Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/12/2007 9:20:29 AM   
Fawne


Posts: 462
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
The flip side of all of this is teaching a dominant how to react to your refusal. 


Thank you, SimplyMichael, for the realistic, informative post.

On the quote - How would you propose a submissive to to so, please.

sincerely, fawne

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/17/2007 2:12:24 PM   
Sirandlittle1


Posts: 538
Joined: 12/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

The flip side of all of this is teaching a dominant how to react to your refusal.  It is a skill to know when to haul off and wack a submissive's ass or to stop and order them to kneel at you feet and play with their hair when they refuse an order.


This got my attention, the bit ive highlighted in blue. What did you mean by that comment, would you mind expanding a bit please?
So, she knelt at your feet, twiddling with her hair...............How does that make you feel?

curious, little1

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/27/2007 6:36:12 PM   
Sirandlittle1


Posts: 538
Joined: 12/22/2005
Status: offline 		um

(in reply to Sirandlittle1)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/27/2007 7:40:53 PM   
LadyOunce


Posts: 126
Joined: 10/18/2006
Status: offline 		Hesitantion is not the same as contesting the Dom's will. Most dominants can tell the difference between fear/worry on the part of their sub and the truly defiant playing games, which is usually a way of trying to get abused.

_____________________________

Above all, be true to yourself, and if you cannot put your heart in it, take yourself out of it. -Jackson

Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts. -Einstein

Do not consider painful what is good for you. -Medea

(in reply to patina)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/27/2007 8:04:50 PM   
bearincuffs


Posts: 1904
Joined: 12/16/2006
Status: offline 		  I hope this may shed some light as I'm finding that as a newbie myself, there are a couple issues my Master had brought up and I can feel myself instictively think this isn't going to happen! At this point I don't believe it is a battle of wills betwwwen U/us but my own newness to this life and from my old ways of thinking. 
   It is possible that a brief reluctance to follow orders stem from the fact that for newbies, they are being guided into thinking and serving in a totally different way than when we lived a vanilla life. Yes we want to serve and we need to serve because of our nature, plus it's simple human nature to question something which we either don't understand or we are reluctant to make a wrong decision.
   Master may not be too pleased with what I am about to write but I feel I need to say this!!!!  I strongly think a slave does not have to be 100% compliant to their Master, a slave is still fully capable of serving to the best of their ability and still keep a sense of self.

_____________________________

property of Master Dave of the House of Gemini

An it harm none, do as thou wilt
Do what you will, so long as it harms none
An it harm none, do what thou will
That it harm none, do as thou wilt
Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill

(in reply to patina)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/27/2007 8:15:22 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I do not know what those sites have to do with your original question which is

quote:

Does a refusal or even a stalling about an order necessarily always mean a battle of wills or maybe it could just be the sub's newness, or the fear of losing one's self? 

 
To be honest, it is an individual thing in my mind to why a submissive is disobedient to her dominant. It could be any of those reasons you listed. It could also be that they do not trust their dominant's order. I had this happen in a previous relationship, I thought what my former dominant said was bad for me, exposed my family to knowledge about my life that I did not want them to have for a stupid reason.... so I ignored his order, and we did not talk for 3 weeks over it. I was not testing him, I was not challenging him, he set himself up in a position of insisting I do things I had not consented to do within the parameters of our relationship.
 
I am sure there are hundreds of reasons why submissives disobey their dominants. Some of them are logical reasons, some of them are stupid ones, sometimes the submissive is right, sometimes it does not matter if she is right. It comes down to this, each one of us has to live with the decisions that we make when we submit to someone.... in my view it is a choice. I know some will say it is not a choice, but in my mind it is a choice because if my dominant has some whacked out ideas of something that I should do that would jeopardize me or my family, I am not going to obey that order knowing that it could mean I am released. That is a choice that we all have, submit or not.
 
So if you were with someone that abused drugs, overspent money in a way you did not like, was abusive in a myraid of ways... you have a choice, submit or do not.


You know, I am from the school of thought that if the baby is crying, there is something wrong.

If the submissive is upset, there is something wrong.

I think it is an overwhelming sense of hubris on my part to think I know better about what is going on than she does.

On the other hand, in a situation where the same issue is presented each and every time, I start to get the idea that I am not a therapist.

Once is happenstance.

Twice is circumstance.

Thrice is enemy action.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/27/2007 8:25:04 PM   
CandleInTheWind


Posts: 347
Joined: 10/20/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
To be honest, it is an individual thing in my mind to why a submissive is disobedient to her dominant. It could be any of those reasons you listed. It could also be that they do not trust their dominant's order. I had this happen in a previous relationship, I thought what my former dominant said was bad for me, exposed my family to knowledge about my life that I did not want them to have for a stupid reason.... so I ignored his order, and we did not talk for 3 weeks over it. I was not testing him, I was not challenging him, he set himself up in a position of insisting I do things I had not consented to do within the parameters of our relationship.
 
I am sure there are hundreds of reasons why submissives disobey their dominants. Some of them are logical reasons, some of them are stupid ones, sometimes the submissive is right, sometimes it does not matter if she is right. It comes down to this, each one of us has to live with the decisions that we make when we submit to someone.... in my view it is a choice. I know some will say it is not a choice, but in my mind it is a choice because if my dominant has some whacked out ideas of something that I should do that would jeopardize me or my family, I am not going to obey that order knowing that it could mean I am released. That is a choice that we all have, submit or not.
 
So if you were with someone that abused drugs, overspent money in a way you did not like, was abusive in a myraid of ways... you have a choice, submit or do not.


Julia

I just do not understand your insistance that she had a submissive choice.....what exactly was she supposed to do???   I suppose there is where the difference between beng a submissive and a doormat...It is my belief that once a relationship becomes abusive in any way...then there is no D/s anymore...and there for there is no choice for the submisisve to make...as the submission is null at that point.  abuse negates the ability to submit....at that point it is a vanilla choice ...a vanilla choice is not a D/s choice!

_____________________________

It is better to be hated for something that you are
than it is to be loved for something you are not

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/27/2007 8:34:24 PM   
CandleInTheWind


Posts: 347
Joined: 10/20/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: patina

First please don't flame me over this as I know it probably has been discussed before and I should know the general answer.  I am asking for more indepth thoughts. 
 
I was reading a post earlier about a sub having conflicts with obeying orders.  People were talking about it being a contest against the Master, or she was testing her Master.  My question is 
Does a refusal or even a stalling about an order necessarily always mean a battle of wills or maybe it could just be the sub's newness, or the fear of losing one's self? 
 
It may not be a case of testing the Master or having a contest with Him.
 
Any thoughts on this and how a new sub can not fall into the trap of being a  "sassy pain"?
 
As I am strong willed I worry about this happening wth me, and explain it to each person I talk with. 
You will ask how can i be a sub?  because i waited hand and foot on my husband for almost our whole marriage until my stroke.  Only until i was physically incapable of physical submission did i quit, but mentally i continued until 5 yrs before the divorce.  That was when i said make a choice the gambling or the family he chose gambling.  I got tired of losing 30,000 to his poker friends, or wherever it went.  I am saying this to show i may be strong willed but I am also submissive too YOU can be BOTH.  I am reading as much as possible to learn and understand the emotional, spirtual, and mental ideas  and ideals of a submissive and a slave.  I was told of two great sites that have good writings in them.
 
www.leathernroses.com/mikael
 
This one has an actual essay about proper protocol in talking with a Master.   A little on the uppity side but good for knowledge.
 
 
 
 
http://www.submissivewomenspeak.net/subbook.htm 
 
Have not read too much of this one yet.
 
   
 
i hope these sites help others. 
 
I hope i have explained my question enough and not confused everyone.  Thank you for your patiance with my difficulties in posting at times.
 
 
Patina


sweet patina.

I have been in a relationship with my Daddy  and there were times when i was a down right brat...and refused to do things...then there were times when i refused him becasue it broke our agreement  then there were times when i refuesed/hesitated becasue i was uncomfortable but eventually did it any how...

the vast majority of the times when i hestitated/refused was due to our agreement...had to do with out honesty clause...We had an honor code  I was never to lie to him....and on several occassions he wished for me to oppologize for somethign that i did not do...since i was innocent I would not lie and there for my refusal was actually not a refusal.  but that is just my experience...One really cannot group the reason for people doing anything  becasue above all we are individual people...each of us is first and formost our individual selves...it is that reason that we are appealing to our signifaicant others...becasue we are us!

_____________________________

It is better to be hated for something that you are
than it is to be loved for something you are not

(in reply to patina)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/27/2007 10:08:21 PM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		Personally I think it boils down to stubborn maintenance of control over their independence.  They say they want to give all, but I have yet to meet a woman in 18 years that truly does.  It is not typically in their nature to do so and it is DEFINITELY not in a man's nature.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/27/2007 10:20:50 PM   
SeveredNeuron


Posts: 57
Joined: 8/6/2005
Status: offline 		In the end, I think (what most people seem to be saying) boils down to respect, not just of the sub to the Dom, but the other way around as well. We all have limits whether they be ones which common (such as scat) or ones which are not so common, or do not come up very often (like not wanting to look 'old' among young people).

My personal limit is my time, i know it sounds weird, but i have had to refuse alot of Doms because of it, but i guess i have a few weird priorities.
What i am trying to say is.. a D/s relationship is supposed to be about mutual respect and UNDERSTANDING. If you refuse to do something, your Dom has the right to know why and vice versa. The whole world needs to learn to communicate. :).

Just my two cents before i head off to work again!

--Ania

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/28/2007 4:48:25 AM   
julietsierra


Posts: 1841
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amuzingtoyou

Not all submissives are the same. Not all submissives are slaves and follow orders immediately.



lol...and not all of us who are slaves follow orders immediately either. Sometimes, it's simply about being given a directive with the idea that the "how" is left up to us to figure out. The small stuff happens immediately. "E-mail me the link for this tonight" gets done. "You need to get busy this year and get some of this weight off. It's unhealthy." takes a bit more time as I attempt it a few times, fail, figure out what's going wrong, then start again (I've lost 30 lbs so far). While insecurity can play a part (and in this case, a disbelief that I can even DO it), often here, it's more about trying to figure out HOW to get something done.

That being said, at the beginning of this relationship, I did my fair share of testing. I have this HUGE issue with dominants I can manipulate. I'm VERY good at it. You know that scene from My Phat Greek Wedding, where the mother tells the daughter that things will work out - that they just have to approach the father in a way that will make what they want seem like it was his idea? That's me to a T. I've had dominants tell me to do something and I've been oh-so agreeable - all the while, giving them "logical" reasons why I really shouldn't do it. And when they change their minds and agree that I shouldn't...I kind of gloat. May not be pretty, but I do. And eventually, after all that loses it's flavor, I walk away.

So, I have always been searching for someone that I couldn't do that to. It is my litmus test - as unfair as it might be. And in this relationship, I tried my best to get him to do this. He'd just smile or laugh or even better, nod his head as if he was agreeing with me (oh, the anticipation of the win was strong then!!)...and then tell me to do what he said anyway.

When I started laughing with glee, he was completely confused. When I totally screwed myself up and told him WHY I was laughing with glee was when I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt, that I was hooked. Who knew you could orgasm from simply being given an order?!

Personally, at the beginning when you're checking out the mettle of a dominant, just as he's checking out the mettle of you, I don't see whatever you're going to do to be assured you have the right person for you to be a bad thing. Lots of people are wolves in sheep's clothing - or worse, sheep in wolves' clothing, and it is important to figure out a) do you want the wolf or the sheep, and b) is he who he says he is? What's more important is that you know yourself well enough to know what you want, and that that's who you present to the dominants that you meet. Those who are worth anything to you will stick around.

juliet

(in reply to amuzingtoyou)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/28/2007 5:29:11 AM   
sweetnurseBBW


Posts: 2464
Joined: 1/26/2006
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		I am strong willed but I am not disobedient and defiant against my Master. I think sometimes newbies do it just because of inexperience. My role is to be obedient, by being a "brat" or disobedient , what is the purpose? Those that continuously do it need to remember why they are there in the first place. If they have a question about something that has been asked to do they need to find a mature and  respectful way to ask. Being a sub or slave doesn't mean you dont have a strong will or personality.

_____________________________

Sir Pain's pain slut

(in reply to patina)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/28/2007 6:44:59 AM   
dawntreader


Posts: 3045
Joined: 11/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SeveredNeuron

In the end, I think (what most people seem to be saying) boils down to respect, not just of the sub to the Dom, but the other way around as well.  a D/s relationship is supposed to be about mutual respect and UNDERSTANDING. If you refuse to do something, your Dom has the right to know why and vice versa. The whole world needs to learn to communicate. :).

Just my two cents before i head off to work again!

--Ania



i think you nailed it ! Well said!

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to SeveredNeuron)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/28/2007 6:58:00 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin

Personally I think it boils down to stubborn maintenance of control over their independence.  They say they want to give all, but I have yet to meet a woman in 18 years that truly does.  It is not typically in their nature to do so and it is DEFINITELY not in a man's nature.


You touched on something here,  which I bolded.  Behavior modification can be extremely difficult.  I found that as much as I wanted to give everything over, I failed to.  And I failed to because I was too afraid to let go of that very last bit.  The more control a slave gives over, the more tightly she (or he, using she because I'm a she) may hold on to what she has left.  She may not even realize she is doing this.  I continued to get tripped up over the same demons and would react the same way each tine, until I realized this trait of mine.  And I only realized it as a result of a lot of soul searching and an unrelenting attemnpt to seek answers for myself.  The subconscious mind can be a lot more influential than the concsious one.

(in reply to SirKenin)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/28/2007 7:35:37 AM   
SlyStone


Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline 		Does a refusal or even a stalling about an order necessarily always mean a battle of wills or maybe it could just be the sub's newness, or the fear of losing one's self?



Or it could just be human beings learning to communicate their needs and expectations to one another.

What is fun and challenging and interesting about D/s/bdsm for me is the tension that results when intelligent people engage each other.

If it is only control and submit and every action was met with the same determined reaction than how fucking boring this would be.




_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

(in reply to patina)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/28/2007 10:17:00 AM   
SirDominic


Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline 		I was reading a post earlier about a sub having conflicts with obeying orders. People were talking about it being a contest against the Master, or she was testing her Master. My question is : Does a refusal or even a stalling about an order necessarily always mean a battle of wills or maybe it could just be the sub's newness, or the fear of losing one's self?

Mostly I have found it pretty easy to differentiate between defiance and testing versus insecurity and trying to cope with an issue that is very difficult for the sub/slave. I'm not as likely to punish in the latter case.

A lot depends on the person you are with, too. Some subs just LOVE to test limits; they want to see how much they can get away with, and will quickly lose interest if the Dom doesn't have the strength of character to put them in their place. This can lead to a tricky relationship because, like the boy who cried wolf, when this girl actually faces a trial that does push her beyond her comfort zone, it can be difficult for the Dom to tell the difference.

Other subs/slaves have an extreme need to submit. They would never consider willingly defying their Master. These are the subs that are more likely to offer resistance because they are honestly scared of being pushed past their comfort zones. They require a Master who has taken the time to really know their slave, know her fears, and will help her move past them at a pace she can handle.

You also asked about any thoughts on how a new sub can not fall into the trap of being a "sassy pain"? The answer is Know Thyself. If it is in your character to be sassy, it is not going to be easy to simply turn that off just because you have entered a D/s relationship. If it is something about yourself that you want to change, you need to talk to your Dom about this trait and ask him to help you to retrain yourself.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

(in reply to patina)
Profile   Post #: 36
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2]
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.172