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The 'community' - 1/9/2007 11:16:24 AM   
Jasmyn


Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
Status: offline
quote:

This can unfortunately happen.  But trust me, there's a reason this top goes after the newbies- because everyone else by that point has made up their mind about him.

Sure, the top sucks.  But hello, so does this little bottom we're talking about.  She made SO many mistakes and bad choices herself which she needs to take responsibility for. 

 
quote:

because everyone else by that point has made up their mind about him.
 
Inspired by LA's comments in an ask a submissive thread I find the above a distrubing but all to common issue of community groups and/or community play spaces that's actually bugged me for ages.  If everyone else has made their mind up about someone that the only people they have left to play with are newbies does the person keep getting an invite?  Why are they not told they are not welcome?  Why are the 'newbies' playing with them?  Like who isn't telling the new to the group players the chick's a loser or he's a twat and none of us can be bothered with them?  Is it that it's better the person be somewhere where they can be monitored?  Or is it people are by and large weak when running clubs?  Those who have run clubs. how often have you told people they are no longer welcome in your play space? 
 
Recently in New Zealand we held a BDSM conference, a fabulous time was had by all ... one of the seminars hosted was called 'Growing Pains' and was largely attended by people who have been involved in the public scene here since it's inception in 1998 ...we talked about the history of B&D in NZ as we knew it prior to an organised scene (ie public scene) happening, how far we have come and thinking about our direction ... one of the big questions was what responsibility do we, those who put ourselves out there as 'community leaders', have to the people who look on us as such ...and just how far does our responsibility reach and such like. 
 
One issue raised was 'predators' and how to keep those vulnerable safe from them ... issues of individual responsibility a given etc .. I couldn't help but ask the question ... what about the harbouring of predators ... or those known to be a concern ... who despite a collective concern ... they still remain a part of the groups ... still able to avail themselves of group resources ... still able to claim some legitimacy because of their involvement in a local group. 
 
It's said on here often to people looking to get involved in BDSM, get in touch with your local munch group, get out there and meet likeminded others ..etc, etc ...
 
I guess, I think what I'm wanting to know with this thread is ...your idea of 'community' ...what is it to you?  And, as a participant, what responsibility do you think your 'local community' has to you?

_____________________________

quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.


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RE: The 'community' - 1/9/2007 11:28:27 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Where I live I have not seen any evidence of a "community" in a BDSM sense. Given the occasional male dom that emails me from the area I seriously doubt I would want to be a part of any community they were involved in.

However, if there was such, and I was a part of it, I would definately feel a strong sense of responsibility and, knowing me, be very vocal and active about promoting that responsibility.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Jasmyn)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: The 'community' - 1/9/2007 11:35:39 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		The topic of how, or if we even should, police our community comes up on a fairly regular basis. I think the most viable solution I've heard to date is to simply allow each group to set up their own standards. If a group wants to verify names and addresses with a background check, not allow anyone who has lied about their marital status on the application and those who play with the wrong kind of edge play, then they're allowed to do that (be prepared that it'll be a VERY small group). But, most groups simply require that the DMs be obeyed and that dues be paid. Other than that, people are free to be who they are, assholes or not.

There is one advantage to having the not-so-good people in the group...you can keep better tabs on their behavior that way. Granted, a predator watched in slightly better than a predator in the night, but, you could take it on yourself to "warn" those interested in him. I dunno...it's a slippery slope...one you have to carefully watch before it becomes legislating morality.

Master Fire




_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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(in reply to Jasmyn)
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RE: The 'community' - 1/9/2007 11:37:22 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Where I live I have not seen any evidence of a "community" in a BDSM sense. Given the occasional male dom that emails me from the area I seriously doubt I would want to be a part of any community they were involved in.

However, if there was such, and I was a part of it, I would definately feel a strong sense of responsibility and, knowing me, be very vocal and active about promoting that responsibility.



Slightly off topic....please keep in mind that the occassional MD that emails you might NOT be an accurate representation of the average MD in your area. He's only representing himself as an asshole.

And, there may not be a community simply because no one has started one.

Master Fire


_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: The 'community' - 1/9/2007 11:39:40 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		More often than not I've seen the opposite side of the argument, screams and hollars about someone being "UNSAFE" when the real meaning is that the people calling them that are not personally skilled enough to pull off the scene, but that doesn't mean that the person doing it is being unsafe.

Case in point in 1995-1997 I would have sworn that there was no way anybody could play with a bullwhip in a manner that was safe.
Over time that judgement has adjusted, LOL Both things adjusted my knowledge of the bullwhip and my knowledge of what "Safe" means.

As for community I certainly make my judgements of people in the community but having been on the recieveing side of "That Dominant is abussive to his slave" accusations spread around the local web groups, based on the fact that I enjoy a form of play that they did not undestand nor appreciate, I don't any longer accept accusations of unsafe based on someone elses judgement unless I really know what their judgement is based on.

Ball up a fist and punch a female slave in most dungeons and you'll hear the same OMG he's abusing her, posts the next day, if they wait that long, I've walked away from my girl and had the busy bodies swarm in asking Elegant if she's OK seconds later, while she's still cleaning the station. So rather than take accusations at face value I tend to take a look at them through the lens of OK I've heard one side of the story what do I know to be fact and what do I suspet is slanted opinion about what really happened.

I can tell you that many veteran players stopped comming to public spaces because of the exact same thing that I discribed here monday morning armchair dominants sending out "Warnings" about them when th person in question taught half the community how to do basic SM 15 years ago before the armchair self appointed safety monitor for the community even jacked off to their first SM thought.

Sorry getting a bit heated here so I'll take a break for the moment.

In Leather

Archer

(in reply to Jasmyn)
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RE: The 'community' - 1/9/2007 11:42:50 AM   
demistress


Posts: 391
Joined: 4/24/2006
From: Dela-where?
Status: offline 		Sorry slightly different aspect of the same topic.......

This is a hard issue for me, I personally tend to have leadership qualities, and find myself taking the stance of "don't complain about it, fix it".  I won't bitch about something unless I'm willing to actively try to change it.  That being said, I'm not sure I'm ready (or even a good representative of the culture) to be a public figure for BDSM/SWING/KINK/GAY and all the other alternative lifestyles I feel the need to champion.  I am also not ready to expose my family and friends to that level of ridicule and scrutiny arbitrarily.  How do we balance our activism and responsibility to the 'community' with our personal responsibilities to our friends and family.  The unfortunate reality is our choices can sometimes bring danger and threats to our family and friends.  Physical harm, career harm, political harm, etc. 

Regularly I deal with clients who are public figures, in politics, military, law enforcement, and even religion, and the reason they come to me is the level of trust they feel they can place in me to protect their identities and keep their secrets.  If I were to 'go public' I would have to stop providing services to them because where I live I would become a pariah, and neighbors would be taking down plates of anyone seen entering my house, etc.   I would also lose my "vanilla" home based web design business clientele because those clients would be uncomfortable being seen with me for fear of it being assumed they were one of "us".

< Message edited by demistress -- 1/9/2007 11:43:48 AM >

_____________________________

Mistress Heather
www.niteflirt.com/MizzSpice

Wether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right!

(in reply to LaTigresse)
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RE: The 'community' - 1/9/2007 12:03:27 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline 		I've had to deal with this issue in a few of the groups I've been part of and have been part of the leadership of. Usually people haven't come to me about things that happen in private or at a public play party. However we have had people complain about creepiness and inappropriateness of others at workshop, munches or after these events.

In all of those cases what we did was a bit complex and it took time because we felt we had a responsiblity to the entire group to move cautious and carefully.

First, the person who was complaining was listened to and if she/he felt uncomfortable at events or walking to and from cars, we arranged for one of the leaders (or more) to be with her/him.

Second, we started paying even further attention to things ourselves. We also started making general inquiries about whether or not folks felt safe coming to events or at events -- we did this one-on-one never via a group announcement.

Usually a predator has tried his/her technique out on a few folks before one approaches any leader of a group. Once you make inquiries you find others. We listened to their stories and when we found common information we contacted the person in question.

The leaders would talk with the person, sometimes explaining their inappropriate behavior and once just banning them from the group because the complaint were rather frightening and unacceptable to every member of the committee that ran that group.

Now at a play party it has never occurred to me to go to a DM and complain about someone else... a good DM at an event that has enough DM will be circulating or stationed where she/he can see things and they should always inquire if there is a quesiton of safety. Having been a DM a few times I can say that most things you think look off aren't when you get closer and listen in a bit and that most people you approach if you still aren't sure at least don't show they are angered by the question -- they must want an environment with DMs or they could stay home and scene.

The people who get mad (in my experience only) tend to be those who are playing unsafely. I've seen folks when I've DMed who were so drunk they could barely stand let alone do a scene -- that such a thing could even happen at a public party is one of the reasons we stopped going to local things.

I have no idea why someone would run to a DM when it wasn't their scene or they didn't hear a safeword or stopword being used. I guess those folks just don't have a much of a life so they feel the need to muck around with others.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Jasmyn)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: The 'community' - 1/9/2007 12:11:46 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		As much as it bothers me to need to do it I have taken to telling the DM's "Hey I play rough and some folks might get squicked so just so you already know I'll be doing a really heavy scene involving XYZ." I usually also wait until the party has already started to thin out a bit before I start. But at least that way they don't get blind sided by complaints/ notifications.


(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: The 'community' - 1/9/2007 12:13:46 PM   
NJKinksters


Posts: 6
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Right On Archer! God I am so tired of hearing  people try and make a "name" for themselves at the expense of others. Most of what I have seen " community wise" is all about ego and self assertion. People get a " bad name" when others misunderstand a scene or just wanna be known as " someone who has the right to criticize". I DM in a NYC dungeon, and while I've wanted to stop the odd scene out of boredom (grin), I have never seen anyone be " unsafe". I have occasionally interjected with small things I'd like them to do just to set my mind as ease, but frankly, few do anything that damn risky. A lot of the SSC flagwavers are just attempting to show how " educated" they are. Hell I never HEARD the damn term SSC until I got on the internet. Another term bred from the "Immona git me a screen name and see me sum bare nekkid titty" based BDSM crowd. Im sorry but the only REAL rule of BDSM is " don't be an asshole"

(in reply to demistress)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: The 'community' - 1/9/2007 12:30:59 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Well SSC came from the RT community back in 1983 with the GMSMA New York. Attributed to slave david stien fairly well known acivist member of GMSMA and still writting today. But what has been done to his idea makes him shake his head as he has written on more than one occassion.

Source: http://www.albanypowerexchange.com/History/ssc.htm




(in reply to NJKinksters)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: The 'community' - 1/9/2007 1:40:40 PM   
Jasmyn


Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		Thanks for the responses so far, much appreciated...Tammyjo your post pretty much echoes my own experiences and how I approached complaints and concerns when I was running a BDSM support group and the inclusion or exclusion of people who were a concern.  I guess thats the crux of the issue...as opposed to Archer's (succinctly put I'll add)  'monday morning armchair' critics who cry 'unsafe' just because they can... gawd knows I've had a few of my own to contend with ...but dealing with those who are indeed a threat to the safety of a group and what to do about them.  Case in point, we had a young man associate himself with a local group, he became quite the good friend to many, so by the time his m.o. was realised, friendships had being formed with group leaders and he had become quite a 'well known' figure, and as such was by association with the group leaders considered a 'respected' member.  When concern grew about him, and with proof that his behaviour was a very real threat to the group as an entity itself, it still took the group leaders sometime to do anything about him confronting him and suggesting it best he stay away, preferring to bury their heads and pretend he was 'ok'.
 
I guess here I should add some clarity ... when I talk about the 'safety of a group' ...I am talking about what each group creates and puts out there... most would agree that by and large BDSM groups, munch groups etc are welcoming with open arms to newcomers ... their interest in BDSM/Fetish enough to merit inclusion... but over the years I have done a complete u-turn on this all inclusive approach ... if you want to partake of the resources myself and others have created ... then the groups need to get serious about protecting what they have created.. .. I realise this might be sounding more of a rant than offering any constructive suggestions ...but hmm it is something I'm feeling passionate about ... and LA's comment in that thread, quoted above ... really did hit home for me why I have such concerns ... so yeah, the question again ... if the person is shunned by others in the group for their style or m.o. or whatever ..why do people think they aren't asked to leave?   Are we too nice? Can we afford to be too nice?

_____________________________

quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.


Visit My Website


(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: The 'community' - 1/9/2007 1:46:49 PM   
Jasmyn


Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		NJKinksters ... it was boredom too that I became disinterested in public play parties ... but I have a yearning to get back out there and strutt my stuff ... and I want to play hard...no more garden variety B&D watered down for the masses ...I guess that could be where some of my frustration is coming from ... I want to get involved in the public scene again ...but I don't feel secure that those putting themselves out there as community leaders have the balls to take responsibility for people they allow in their midst ...

_____________________________

quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.


Visit My Website


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Profile   Post #: 12
RE: The 'community' - 1/9/2007 4:50:54 PM   
onestandingstill


Posts: 1335
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline











It indeed is prevalent here in the DC area that know predators are in our midst and no one in an authority position gives a rats ass.
Not to mention names but a HUGE community here has 3 of those very predators on their board of directors even.
2 of the three Doms have been arrested for being pedophiles even on top of the rumors they use their position to threaten the newbies by telling them if they don't just take it he'll spread rumors about them people will believe or he'll lie to get them kicked out of the community.

I often see these predators in the positions of authority and they stick together.
When one of the board members of the group was arrested for raping a 14yr old several of us in the community voiced the opinion of he should if not be kicked out completely at least relieved of his position on the board.
The answer we got was till convicted it's just hearsay.
Well I've heard first hand accounts about this predator from about ten subs myself so it's not like they don't know he's a bad seed.
What's a decent offended person to do?
Should they become vigilantes and take things into their own hands?

My own story of no support in the community happened to my daughter.
When I found BDSMalmost 2 years ago now my daughter was 21.
I told her of this new side of me I found.
She got curious and came with me to a couple of socials and presentations just to see what types of people are into this scene.
She met a 55 year old professional photographer that come to the under 30 socials all the time.
She's always been into photography so she worked a deal to go to his home with her boyfriend to let him do wax and bondage supposedly for a book he was working on.
Se specifically said she was not into this lifestyle and as long as there was no sensual or sexual contact she's model for him naked if he'd teach her more about setting the lighting for desired effects.
Long story short, she's more of a follower than a leader and in the end he was behind her while she dripped wax on her blindfolded boyfriend and took his hands and grabbed her hips and penetrated her and wouldn't;t let go till my kid's boyfriend hearing her distressful reaction pulled off his blindfold.
Even then he claimed he did not penetrate her without a condom on, it was his fingers.
She's sure his right hand was on her right hip and his left hand was on her left hip and he raped her.
Being she's so grounded she didn't want my Dom at the time to go stomp him, she didn't want her friends to stomp him, and all she wanted was to go to the group and get him banned from their munches and presentations so he couldn't keep doing this to others.
We did talk to 3 board members who said the same thing s the group involved did.
Unless he's criminally convicted they would not do anything.
He still hunts for young new girls the under 30 crowd socials and is still getting away with non-consensual situations.

On one hand yes, innocent till proven guilty needs to apply as if not lots would be black balled due to rumors and innuendo that's not true.
On the other hand if 300 people have been or know someone this person preyed on then that's enough proof for me.

It's the legal loop hole catch 22 stuff that prevents the community from getting the preditors out.
suzanne




(in reply to Jasmyn)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: The 'community' - 1/9/2007 5:05:03 PM   
ScooterTrash


Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline 		I regret, that the term "community" seems to have taken on it's own identity, encompassing everyone in the BDSM lifestyle. Too bad we didn't install a flush handle on it when it was being put together, might be handy to flush out some of the waste occasionally. But...as with any community, you can't pick who moves in, who stays, or who goes...you just sort of live there.

_____________________________

Formal symbolic representation of qualitative entities is doomed to its rightful place of minor significance in a world where flowers and beautiful women abound.
-Albert Einstein

(in reply to Jasmyn)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: The 'community' - 1/9/2007 5:53:52 PM   
SweetSarijane


Posts: 3788
Joined: 10/7/2005
From: KC area Missouri
Status: offline 		This thread hit me hard. Right now many of us are upset due to a well known predator in our local kink community having raped a new sub last week. This is, as I understand, now the 4th known time he's done this and one of his previous victims ended up in the hospital because of his attack on her. Another of his former victims is a friend of mine.

He chooses his victims carefully going after those who have a lot to lose if they report and prosecute him for it and definitely the newbies are a favored target for him as well. There are only 2 local groups who still let him come to their events and he has profiles on adult sites including one here and after news of the latest attack came out, several women commented on having been contacted by him and the red flags that flew up and caused them to sever further contact with him. They are horrified at how close they came to possibly being a victim and very angry and upset on behalf of the one who did become his latest victim.

There was another in the community like him awhile back who was finally totally banned, but not before he'd done a lot of damage.

I can see the worry in unjustly accusing and blacklisting someone and you have to be careful of that, but to let a known predator continue to be involved and enabled to easier have access to victims is just as wrong in my opinion.

_____________________________

Sarah2
Deviant Mind
Wild Side Readers KCSass

(in reply to ScooterTrash)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: The 'community' - 1/9/2007 7:51:57 PM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		My sub and I decided to join a local BDSM group here in the MD/DC/VA area, they are very well known. I sent in the application and the fee and waited.....and waited....I emailed a couple different contacts from their website regarding our application. I heard from one of them in early November stating they had no one to pick up the mail, but he would see to it that it would be taken care of. To date I have recieved nothing and I've emailed that gentlemen inquiring as to what was going on with our application. I've gotten no response. To my way of thinking if this is how they run their group, I maybe better off not joining because their lack of organization really hasn't impressed me.

It's a shame because I was really looking forward to meeting others and taking some of the classes that they offer.

~Lashra


_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”






(in reply to SweetSarijane)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: The 'community' - 1/9/2007 8:07:37 PM   
prettililsub


Posts: 3
Joined: 12/3/2004
Status: offline 		Wow an amazing number of predotors stalk the different communities it seems. We play mostly with a private group that screans new people fairly carefully. We have in the group some people who are only D/s with little to no SM in there lives to people who do some incredable edge play. The common thread that holds us all together is the desire for a safe place to play without being judged.

We do occasionaly go to the local BDSM clubs and find them to be "watered down" to a large entent but suspect that is because the people in it as not well aquainted with each other so are VERY carefull to not offend other people ideas of what is right or wrong.

(in reply to Lashra)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: The 'community' - 1/9/2007 8:07:41 PM   
simplyangelic1


Posts: 186
Joined: 6/14/2006
Status: offline 		In the group that I belong to, there are two Masters who I've watched play, both scare the hell out of me because their form of play is too intense for me.  Now does this mean they are abusive or wrong in what they do, No...because I recongnize that while I'm not at their level, their slaves are and they enjoy that level of entense play.  However if one of them should go to the DM and say I'm being abused, that is another ball game in itself.  Policing of a group if done should be based on facts and not on personal preferences. 

Let me just add that in general, what we do in the lifestyle would be considered abuse by law enforcement.

< Message edited by simplyangelic1 -- 1/9/2007 8:10:35 PM >

(in reply to Lashra)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: The 'community' - 1/9/2007 9:21:33 PM   
aSlavesLife


Posts: 347
Joined: 12/1/2006
Status: offline 		I find it remarkable that on an older thread people were saying what a great source of references the local communities were. I mentioned on that thread that my slave had trouble with her local groups because of busybodies interfering, and had people imply that this was a lie. And yet here we are on another thread, and people are now admitting that groups sometimes present biases that do not reflect reality, and mentioning that there are indeed busybodies at groups that will try to inject their will onto the play of others. How nice it would have been to have seen some of the people here presenting these experiences on that thread instead of taking the opposite position.

(in reply to simplyangelic1)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: The 'community' - 1/9/2007 9:29:44 PM   
NJKinksters


Posts: 6
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		I think we all agree there is a difference between play that might be deemed " edge" and out and out abusive people. It is truly a slippery slope to start finger pointing at any individual without some solid evidence and, it is necessary to allow that person to defend their reputation. That being said, organizations need to decide for themselves what they will and will not condone under their umbrella. People are responsible for  their own actions and the consequences of them. Is it fair to assume just because a group of people get together to mingle like minded individuals they are also responsible for the moral code of those who choose to join in? There are bad apples in all walks of life, and while I am in NO way putting the blame on victims, I know I have seen an awful lot of  rushing in and abandoning common sense in the thrall of passion. Now if you take advantage of that sort of situation, yes Virginia you are an abusive shithead. But I should really like to see organizations, should they decide to form, also decide to encourage good common sense. OH and as an aside about watered down play, I so get that, it was why we started our place, however, at least in NYC, it is mostly because the law makes it almost impossible to run a BDSM club without prohibiting all manner of fun nasty things. The only way around it is to be a " private party" and there are VERY specific steps you must take to be regarded as such legally.Even then , should the police come to your door and hear a scream they are allowed to enter, you cannot demand a warrant or prohibit them from entering. Damn it's tough to be kinky!

(in reply to simplyangelic1)
Profile   Post #: 20
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