RE: Illustion of Power

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RE: Illustion of Power - 1/20/2007 9:18:44 PM

Noah

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There is just so much wrong with this simplistic analysis, and it appears with such a self-satisfied air, that I suspect it wouldn't be in anyone's best interest to begin to try to sort things out.

If it helps you sleep at night, china, sleep on.

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RE: Illustion of Power - 1/20/2007 9:37:05 PM

Miraculix

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Interesting how some people understand the word "power"...

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RE: Illustion of Power - 1/20/2007 9:37:40 PM

cloudboy

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quote:

And my fellow subbies, you’re your own person.

Absolutely. A Dom wanting a good relationship should expect nothing less.

I thought your example of the limits of "power" in a relationship was a good one. A Dom can not make his monogamous sub into a poly one. I agree with this.

It is my belief that real power is excercised within limits, hence a Dom who understands his environmental limits is in fact empowered.

The Dom, on the other hand, who believes in limitless power is bound for failure because the power he seeks to exercise in ungrounded, unhinged --- maybe a bit like the US trying to remake IRAQ into something IRAQ itself is not ready for.

I think you are also astute in identifying love as a trumping influence over protocols, BDSM roles, and BDSM expectations.

One difference, though, between BDSM and 1984 ---- in 1984 power was built upon fear, lies, manipulation, information control, and terror. In BDSM, power is derived from the union of two core beings seeking to compliment one another. Sometimes participants can delude themselves, true, but that's a truism for people in all spheres of life --- in BDSM and well, well beyond.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 1/20/2007 9:44:04 PM >

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RE: Illustion of Power - 1/20/2007 9:51:18 PM

marieToo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: prettichinadoll

No one can “tear you apart, and build you up anew”, unless you don’t have this thing called “self”…

Maybe some people want this. Doesn't mean they dont have self.

Ds or otherwise, if you're able to occupy real estate in someone's head, you have power.

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RE: Illustion of Power - 1/20/2007 9:59:14 PM

amiciaN

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For me there is a difference between power and control. It is not my power I yield to my Master, it is the control of that power that I joyfully relinquish. If my Master tells me to do something that I find difficult to do and He encourages me, He is trying to empower me, not take power from me. Indeed, the more 'empowered' I become, the more power there is for Him to control. I am capable of doing a great many things, but it is my Master's guidance that controls what things I do. It is not the captain's hand on the helm that powers the ship through the seas, but it had better be guiding it.

Maybe it is nitpicking, but in my mind, an abused person is powerless and a submissive/slave is empowered to become the best person they can be by yielding control to a Dominant who will guide them.

As always, this is only my opinion and all people/relationships are different. ymmv

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RE: Illustion of Power - 1/21/2007 1:59:49 AM

LaMistressa

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You misspelled "Illusion".

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RE: Illustion of Power - 1/21/2007 3:17:56 AM

swtnsparkling

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quote:

marietoo
Ds or otherwise, if you're able to occupy real estate in someone's head, you have power.

I like that

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RE: Illustion of Power - 1/21/2007 4:33:54 AM

gailcd

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how much do we have free will? at the deepest levels of our brain are we really free? i know i have choices to make today and i know i can make those choices but i do fall into patterns of behaviour. those patterns can be reinforced by others to their advantage. if you are submissive you may start a relationship with kindness or consideration to another person. you may think this is normal behviour in a civilised world. you may think this is the way people behave when they have been brought up properly. the other may see this as weakness and push you further into submission. if done skillfully or just gradually you pattern of submissivness is reinforced. eventually you will be far more submissive than you were to start with. to get back to where you were is a long and painful journey as by now your environment makes it easy for you to stay a slave rather than feel the pain of struggling for independence. the 1984 book shows the lengths to which the state goes to reinforce the behaviour it wants. the citizens don't 'want' to be slaves but they do want to not suffer. they are made to suffer when they try to break free. it's perhaps not the imposition of suffering that shows that you have control (imposing suffering for suffering's sake is sadism and unless you are a sadist this is of no value to you) but the extent to which you can impose suffering to prevent your captive altering their behaviour in ways you don't want. at a personal level one way you can impose suffering is by withdrawing love or attention. it is perfectly legal to withdraw your love or attention and so if you find someone who craves your love or attention you have a very powerful way of controlling them unchecked by the interference of the wider community.

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RE: Illustion of Power - 1/21/2007 5:01:01 AM

meatcleaver

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General point

If a dom has power within the limits of consent, where is the power? This is no more than a vanilla relationship in reality because you only have the power of influence which everyone has in a relationship, be they dom or sub. I understand this is the real world and people have to remain within the law but consent and negotiation are equally part of a vanilla relationship, there is nothing different about it except a penchant for perversion but how perverted is perverted if it is all consensual? The sub is really getting what she wants or she walks out of the door so how real is the domination? No very to me. If domination relies on the subs infatuation, again its the same as vanilla. No doubt people have lived long enough to know that one can make someone who is infatuated do fairly extreme things if one wants even if they declare themselves vanilla. This is why I don't take seriously subs who want the 'one' to sub to. What they mena is they want the love of their life to have kinky sex and make coffee for etc. Hardly perverted. In fact pretty straight to me.

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RE: Illustion of Power - 1/21/2007 5:42:12 AM

ExSteelAgain

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Ah, there absolutely is real power that will enslave a woman and it is not what you find in Orwell. Since the beginning of time, women have run away from kings with all the concrete riches and power to be with poets who only have understanding and feelings. Just let the poet stand next to the King’s woman on a star lit night and point out the stars look so real she can almost reach out and touch them. She will do ANYTHING he wants to please him.

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RE: Illustion of Power - 1/21/2007 6:29:27 AM

gailcd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

Ah, there absolutely is real power that will enslave a woman and it is not what you find in Orwell. Since the beginning of time, women have run away from kings with all the concrete riches and power to be with poets who only have understanding and feelings. Just let the poet stand next to the King’s woman on a star lit night and point out the stars look so real she can almost reach out and touch them. She will do ANYTHING he wants to please him.

more like - woman marries king for his money; enjoys reading poet's silly love poems (which she shows to her female friends, "how sweet!" they laugh); sleeps with fit well endowed man

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RE: Illustion of Power - 1/21/2007 7:01:29 AM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gailcd

......sleeps with fit well endowed man

and that would be the King's Champion (a Knight of course)

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RE: Illustion of Power - 1/21/2007 7:18:50 AM

BOUNTYHUNTER

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The real power is watching her kneel all the time knowing it is she that enslaved herself not the other way around.TO know there is something about yourself that makes her want to belomg to you...WILLIAM

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RE: Illustion of Power - 1/21/2007 7:23:02 AM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

The real power is watching her kneel all the time knowing it is she that enslaved herself not the other way around.TO know there is something about yourself that makes her want to belomg to you...WILLIAM

Inspired submission... nothing more powerfully given

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RE: Illustion of Power - 1/21/2007 7:23:17 AM

BRNaughtyAngel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: swtnsparkling

quote:

marietoo
Ds or otherwise, if you're able to occupy real estate in someone's head, you have power.

I like that

Me too!

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RE: Illustion of Power - 1/21/2007 8:27:32 AM

marieToo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER

The real power is watching her kneel all the time knowing it is she that enslaved herself not the other way around.TO know there is something about yourself that makes her want to belomg to you...WILLIAM

Thats very sweet.

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RE: Illustion of Power - 1/21/2007 8:56:20 AM

SimplyMichael

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Cleaver,

I once held your view of power but I no longer do. Let's step outside of the BDSM world so that nobodies toes are stepped on.

Take swingers, the most common relationship pattern is where one of the partners NEEDs to swing and the other acquiesces and goes along for fear of losing the relationship. In legal terms that is coercion and what do you need to coerce someone? Power. I would argue and I am sure you would agree that that is "bad" power but you can't say it is consensual in the strict sense.

One often finds couples where it is one or the others interests that are primary and the other freely acquiesces and goes along for the ride. Again, that is a form of power to convince someone, event if there is no formal negotiation.

Would you say that parents wield no power over children? True they have a few more legal rights including legal ownership (on some levels) of children as they are not free to go.

Okay, back to S&M. I agree that for someone to stay in a relationship, that is healthy, they must be "getting" something out of it. For your argument to be true, that no power is exchanged, means that nobody does anything they don't want to do. Do really believe that nobody gets off on NOT getting what the want? That having someone finally tell them "NO" or "YOU SHALL" doesn't get them off? I am not talking about, fluffy stuff, "you shall be forced to cum" or that ilk, but genuinely telling/ordering someone to truly do something they do not want to do.

Before anyone thinks I am braying about me, not yet. I know I have touched this level but only fleetingly. The closest I have had was actually a vanilla relationship but I didn't know what I had, my kinky ones were with wonderful submissives but they were emotionally demanding. I no longer accept that (one of those lies we tell ourselves?) and a current play partner truly seems to be one that shows I have broken that pattern that I have/had.

So yes, I think power is very real and I think you can argue about semantics about whether it is the power or the control of that power that is exchanged but something very real can be exchanged.

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RE: Illustion of Power - 1/21/2007 9:57:07 AM

ExSteelAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gailcd

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

Ah, there absolutely is real power that will enslave a woman and it is not what you find in Orwell. Since the beginning of time, women have run away from kings with all the concrete riches and power to be with poets who only have understanding and feelings. Just let the poet stand next to the King’s woman on a star lit night and point out the stars look so real she can almost reach out and touch them. She will do ANYTHING he wants to please him.

more like - woman marries king for his money; enjoys reading poet's silly love poems (which she shows to her female friends, "how sweet!" they laugh); sleeps with fit well endowed man

Okay, a big dicked poet.

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RE: Illustion of Power - 1/21/2007 10:58:20 AM

darksdesire

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

General point

If a dom has power within the limits of consent, where is the power? This is no more than a vanilla relationship in reality because you only have the power of influence which everyone has in a relationship, be they dom or sub. I understand this is the real world and people have to remain within the law but consent and negotiation are equally part of a vanilla relationship, there is nothing different about it except a penchant for perversion but how perverted is perverted if it is all consensual? The sub is really getting what she wants or she walks out of the door so how real is the domination? No very to me. If domination relies on the subs infatuation, again its the same as vanilla. No doubt people have lived long enough to know that one can make someone who is infatuated do fairly extreme things if one wants even if they declare themselves vanilla. This is why I don't take seriously subs who want the 'one' to sub to. What they mena is they want the love of their life to have kinky sex and make coffee for etc. Hardly perverted. In fact pretty straight to me.

I'm curious: Are you saying then that domination is not real because a sub has the power to walk away, or because she submits out of infactuation? You said you don't take subs seriously who want to submit to the one, so do you think a sub should then be willing to submit to anyone at all in order to make that domination and submission real? Is it not real submission if the submission is inspired out of love? Just curious as to where you are going with this.

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RE: Illustion of Power - 1/21/2007 11:16:01 AM

amiciaN

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael.

....So yes, I think power is very real and I think you can argue about semantics about whether it is the power or the control of that power that is exchanged but something very real can be exchanged.

Something extremely real is exchanged, no matter what label is attached to it. I am uncomfortable with the concept of being powerless due past abuse issues, so I don't use that label. However the idea of being helpless is another concept altogether in my mind and one that I find rather appealing in context of my relationship with my Master. The flip side is that I sincerely feel that with His guidance, I have been empowered beyond anything I ever dreamed of. The world is my oyster and Master just handed me a fork.