Natural Selection (Full Version)

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Devilslilsister -> Natural Selection (1/23/2007 9:49:01 AM)

Natural selection to me, is abit of a cold way to view life.  Yet i do it anyways.  Driving down the road today, looking at the dead animals on it and pulling up beside one particular animal to check to see if it was a cat and what cat.  (we've alot of strays around)  Finding out it was just a raccoon in a very odd position. 

i tend to believe in natural selection when it comes to humans in general.  Yet i also think it goes over into the animal kingdom.  As humans cut down the land and build houses and sub divisions, it also cuts down on the predators that de populate the prey.  It seems to me, that these dead animals on the side of the road is just natures way of controlling the population.  They were selected. 

It sucks, yet there has to be some way to control populations.  I think nature coming up and slapping us humans in the face is away to control population as well.  Its all very logical.  (to me atleast)  My little one asked me a couple of days ago, why people have to die.  My answer was "because if people lived for ever, we would run out of room on the earth"   

So i personally think that natural selection is a way to control a variety of different populations that are otherwise uncontrollable.  (IE the human race) 

What do others think?  Anyone want to shoot holes in the theory?



OffTheBeatenTrak -> RE: Natural Selection (1/23/2007 12:01:01 PM)

Natural selection has made us who we are, also we've been playing with it for centuaries selective breeding of dogs, horse and other animals for are benifit.

But the progression of technology and medicien must i some way be effecting the natural selection of humans. Although nature is seemingly catching up i.e. Drug resistant super bugs and some species are even benefiting from are evolution. It appear every thing we do effects natures balance. Maybe it's natures way of trying to balance it self out.. Who Knows..

My question would be, with the involvment of technology and medicians saving and prolonging human life, does natural selection still apply, and if not were does that leave humans in relation to evolution...



luckydog1 -> RE: Natural Selection (1/23/2007 1:52:53 PM)

Off the beaten track.  Also we are on the verge of Genetically Manipulating our own gene codes.  Natural selection will have even less to do with it in the near future.  To very negative results in my opinion.



OffTheBeatenTrak -> RE: Natural Selection (1/23/2007 4:53:41 PM)

I'm sure that there is a large number of people who would argue that genetic enginering could have useful applications in the field of  medicine, as well as changing quaility of life. But by the same token i'm sure alot of people would argue that the risk of failure and the dangers of unknown factors would be too high, plus there is the good old question of ethics. Thankfully thats for the politition to decide. 

My opinion is they may be many uses for it, but at the moment there is just too many unknowns factors. As for so called designer babies, any enginearing for increased abilities i.e. physical, mental or any other aspect along these lines would ultimatly in my opinion have a negative effects on the human spieces in the long run. I believe that we have the ability to increase such traits with out enginering are DNA.

Sorry Devilslilsister, i've kind hijacked your thread back on track. I agree it is a very cold way to look at life, but nature can be cold some time. Natural selection effects every living creature on the planet, if the cheeta can run faster than its pray then the cheeta will survive, but if its pray can run fast than the cheeta then the pray will survive, this applies every animal, even plants to a degree. Those that have evolved to be fast, stronger, smarter survive.

And we as part of the animal kingdom are an intergril part this evolution, thats why alot of animal are now dieing off because of the way we use the planet. All animals compete for survival, those that lose die.

The problem is as a result of the developments of medicines and technology, the effects of natural selection that would normaly keep the human and animal population in check are greatly reduced and unbalanced, either resulting in rapid population growth for some species or a rapid decrease in population for other.  As a result any animal not able to adapt to the changes cause by humans are made extinct.

The other problem is that certain species are actually benifing greatly from the human population i.e rat, pigoens, foxes among others. These species too have expirenced rapid population growth in relation ours, causing yet more changes in the food chain.

I think ultimately nature will kick us back in too touch or at least give us a stern warning, there is already bactieras that have through natural selection and evolution become imune to are medications.

Some thing has to give some where, we as a species are having to much of an impact on every thing around us, i'm not 100 percent sure nature can keep up any more..



luckydog1 -> RE: Natural Selection (1/23/2007 5:15:27 PM)

Undoubtedly genetic engineering will bring great benefits and miracle cures, along with unforseen horrors.  I can not think of a single problem that science has solved with out creating several new ones, can anyone else?  It seems like there should be, but not that I have ever found.



Amaros -> RE: Natural Selection (1/23/2007 5:22:53 PM)

Natural selection doesn't "control" anything, shit just happens - there is no plan, the balance is between a given organism and it's ecosytem - when a given species can no longer sustain itself within an ecosystem, it either adapts to new ecosystems or it goes extinct. Dodo's and passenger pigeons went extinct when their ecosystem changed, introducing a new predator, man, to which they failed to adapt.

I always start an argument when I mention this, but modern medicine has added only a handful of years to the average human lifespan, which really, are probobly more than offset by the numerous toxins we are exposed to in an industrial society.

Lifespans increased dramatically when electricity became widely available - out ancestors you see, were having their lifespans cut short by the toxins they were exposed to in pre-industrial society - namely, smoke from the various sources of light and heat neccesary before the advent of electricity - most people died of emphysema or complications by their Thirties.



OffTheBeatenTrak -> RE: Natural Selection (1/23/2007 6:10:42 PM)

Amaros,

Shit just happens ??? Well some times, meteor boom, dinasuars gone or turned into birds which ever, usually alot more subtle than that but yes. Although puzzled as to where plan came from.??

Granted the enviroment does play a part in evolution but so do the animals that live with in it. Some Links on evolution and natural selection that may be useful if any one interested.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Origin_of_Species


"I always start an argument when I mention this, but modern medicine has added only a handful of years to the average human lifespan, which really, are probobly more than offset by the numerous toxins we are exposed to in an industrial society."

Also granted there are other factors as to human survival rate than just medicine.
But when i was talking about development of medicines and technologies i was actually talking the long development, i would of thought that advances made over the last couple of centuarys have made more than just a small impact on survival rates and life expentancy.?

Luckydog1,

I think some scienests tested and figured out how long to boil a perfect soft boiled egg for, don't think they had any complication there. (Joke) Lol :) Hang sarminela



Sinergy -> RE: Natural Selection (1/23/2007 7:08:05 PM)

Hate to be the party crasher, but statistically, we have increased our life spans from 36 to 72.

Why?

1)  Children dont die in infancy nearly as often.

2)  People dont die from various diseases nearly as often.

3)  People dont die from war as much.

In the middle ages, you take 1000 people.  When 20% of these die in infancy, 20% of them die of bubonic plague, 60% of them live to be 65,  etc.  The statistical MEAN age of death of the population is 36.

In the modern age, 2% of them die in infancy, 0% of them die of bubonic plague, and 98% of them live to be 70, the statistical mean age at death is 70.

So yes, we as a society have increased our average life span to 70, but this does not mean that nobody in the middle ages lived that long.

Sinergy

p.s. I am not a statistician; feel free to correct my math but dont expect me to argue.



Amaros -> RE: Natural Selection (1/24/2007 6:26:56 AM)

True, but much of the increase is due to better santitation made possible through electricity, modern plumbing/water treatment etc., sterilization, etc. - the percentage of people who die after contracting a certain disease is still pretty high, but modern sanitation prevents a lot of people from contracting those diseases in the first place.

Innoculation against certain diseases, polio, etc., has had considerable impact and reduced the frequency of pandemics to nearly zero, although the concept is not all that modern - antibiotics also save a number of lives and have prevented a lot of people from dying of things like pneumonia and Syphilis.



DeepWaters -> RE: Natural Selection (1/24/2007 6:36:52 AM)

Natural selection in terms of increasing the proportion of desirable genes in the human population occurs with very low frequency and has been for approx-50 thousand years, ...there simpy isn't enough environmental pressure to push evolution on a genetic basis in humans.  Epigenitically however things have been progressing nicely, as the selective pressure has mainly been other humans, and the criteria is our ability to socialize and work together, in order to conquer, out breed and exterminate peoples whose brains failed to develop the ability to socialize effectively. 



Amaros -> RE: Natural Selection (1/24/2007 7:27:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OffTheBeatenTrak

Amaros,

Shit just happens ??? Well some times, meteor boom, dinasuars gone or turned into birds which ever, usually alot more subtle than that but yes. Although puzzled as to where plan came from.??


The word "Control" occurs frequently in the OP - population control through predation, and environmental factors does occur with a precision that makes it almost seem teleological, but it's just the balance between the ecosystem and the organisms that inhabit it.

In a wet year, there is more edible foliage, herbivores thrive and increase their populations, which provides more sustenence for predators, who also increase their numbers - as the foliage gets eaten off, the herbivors decline in number, competition increases among both predators and prey, and they both die off untill their numbers are back in balance with the opportunities provided for in the ecosystem.

Humans have the ability to alter their ecosystem to some degree, for better or worse, which has enabled us to increase our population beyond what the natural ecosystem would normally support.



Fawne -> RE: Natural Selection (1/24/2007 7:55:22 AM)

http://www.answers.com/topic/natural-selection

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics

Odd, controversial, ..... but hey... you asked ;)



meatcleaver -> RE: Natural Selection (1/24/2007 8:06:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fawne

http://www.answers.com/topic/natural-selection

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics

Odd, controversial, ..... but hey... you asked ;)


Creating a genetically modified person with a theoretical ability is one thing. Creating the conditions in which that person will flourish is an entirely different problem. Hitler might have ended up with a nation of blue eyed blonds with herculean bodies but it doesn't mean they could be made to master anything other than their boot laces.



seeksfemslave -> RE: Natural Selection (1/24/2007 8:11:03 AM)

The point about medical practice being the driving force of increased life expectancy has been demolished already, quite right too.
We are about as near to making major changes to ourselves by genetic engineering as we are to curing cancer
ie nowhere near !!!
Sorry to be harsh but most cancer treatment is palliative only and in some cases can be seen to reduce the quality of what remains of a patients' life.



Sinergy -> RE: Natural Selection (1/24/2007 8:14:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fawne

http://www.answers.com/topic/natural-selection

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics

Odd, controversial, ..... but hey... you asked ;)


Creating a genetically modified person with a theoretical ability is one thing. Creating the conditions in which that person will flourish is an entirely different problem. Hitler might have ended up with a nation of blue eyed blonds with herculean bodies but it doesn't mean they could be made to master anything other than their boot laces.


I was reading something a while back in Discover about viruses.  The fear was that H5N1 (that virulent bird flu) virus might swap genes with a virus that transmits to humans.  While this is theoretically possible, the odds of it happening are lowered by the simple fact that viruses generally trade virulence with ability to transmit.  One theoretical reason for this is that a virus has to infect other animals, and if it kills too quickly, it is not around long enough to be transmitted.

My brain tends to make odd connections most of the time, and what makes me wonder about Hitler's eugenics programs is what traits humans would swap for blond haired, blue eyed, Dolph Lundgren type physiques.  Would this raise a bunch of Herculean dolts with the inability to learn how to actually tie their shoes?

Sinergy



DeepWaters -> RE: Natural Selection (1/24/2007 8:19:40 AM)

<quote>Would this raise a bunch of Herculean dolts with the inability to learn how to actually tie their shoes? <quote/>

Here are some of my notes for positive eugenics research--as you can see the genes for intelligence are not related to the gene for muscularity

Health

ATP-binding-cassette (ABC1) codes for cholesterol-efflux regulatory protein (CERP). bad mutations cause low HDL production--Chromosome 9q31.1 High HDL coorealtes with decreased aging phenotype and longer lifespan.


Physical Acuity

myostatin knockout chromosome 15--schwarzenagger mice uber muscled german boy  (concern depletion of muscles cell resevoir)

ppar-delta upregulation chromosome 6p21.2-p21.1-marathon mice increased mitochondria in muscle cells. healthy & lean

SirT 1 upregulation --Chromosome 10q21.3--lean increased HDL longevity increase.

Erythropoietin (EPO) --Chromosome 7q11-q22--increases aerobic capacity

Beauty

Pax 6--chromosome 11p13 locus-- visiual myopia

Vitamen D receptor-- chromosome 12p11.2-q14-- height

Aromatase--chromosome Y male height

hr gene--chromosome 8p12 knockout in epithial--less body hair

male pattern baldness AR gene X linked.

Mental Acuity

Chorney et al.104 discovered an allelic variation in a gene on chromosome 6, which codes for an insulin-like growth factor-2 receptor (IGF2R), that was linked with high intelligence...
Later studies identified a second IQ-related polymorphism in the IGF2R gene, and others in the cathepsin D (CTSD) gene, in the gene for an acetylcholine receptor (CHRM2)106, and in a HOMEOBOX GENE (MSX1) that is important in brain development107, 108.
Influence of each polymorphism was minimal — variants of CHRM2 accounted for a range of only 3–4 IQ points, whereas different forms of CTSD accounted for about 3% of the variation between people...None of these associations has yet been replicated by other research groups
Some patients with microcephaly also possess the ASPM mutation, indicating that a shortened version of the gene might lead to the development of fewer cerebral neurons and a smaller head.
Polymorphism in the human brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) gene is associated with impaired performance on memory tests
Catechol-O-methyltransferase (COMT) gene influences the activation of working memory circuits. COMT polymorphisms seem to be highly specific to some prefrontal cortex-dependent tasks in children.
Dopamine receptor (DRD4) and monoamine oxidase A (MAOA) polymorphisms are associated with differences in performance and brain activity during tasks that involve executive attention

Fokstuen S, Ginsburg C, Diplrernat, Zachmann M, Schinzel A Maternal uniparental disomy 14 as a cause of intrauterine growth retardation and early onset of puberty. J Pediatr 1999; 134:689-695 [CrossRef][Medline]




Amaros -> RE: Natural Selection (1/24/2007 8:22:45 AM)

Individual robustness tends to have much less to do with genetics than most people imagine, and much more to do with nutrition, enriched environment, etc.

Indigenous people probobly have much better genes than you do, for the simple reason that selection pressures are much greater - they'll still die sooner than you do, due to those same selection pressures wearing them out sooner. I doubt if anyone in here could live like a Bushman for more than a couple of weeks.



BOUNTYHUNTER -> RE: Natural Selection (1/24/2007 8:26:49 AM)

natural selection has been going on since the beginning of time,THE strongest male mates with the best females to carry his line.WE breed horses and hounds with the best of blood lines but have found that to breed the best with the best and hope for the best works well.WILLIAM



Sinergy -> RE: Natural Selection (1/24/2007 8:30:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Amaros

Individual robustness tends to have much less to do with genetics than most people imagine, and much more to do with nutrition, enriched environment, etc.

Indigenous people probobly have much better genes than you do, for the simple reason that selection pressures are much greater - they'll still die sooner than you do, due to those same selection pressures wearing them out sooner. I doubt if anyone in here could live like a Bushman for more than a couple of weeks.



On a related note, I lived off the land for a month after I graduated from high school, just so me and
a couple of friends could see what it was like to pare down to the 10 essentials.

Got a great tan.  Developed a unique aroma.  Got really sick of eating fish and weeds all the time.

Sinergy



Amaros -> RE: Natural Selection (1/24/2007 8:48:18 AM)

It's a nice place to visit...



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