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and everything to do with protecting their assets and their current employees. Does it go too far? I tend to think so, yes.

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Tell me, how is someone supposed to stay OUT of trouble under these circumstances?  When does the person STOP paying for something they did wrong?  It certainly isn't when he's square with the prison system.  That is the last of my somewhat off topic rant - my apologies to the OP.

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If you aren't working up to standard they should get rid of you for just that, not working up to standard.

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ORIGINAL: farglebargle

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and everything to do with protecting their assets and their current employees. Does it go too far? I tend to think so, yes.

The next obvious question: Does it protect their assets and employees?

I don't think so, no.

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65% of accidents on the job are caused by substance abuse (O.S.H.A.) and employees that abuse drugs file 6 times more worker’s compensation claims. (Occupational Health & Safety Magazine)

Based on this, I would say you may not think so, but you would be wrong.

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Hmm I would insist on drug testing for legislators because drugs can be the only reason for some of the laws the enact.

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ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
On the brink of adulthood I used to, and still do, tell my underlings to "project out" the consequences of their actions. Whether that action is getting behind the wheel after drinking, drugs, or any illegal activities. Sometimes the folly of youth isn't just the feeling of indestructibility, but the misplaced belief that there actions don't have consequence. I'd attribute this to a school system that plays to the lowest common denominator and who accepts and congratulates the effort and intent of an "almost correct" answer of 3 to the question; "what is 2+2". How can we expect youth to respect that there are laws and right answers if we train them at an early age that law is arbitrary and an actions "intent" is more critical than its consequence? When all of a sudden they get into a situation where there is a life changing reaction to their action it is a difficult concept for them.

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ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
People on the public dole should meet the same requirements as the people funding the dole. Especially those people in the same basic economic situation. It creates a disincentive to try. If the condition can be exposed through pointing out the dichotomy it should. Ultimately is also addresses the futility of a failed drug prohibition program.

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ORIGINAL: MizSuz

I think it could probably be argued that pre-employment drug screening is an invasion of medical privacy. 
Urine testing is as much a waste of resources as the war on drugs, irrespective of social and economic situations. 

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As for those on the dole - I have to say that the system only gives lip service to the notion of helping people get on their feet. 

I have long maintained that all bureaucracies, whose original intentions are altruistic, which are staffed with people who are dependent on the perpetuity of said bureaucracy for their own living, will inevitably feed off the people they were formed to help.  I whole heartedly believe that our welfare system is a glaring example of same.

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ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

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As for those on the dole - I have to say that the system only gives lip service to the notion of helping people get on their feet.

I have long maintained that all bureaucracies, whose original intentions are altruistic, which are staffed with people who are dependent on the perpetuity of said bureaucracy for their own living, will inevitably feed off the people they were formed to help. I whole heartedly believe that our welfare system is a glaring example of same.

Miz Suz,
We are in total agreement.

Your quoted section above should be memorized and considered as the "why" answer for every question regarding the failure of all government programs. It is counterproductive for any bureaucrat to succeed. If the problem the bureaucracy was established to solve is solved the bureaucrat has no job. This philosophy extends from the lowest clerk to the highest ranking political appointment. It is a shame that more people don't realize this.

On your other issue of litigation. Is it a surprise that the vast majority of our politicians passing these laws and implementing these programs are in fact themselves lawyers? Their collective goal is to propagate the species. Law and justice are just buzzwords for them and do not influence their actions or activities.

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ORIGINAL: kisshou

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ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
It also makes sense from a "fairness" perspective. If a person making $10 / hour needs to pee in a cup to qualify to work why shouldn't a person collecting money from that person's taxes be subject to the same scrutiny?

because if we denied benefits to the scum who take advantage of the tax payers by drinking and doing drugs instead of getting a job , the ones who would really suffer are their children. The children are innocent of the wrong doing and would be the ones being punished even worse than they are by having the parents they do.

There is a man who says 'I am alcoholic and working for someone else causes me anxiety'. So his family gets food stamps and his 1 year old is on full medicaid. At least she will get fed sometimes and have medical care if she gets sick (the 1 year old) even though he sits home everyday and gets drunk.

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ORIGINAL: ElectraGlide

I agree with Mercenbeth, if someone wants welfare they should pass a drug test to get it. I do not want my taxdollars going to someone holed up in a section 8 house with a bunch of other unemployed drug users.

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ORIGINAL: farglebargle

" Drug testing is yet another example of good "intent" ",

I disagree, it's a coercive attempt to deny people the full range of choices they have regarding their selves and actions.  Agree or not, we have laws against people making these and other choices

Free people have an absolute right to do with their selves what they choose.  Do they have the right to start a bussiness and drug test employees with thier bodies?

There's nothing good about telling a FREE PERSON what they may or may not do with their body.  use their body to murder others?  Use thier body to pollutue?
People who cannot freely choose what they will do with their own selves are called "Slaves".  would that not also apply to the bussiness owner you are telling what he can nad cannot  do with his body?

What do you say about a Government or Artificial Legal Entity created by that Government which treats The People like Slaves and denies them control (any controll?, this would imply that everysingle law is invalid and makes you a slave) over their own selves? Well for starters, it'll torture prisoners, won't it? No having laws does not require torture(unless you define torture so openly that it has no meaning).

Is that government in line with the principles of the Declaration of Independence?  Such a biased question no answer is needed.


First I do smoke pot, and have lost a job at a ski resort when younger because of a failed test.  I took the self employed route, after that.   I do understand that insurance for a ski resort is very expensive due to inherent danger, and they do what ever they can to minimize thier risk.  If a lifty or cook burts someone, the company can be sued, if the person is high, the company can be ruined.  I like having the ski restort there and operating.  They can counter sue the employee, but what can you get from a cook or lifty.  Remove the liability for the comapny for the workers actions and you might get less drug testing, but I doubt you want that.  All the managers were drug tested.  Drugs should be legal, and companies should be allowed to test for them if they want. 

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ORIGINAL: luckydog1

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ORIGINAL: farglebargle

" Drug testing is yet another example of good "intent" ",

I disagree, it's a coercive attempt to deny people the full range of choices they have regarding their selves and actions. Agree or not, we have laws against people making these and other choices

And the tolerance of those laws explains why we have torture, secret prisons, and complete domestic surveillance of all long distance and internet traffic.

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Free people have an absolute right to do with their selves what they choose.

Do they have the right to start a bussiness and drug test employees with thier bodies?

Knock yourself out. Without government subsidies, it wouldn't be worth the investment though.

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There's nothing good about telling a FREE PERSON what they may or may not do with their body. use their body to murder others? Use thier body to pollutue?

Yes, it's called FREE WILL. You're also free to experience the consequences of your choices.

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People who cannot freely choose what they will do with their own selves are called "Slaves".

would that not also apply to the bussiness owner you are telling what he can nad cannot do with his body?


I'm not telling a business owner anything. Methinks you're responding not to what I've said, but to your own spin.

Without government subsidies, ( OUR TAX DOLLARS ) drug testing wouldn't be worth investing in, and I'm not seeing in the Constitution where it's delegated to the Federal Government, so it's not really their duty, is it?

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What do you say about a Government or Artificial Legal Entity created by that Government which treats The People like Slaves and denies them control (any controll?, this would imply that everysingle law is invalid and makes you a slave)

That's absurd. Just obey the Constitution and there's no problems.

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First I do smoke pot, and have lost a job at a ski resort when younger because of a failed test. I took the self employed route, after that. I do understand that insurance for a ski resort is very expensive due to inherent danger, and they do what ever they can to minimize thier risk. If a lifty or cook burts someone, the company can be sued, if the person is high, the company can be ruined.

Which is a problem with the courts, and assigning liability. As long as people buy into the propaganda, they won't ever reform the things that are actually wrong.

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" I like having the ski restort there and operating.

Buy it when it's being liquidated after the lawsuit! ;)

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Remove the liability for the comapny for the workers actions and you might get less drug testing.

How about just testing incident to an accident?


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to luckydog1)

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farglebargle
"  respect for peoples rights to do with their bodies WHATEVER THEY CHOSE TO, you wouldn't have any financial incentive in the drug trade ( well, exactly as much as in the cigarette, beer and booze trade ), nor any of the grief associated with unlawful drug possession and sale.

Of course, the damage done to society by drugs PALES in comparison to that done by alcohol and tobacco. I don't see you demanding section 8 recipients be tested for cigarette use...
That seems quite hypocritical, doesn't it?

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< go sit down, bad fawne>
Thank you, all