2006
Status: offline 		Dear fellow villagers, I think we need to 'correct' this little problemette, we can all agree crime just isn't very nice! Ofcourse no one wants to lynch an innocent person, remember 4 hundred years ago when we all lynched a bunch of people who played around with herbs? They ended up as 'well done' steak @ the stake! Having said that we can not underestimate the criminally intentive and un-ruly mind. YES we do have the cc tv camera, YES we do know who the culprits are and I truly believe we KNOW what the punishments should be, but then came the lawyers and solicitors... My learned friends I put it to you that it's these people who need challenging, the legal process has got to be looked at and the power returned to the people who are supposed to be putting these bums to rights! My plan is a covert 'unit' hi-tech and who operate out-side normal regulative means, when the criminal minds realise they can be taken off the streets regardless of their highly paid solicitors then the problem becomes halved, yes you will get the ardent criminal still around but I can assure you it will be alot more manageable..ok gotta go back to the cell-block my internet time is almost u......    

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Overcrowded prisons in the uk serious offenders are... - 1/29/2007 11:44:35 AM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bludemonn
........but then came the lawyers and solicitors... My learned friends I put it to you that it's these people who need challenging, the legal process has got to be looked at and the power returned to the people who are supposed to be putting these bums to rights!........


Indeed, but these people and processes are only there because society as a whole figured (or didnt care) that a wishy-washy toothless legal system was going to be the best for the nation.

I guess its going back the the trial of Blair thread, but surely exists an argument that enacting legislation that will allow a spouse to earn lots of extra money at government expense is a clear conflict of interest?

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Overcrowded prisons in the uk serious offenders are... - 1/29/2007 2:38:02 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		There is no doubt whatsoever that the legal operatives, lawyers etc are a major part of the problem.

Example: at this moment in the UK 6 youths are on trial for trying to detonate explosives in a public place.
Very difficult thing to prove you might say, needing  expensive investigation and very shrewd legal minds to prove the case. Well err not really, they were filmed commiting the deed. Needless to say the trial is scheduled to last 6 months and then appeals etc etc etc....
Why is that then ? Never mentioned Islam once did I ?

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Overcrowded prisons in the uk serious offenders are... - 1/29/2007 2:47:47 PM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline 		I agree with the concept of a fair trial, now here is the but.......

I disagree with the tax payer funding lawsuits because criminals have been injured in the course of their activities and such other PC idiocy

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Profile   Post #: 38
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