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sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/10/2007 9:40:15 AM

patina

Posts: 493
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: no
Status: offline

First please don't flame me over this as I know it probably has been discussed before and I should know the general answer. I am asking for more indepth thoughts.

I was reading a post earlier about a sub having conflicts with obeying orders. People were talking about it being a contest against the Master, or she was testing her Master. My question is
Does a refusal or even a stalling about an order necessarily always mean a battle of wills or maybe it could just be the sub's newness, or the fear of losing one's self?

It may not be a case of testing the Master or having a contest with Him.

Any thoughts on this and how a new sub can not fall into the trap of being a "sassy pain"?

As I am strong willed I worry about this happening wth me, and explain it to each person I talk with.
You will ask how can i be a sub? because i waited hand and foot on my husband for almost our whole marriage until my stroke. Only until i was physically incapable of physical submission did i quit, but mentally i continued until 5 yrs before the divorce. That was when i said make a choice the gambling or the family he chose gambling.  I got tired of losing 30,000 to his poker friends, or wherever it went. I am saying this to show i may be strong willed but I am also submissive too YOU can be BOTH. I am reading as much as possible to learn and understand the emotional, spirtual, and mental ideas and ideals of a submissive and a slave. I was told of two great sites that have good writings in them.

www.leathernroses.com/mikael

This one has an actual essay about proper protocol in talking with a Master.   A little on the uppity side but good for knowledge.

http://www.submissivewomenspeak.net/subbook.htm

Have not read too much of this one yet.



i hope these sites help others.

I hope i have explained my question enough and not confused everyone. Thank you for your patiance with my difficulties in posting at times.

Patina

_____________________________

a diamond in the rough

Post #: 1

RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/10/2007 9:51:29 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

I do not know what those sites have to do with your original question which is

quote:

Does a refusal or even a stalling about an order necessarily always mean a battle of wills or maybe it could just be the sub's newness, or the fear of losing one's self?

To be honest, it is an individual thing in my mind to why a submissive is disobedient to her dominant. It could be any of those reasons you listed. It could also be that they do not trust their dominant's order. I had this happen in a previous relationship, I thought what my former dominant said was bad for me, exposed my family to knowledge about my life that I did not want them to have for a stupid reason.... so I ignored his order, and we did not talk for 3 weeks over it. I was not testing him, I was not challenging him, he set himself up in a position of insisting I do things I had not consented to do within the parameters of our relationship.

I am sure there are hundreds of reasons why submissives disobey their dominants. Some of them are logical reasons, some of them are stupid ones, sometimes the submissive is right, sometimes it does not matter if she is right. It comes down to this, each one of us has to live with the decisions that we make when we submit to someone.... in my view it is a choice. I know some will say it is not a choice, but in my mind it is a choice because if my dominant has some whacked out ideas of something that I should do that would jeopardize me or my family, I am not going to obey that order knowing that it could mean I am released. That is a choice that we all have, submit or not.

So if you were with someone that abused drugs, overspent money in a way you did not like, was abusive in a myraid of ways... you have a choice, submit or do not.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to patina)

Post #: 2

RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/10/2007 9:56:37 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: patina
My question is
Does a refusal or even a stalling about an order necessarily always mean a battle of wills or maybe it could just be the sub's newness, or the fear of losing one's self?

A battle of wills in this scenario almost always is sourced from insecurity.

quote:

Any thoughts on this and how a new sub can not fall into the trap of being a "sassy pain"?

Well the obvious way is not to let them. It actually is very easy IMO to spot, and simply ignore. Do not engage.

But that only works if the sub is self-aware enough to realize that they aren't getting the reaction they desire and that perhaps they should change their behavior because of it.

Otherwise, you tell them "I have given you this order, do you not understand, or is there something else wrong?" Don't fight about the order. In fact, don't fight at all. Simply keep it calm and open. Ask them questions so that they must answer and DIRECTLY deal with the underlying issue.

Most people battle when there's something they can't get out directly. By addressing the issue directly and refusing to engage in the battling behavior, you can set up a new process to work through things AND show that insecurities will not rule the relationship.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to patina)

Post #: 3

RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/10/2007 10:01:40 AM

desertdancer

Posts: 1095
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline

I can only answer for myself.. not others, however if I stall it isn't because I am testing the one I am with, it is more of a testing of myself, of my will, of my readiness or eagerness or lack there of to serve. For me, in moments where I stall it is because I am tripped up in my own head space, my own hang-ups. I'm still new enough that responding isn't always second nature, sometimes it is forced in me, not because I want to be a brat or I am testing His strenght or power, it is because I am not sure of my own strenght or power or my own gracefulness. Sometimes it could be because I was left on my own to long with my own free will, then when asked to do something it gives me pause, reminds me who is in charge and why, sometimes it takes me a moment to go "Oh yes, he is in charge." and then act accordingly. I've often got my own internal dialogue running in my mind that I have to hush and quiet so that I can be in the moment and not off in wonderland.

I find that in those moments where I do stall, where I do have to ask myself "who is in charge here? AND why did I want this" those moments my surrender is renewed, refreshed and strenghtened within me..so for me I think those stalling moments are good. Now if Master will agree with me on that, I dunno...

~dancer

_____________________________

* Shimmy Shimmy *

(in reply to patina)

Post #: 4

RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/10/2007 10:11:51 AM

Fawne

Posts: 462
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: patina

I was reading a post earlier about a sub having conflicts with obeying orders. People were talking about it being a contest against the Master, or she was testing her Master. My question is
Does a refusal or even a stalling about an order necessarily always mean a battle of wills or maybe it could just be the sub's newness, or the fear of losing one's self?

Patina

Not a silly Q at all, patina! I've been resistant, not on purpose, or to be a brat, or an ass or anything.

- newness -check.
- need for clarity -check
-insecurity -check

to learn to find that balance of the strength to obey, put ego aside and handle what a master dishes out. The fluidity to hold strong while soft. The yielding of will, to be attentive to his needs, to accept his lead and power... all without weakening. Grace.

In our society this devotion is almost alien. But, deep inside many of us - it is there. A primal drive, at our core, I beleive.
With a secure, stable, caring relationship ( my needs to achieve this - other's needs vary) I know I can do it.
Enough said by me...

Thank you for asking and all the best to you
Fawne

(in reply to patina)

Post #: 5

RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/10/2007 10:34:11 AM

mymasterssub69

Posts: 566
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

for me personally, it was a battle of wills to (a)see how far i could push my 1st Master until i got my way or some sort of compromise and (b)a bit of insecurity of my willingness to let go of control.

i was a very stubborn sub (at times i still am but within reason) and so use to having my way all the time. not excusing my bratty behavior but when you're the only child (plus army brat) for a very long, you get use to manipulating parents into doing and seeing things your way. my 1st Master quickly broke me out of that bad habit when i chose the difficult way instead of the easy ...either way one of us was going to bend and He knew it wouldn't be Him.

_____________________________

there is something infinitely magical
about a Daddy Dom
...something only a little girl
can understand.

collared on 16th Jan 2007 by bigsambaman, my Daddy

(in reply to patina)

Post #: 6

RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/10/2007 10:36:08 AM

MaryT

Posts: 553
Joined: 12/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: patina

First please don't flame me over this as I know it probably has been discussed before and I should know the general answer. I am asking for more indepth thoughts.

If everyone on this group stopped discussing everything that has been discussed before, these boards would be empty. I don't know how to help with your question. There is a difference between not doing something to spite him/her and resisting doing it because it feels wrong for whatever reason. The latter involves wanting to please (a smart dom would capitalize on that)... but it's a big diff, IMO. Plain ol' talking it out is good for most situations and likely good for this one too. :)

I'm not sure about all the essays and all because relationships are complicated and each one is unique, just like in the vanilla world.

I totally relate to what you said about waiting hand-and-foot in the vanilla world. I did that too. Being clever enough to survive is different from being willful. It's just plain being smart! Who wants a stupid submissive? No dom that I would want would find a lack of survival skills appealing ...

MaryT

(in reply to patina)

Post #: 7

RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/10/2007 10:39:13 AM

kittensmailbox

Posts: 744
Joined: 1/7/2005
From: Youngstown, Ohio
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mymasterssub69

for me personally, it was a battle of wills to (a)see how far i could push my 1st Master until i got my way or some sort of compromise and (b)a bit of insecurity of my willingness to let go of control.

i was a very stubborn sub (at times i still am but within reason) and so use to having my way all the time. not excusing my bratty behavior but when you're the only child (plus army brat) for a very long, you get use to manipulating parents into doing and seeing things your way. my 1st Master quickly broke me out of that bad habit when i chose the difficult way instead of the easy ...either way one of us was going to bend and He knew it wouldn't be Him.

i second that train of thought....

_____________________________

~softly smiles

~lowers her eyes in respect~

~kitten

(in reply to mymasterssub69)

Post #: 8

RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/10/2007 10:39:31 AM

onestandingstill

Posts: 1335
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline

I too am VERY strong willed in my life and VERY submissive in a relationship.
I too am relatively new (less than 2 years in) to this life.
What I found was with my first Sir was the parts of myself I could not change were what he considered resistant.
He'd hurt me emotionally and then say I'm not following my training as the pain he caused me was evident in my face.
It wasn't I was not following orders to the letter it was more of a case of he could see my internal struggle to comply with things I personally didn't agree with.
In the end who I was as a human being became unacceptable to him.
Once I left I figured out the differences in our personalities and ideals of how to live in this lifestyle were so different it was toxic to us both.
There are times when I was resistant of what he wanted of me directly, but it was things like he wanted me to treat people I didn't respect at all like they were my best friends, and he wanted me to lie for him.
As those in my mind and heart were not based on honor or integrity I just could not comply without resisting this as it completely went against everything I believe in.
I do believe and have seen subs play the resist game to see how thier Doms would handle it. I personally don't think being maniuplative like that would ever work for me or see the benefits of the cat and mouse game.
suzanne

(in reply to patina)

Post #: 9

RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/10/2007 10:44:27 AM

mirkala

Posts: 19
Joined: 1/10/2007
Status: offline

mirkala thinks that maybe it's fear, maybe it's a hard limit that slave discovers in that moment. mirkala doesn't think a slave could offend his/her Master with intentionality.

(in reply to onestandingstill)

Post #: 10

RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/10/2007 10:45:29 AM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline

Hi patina,

i would not worry to much about disobediance...for the most part it wont come up because you intention is to serve...but there will be times it will come up, and these are really great times in many ways because it means you hit unsdiscovered unnegotiated places in the relationship ie: places to grow.

finding out you have lil landmines, or fears, or past wounding is sort of what my journey into D/s has been....an approach to personal growth and healing. Every time i hit one of those places it was time to call a time out and reevaluate what my prioritys were, what my long time vision of my self, and what ultimatly nourished me the most....

sometimes my owner was a part of this dialog and most times it was just me resetting my compass, and course correcting on my own.

i am going to guess that with you long history of serving you wont be hitting too many unforseen potholes, so when you do hit one, its going to be transformational....even trancendant.

and that is a great thing, you will get stronger in yourself, and in your service, and as such you will be a more valuable asset to him, because you have chosen your service each time as opposed to robotically obeyed a command.

_____________________________

Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."

(in reply to Fawne)

Post #: 11

RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/10/2007 10:51:14 AM

Fitznicely

Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/18/2006
Status: offline

I don't demand total obedience. Maybe I'm weird.

Respect, honesty, openness I expect, but 100% obedience I find just slightly boring.

I understand everyone's different and I suspect that for more than a few subs that point of total obedience is a goal to be aimed for and good luck to you. For me, personally, I like a bit of stubbornness and resistance.

_____________________________

I tell you this: No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn
Proud Owner of Darkmoonkat. Such a good girl!

(in reply to mirkala)

Post #: 12

RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/10/2007 11:05:00 AM

mbes

Posts: 465
Joined: 12/14/2006
Status: offline

I find sometimes I stall or resist, although there are less of those moments as time passes.
My nature and my past both lead me to "question everything". "Stay in control (of myself)", however flawed I am at it, is my way.
Which is quite a pain, when the other half of my nature wants very much to trust and let go!
I'm slowly learning to trust, and to act, without thinking of all the little things that I, of course, know better. I don't know if I will ever be perfect at it, or even if that is what he expects, really. But recently, I've noticed a shift in my perceptions, and in my belief that I really CAN trust the one I'm with, and it's incredibly freeing.
If your issues stem from any of the same, I hope that you come to that "shift" as well.

(in reply to Fitznicely)

Post #: 13

RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/10/2007 12:03:22 PM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline

Depends on how long the relationship has been established, how much trust has been built up, and how well the dominant has shown himself to be a leader with forethought.

I've disobeyed orders with no consequences because of info he was lacking. Back when we were ldr he sent me an early email with clothes choice for the day. What he didn't know is that I was chaperoning a school hiking trip and high heels and garter belt were certainly inappropriate.

I've also stopped him dead in his tracks when he was about to tell me how to handle a school problem my oldest had. My problem and not his, he was welcome to offer advice but he doesn't have control over my family.

As far as sassiness and spirit and humor go, some like it and others don't. I don't do well with people who can't talk playfulness in an appropriate context. Who feel any attempt to give them info they lack is the dreaded 'topping from the bottom'. Basically men who are insecure in themselves.

(in reply to mbes)

Post #: 14

RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/10/2007 12:42:16 PM

Sirandlittle1

Posts: 538
Joined: 12/22/2005
Status: offline

i stall or as someone put it, mentally trip myself up. Ive also had a period, where i seriously doubted that i was wanting to continue submitting at all as i felt too exhausted. On that occasion, turned out, i was actually rather ill, with my endocrine system packing up causing my tiredness. And needed medical intervention.

Last weekend, we went out to a dance club. Im 42, the club was filled with youngsters 18 - 20yrs average. My Sir ordered that i dance. The dance floor was empty except two young grils. Instead of obeying, i begged to not have to. I didnt want to 'expose' my elderly status which was really bothering me at the time. The thought of doing what was requested filled me with embarrassment, humiliation. I refused. I got into a shit load of trouble.

I would consider neither of these particular examples of my lack of submission as brattiness, but maybe im wrong. Neither was it lack of trust. But both were lack of obedience. Both examples needed some communcation over. I guess you would consider the latter example insecurity though.

My Sir is my life partner. Its a long term relationship. There are times, when he's been incapable of dominating, times when i have been incapable of submitting. But you get that, when you live day in, day out, year in, year out with someone. We are a D/s couple composed of two humans, with faults, who spaz out occasionally. Sometimes, we cock up. Both of us. He's not arrogant enough to assume that when the dynamic is not working smoothly, that it ALWAYS my fault. Sometimes, it is his. We work through such times.

Were i with a partner who demanded total obedience, it would last, oh, as long as it took me to walk out the door. I just dont have that drone head. And he has no desire to have a drone as a partner. He wants a friend, a intellectual equal, a mother to my children, a capable of standing alone and functioning female, the successful career woman. But each to their own.

littleone

(in reply to Celeste43)

Post #: 15

RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/10/2007 2:08:23 PM

amuzingtoyou

Posts: 144
Joined: 6/27/2006
Status: offline

Not all submissives are the same. Not all submissives are slaves and follow orders immediately. One thing that is important to remember is that we are all people first. We come into this with our own ideal and beliefs. I think what is important is to find a partner who undestands the kind of submissive that you are and is willing to work with you to overcome issues you may have. I am never defiant on purpose. However there are times that i hesitate, or have issues with a paticular want of my Master. Does that mean i don't want to serve him? No, it means i am having an inner struggle within myself. Doing what i feel is right as opposed to his wishes, but it is never a contest or my trying to manipulate the situation. It is more an inner struggle. Submission does not always come easy. We have become a very self centered society. For a new sub who is just beginning to explore that realm, i would think that this struggle would come often. My suggestion would be, as i say in everything, communicate your struggles with your Master. Explain to him (or her) what it is you are feeling. Allow them to help guide you to a place of understanding. I also don't think that its a bad thing to ask questions. If you are being asked something that you feel strongly opposed to, i would hope that your Master would be open to your asking questions about it so that you understand. I don't go along with the "because i am Master and i say so" mentality. Submissives are after all..people with our own wants, desires, and feelings.
missi

(in reply to patina)

Post #: 16

RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/10/2007 2:13:53 PM

bandit25

Posts: 3029
Joined: 6/18/2005
Status: offline

I don't see anything wrong with hesitating occasionally either. Obviously, if you hesitate, something isn't quite right. Nothing wrong with asking for clarification or whatever.

(in reply to patina)

Post #: 17

RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/10/2007 4:15:17 PM

gypsygrl

Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline

I don't think disobedience is necessarily a contest or test of wills. I can only speak for myself here, and I think the answer is going to vary for everyone, but if I'm not following an order it probably has nothing to do with the person giving it, but with something going on inside me, either the order triggered a fear, came up against an unconscious limit, simply baffled me or something else entirely. There have been times where my behavior has been interpreted as "testing" and the results haven't been good because it cut short any possibility of discussing what was happening by prefiguring the explanation which made me feel like a kid. And, rightly or wrongly, I started to act like a kid.

(in reply to patina)

Post #: 18

RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/12/2007 8:59:46 AM

patina

Posts: 493
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: no
Status: offline

Thank you, that feels more like what i am feeling, as I am reading and learning and fighting within myself over how i should act but don't want too. Those sites i put up give a lot of ** I should behave this way do thing like this. Some are very structured and strict.** I know each situation and relationship is different but this helps me with some guidelines to use. I am still waiting on my book the Loving Dominante, Safe Sane, Consenual, and Fun to come in. Thank you all for your help

patina

_____________________________

a diamond in the rough

(in reply to desertdancer)

Post #: 19

RE: sub refusal is it testing or just insecurity - 1/12/2007 9:12:50 AM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

I have given orders that I would be pissed if a submissive followed them. If I tell someone to eat peanuts and they don't tell me they are allergic, bad things will happen if they obey me.

Almost everything in S&M boils down to motivation, the WHY of something. WHY are you not obeying? Answer that and everything else will be clear.

Learn to develop an inner observer, a little voice that is emotionally detached and sits in your brain watching what is going on. "Gee Sally, you are really reacting to this order, why?" "mhh, don't I recall your mother speaking to you that way when she was about to haul off and belt you? " Okay, now you know why this order gets a negative reaction!

Now this skill doesn't come overnight, nor does obedience and compliance. Hell, I get off on ordering things that are difficult and I would be dissapointed if everything I ordered happened without some inner struggle and turmoil.

The flip side of all of this is teaching a dominant how to react to your refusal. It is a skill to know when to haul off and wack a submissive's ass or to stop and order them to kneel at you feet and play with their hair when they refuse an order.

(in reply to patina)

Post #: 20

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