Drug Testing (Full Version)

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Mercnbeth -> Drug Testing (1/8/2007 4:09:09 PM)

Too much war and religion discussion. Allow me to open another potential can of worms.

While shopping recently at one of the national major chains I notices a sign posted soliciting employees. There was some fine print in the ad saying that this company required a clean pre-employment drug test and had periodic "random" testing. I know that drug testing has been in effect for some years for some businesses. It seems to now be expanding to jobs approaching or at "minimum wage". But the subject/question isn't employee drug testing.

A large percentage of the tax dollars generated from these workers goes to fund various social welfare programs ranging from food stamps to subsidized housing. What if the same drug test was required in order to receive any government welfare. To be fair we can include the executives and board members of corporations receiving any government funds.

It sounds like a good program in the "war on drugs". It also makes sense from a "fairness" perspective. If a person making $10 / hour needs to pee in a cup to qualify to work why shouldn't a person collecting money from that person's taxes be subject to the same scrutiny?

As a corollary question, I wonder how many low income or unemployed people feel trapped in their position due to the knowledge that they would fail a drug test?



Zensee -> RE: Drug Testing (1/8/2007 4:31:12 PM)

Equality in this case is the same as equality under the law. How much justice can you afford to buy? CEO's can afford the most expensive and cutting edge masking technologies, Wally Mart cart chasers cannot.

This is more about keeping the fear-o-stat turned up nice and toasty - keep them sweating, extend control to 24/7 and invade personal space and time. If it isn't the terrywrists or the illegals it's the CUP!

Sure boss, I'll piss in that cup, if you'll balance it on your head while I do.

Z.



Chaingang -> RE: Drug Testing (1/8/2007 4:34:24 PM)

Well, drugs should not be that important in anyone's life for other than a medical reason. That said, I think most drugs should be legalized. I am no supporter of drug testing in any cases not involving the use of heavy machinery or large presses.

But I would also agree, that if we are going to test one person - everyone should be tested. But testing should also include alcohol and tobacco, and not be some bullshit prejudiced test against alternative drugs. Abuse is abuse is abuse.

I would personally pass any such test, and I bet our U.S. president wouldn't. Just a hunch...



Mercnbeth -> RE: Drug Testing (1/8/2007 4:40:50 PM)

quote:

Well, drugs should not be that important in anyone's life for other than a medical reason. That said, I think most drugs should be legalized. I am no supporter of drug testing in any cases not involving the use of heavy machinery or large presses.


Chain,
Agree!

However, in the current world I think it is a bit over the top to need to qualify a $10/hr shipping clerk. Worse though is having that $10/hr shipping clerks money given to someone not working and free, without testing, to use "illegal" drugs.

We have had so many attempts at this war. The miserable failure of "just say no", did provide some great commercials. Who can forget; "This is your brain...This is your brain on drugs... Any questions?" Gives me flashbacks to this day!

I think it would be an interesting platform for a politician to take on assuming he/she had the balls to do so. The enforcement would drive both liberals and conservatives crazy. Ideal in and of itself but potentially it could result in the "best" result - decriminalization or legalize and tax it.



fervid -> RE: Drug Testing (1/8/2007 4:41:03 PM)

amen



farglebargle -> RE: Drug Testing (1/8/2007 5:12:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Too much war and religion discussion. Allow me to open another potential can of worms.

While shopping recently at one of the national major chains I notices a sign posted soliciting employees. There was some fine print in the ad saying that this company required a clean pre-employment drug test and had periodic "random" testing. I know that drug testing has been in effect for some years for some businesses. It seems to now be expanding to jobs approaching or at "minimum wage".


Hmm.. Ever wonder why Home Depot needs to bring in Self-Serve Checkouts.

Here's a hint. Even people working for minimum wage have self respect, and for minimum wage, putting up with the degradation isn't worth it.

quote:


But the subject/question isn't employee drug testing.

A large percentage of the tax dollars generated from these workers goes to fund various social welfare programs ranging from food stamps to subsidized housing. What if the same drug test was required in order to receive any government welfare.


FIRST show me where in the Federal Constitution it is delegated to the Federal Government the authority to run any social welfare program, then show me where it says they can piss test you.

Since the Federal Government is lawfully permitted ONLY those functions explicitly delegated to it, if it's not THERE, it's not their jobs.

Ok, that's the Federal Government.

Now, your STATE may have it's own Constitution, and I cannot speak to that, but likely it has guarantees in line with the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, and would preclude anything like that.


quote:


It sounds like a good program in the "war on drugs".


A failed program, started by the Disgraced Crook Nixon as an excuse to conduct war operations against the Citizens of the United States, and you want to expand it WHY?



farglebargle -> RE: Drug Testing (1/8/2007 5:14:02 PM)

quote:

Well, drugs should not be that important in anyone's life for other than a medical reason.


Of course, you can only speak for yourself.




cyberdude611 -> RE: Drug Testing (1/8/2007 5:18:04 PM)

Pre-employment drug screening is one of the biggest jokes of the corporate world. It does nothing to help the war on drugs, in fact, it makes it worse. Many people who get out of jail for abusing drugs or dealing them try to make an effort to clean up their life. However, when they get out of jail it suddenly hits them...they can't get a job! Not many companies are going to hire a former crack-addict out of prison even if he claims he cleaned up. So what happends is this person becomes depressed again, and turns back to the drugs. Guess what...they either end up back in jail, in the Emergency Room, or dead.

This is the most screwed up society in the free world. It's a joke.



sisambergris -> RE: Drug Testing (1/8/2007 5:21:25 PM)

As someone with MS who plans on using Marijuana down the road for pain and other problems,  I am distressed at the idea of drug testing at work.  I am clean now,  but there will come a point where I will fail any test.   Arizona may be a medical marijuana state, but the Federal laws make it illegal anyway.





amber



farglebargle -> RE: Drug Testing (1/8/2007 5:22:22 PM)

But hey, we freed Afghanistan from the Taliban, so the heroin is flowing like water again!

You know, you can't really tell a Taliban from any other Religious Fundamentalist, can you?




farglebargle -> RE: Drug Testing (1/8/2007 5:24:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sisambergris

As someone with MS who plans on using Marijuana down the road for pain and other problems,


And thank you for pointing out the BIG LIE of the DEA.

"No Medical Use", what a joke. Tell that to Montel WIlliams, for one, and he'll laugh in your face. Well, you'd laugh at them too.






sisambergris -> RE: Drug Testing (1/8/2007 5:30:29 PM)


[/quote]

And thank you for pointing out the BIG LIE of the DEA.

"No Medical Use", what a joke. Tell that to Montel WIlliams, for one, and he'll laugh in your face. Well, you'd laugh at them too.



And he is the one that gave me the idea.  I have pain in my face just like he does in his legs.  At one point he was ready to shoot himself to escape it.  If I am EVER at that point I am using.  Trust me.    I have tried it a few times..I don't CARE if it is illegal.  I am a christian and I have not seen one thing in the bible telling me not to use something that God created to help myself keep from getting a gun.   bah.  humbug.

amber



[/quote]



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Drug Testing (1/8/2007 5:31:27 PM)

I think the point of social programs is to help people for the overall long term good of our nation, even if some small sacrifice for ourselves.  Whether this particular element of them actually goes towards it purpose in an effective manner can be debated- as I could debate most of the mandatory community service programs that a large number of public schools have as part of their graduation requirements.

But I don't think the issue is one of "fairness" or even "rightness."  No one told those people they had to work at those jobs.



farglebargle -> RE: Drug Testing (1/8/2007 5:34:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sisambergris




And thank you for pointing out the BIG LIE of the DEA.

"No Medical Use", what a joke. Tell that to Montel WIlliams, for one, and he'll laugh in your face. Well, you'd laugh at them too.



And he is the one that gave me the idea. I have pain in my face just like he does in his legs. At one point he was ready to shoot himself to escape it. If I am EVER at that point I am using. Trust me. I have tried it a few times..I don't CARE if it is illegal. I am a christian and I have not seen one thing in the bible telling me not to use something that God created to help myself keep from getting a gun. bah. humbug.

amber






As Jews, we have a prayer, which goes a little something like this:

Blessed Art Thou, O Lord our G-d, King of the Universe, who hath created the fruit of the earth.




Lorelei115 -> RE: Drug Testing (1/8/2007 8:39:59 PM)

As kind of a funny aside, my company has a disclaimer on their application that says "If you use illegal drugs, please do not apply to this company." Now.. if you're the kind of person who is using illegal drugs, are you really going to care that they asked you nicely? They also claim to run drug tests regularly, but they really don't. It's more about putting fear into people. If they actually did run random drug tests, they would have to fire probably half their employees...



Sinergy -> RE: Drug Testing (1/8/2007 10:32:54 PM)

What always amuses me about drug testing is that the only drug it can find (unless you have done other drugs in the previous 24 hours) is marijuana.

Which is really the only one on the list of illegal narcotics which doesnt impair your ability to drive heavy equipment, judgement, etc.

Go figure.

Sinergy



ownedgirlie -> RE: Drug Testing (1/8/2007 10:50:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Pre-employment drug screening is one of the biggest jokes of the corporate world. It does nothing to help the war on drugs, in fact, it makes it worse. Many people who get out of jail for abusing drugs or dealing them try to make an effort to clean up their life. However, when they get out of jail it suddenly hits them...they can't get a job! Not many companies are going to hire a former crack-addict out of prison even if he claims he cleaned up. So what happends is this person becomes depressed again, and turns back to the drugs. Guess what...they either end up back in jail, in the Emergency Room, or dead.

This is the most screwed up society in the free world. It's a joke.


I don't think pre-employment drug testing has the war on drugs in mind.  It has to do with an organization not wanting drug users coming to work on drugs.  Actually companies screen just about everything these days - drug tests, DMV pulls, credit reports, etc.  They want to know everything they can about you before they let you in the door.  It has nothing to do with social awareness, and everything to do with protecting their assets and their current employees.  Does it go too far?  I tend to think so, yes.  But this is what we have, currently.  As for random testing in the work place, generally that's just a disclaimer they put in there so if there is reason to believe someone is on drugs at work, they can test the person.  Most organizations are on pretty tight budgets these days and don't have a lot of excess money to throw around on unnecessary drug tests. 

To the OP, I would say that's a fabulous idea but it in effect defeats its own purpose.  Government aid programs are put in place, supposedly to help those in need obtain food, clothing, housing and other basic needs, to get people off the streets and reduce the homeless problem.  Assuming for a moment that half of those in need (and I pulled "half" out of thin air, btw) are on drugs of some sort, then half would be denied the services such programs set out to give, leaving half of the needy folks on the street and without help. Plus, we already tried wellfare cutbacks to encourage the unemployed to become employed and look at the outrage expressed over that.  Can you imagine if we denied help to untreated addicts? 



ownedgirlie -> RE: Drug Testing (1/8/2007 10:53:27 PM)

I found this bit of interesting info at http://www.employmentdrugtesting.com/screening.html

What is tested?
Most employers utilize a standard five-panel test of "street drugs," consisting of Marijuana (THC), Cocaine, PCP, Opiates (such as codeine and morphine) and Amphetamines (including methamphetamine). Some employers use a ten-panel test, which includes prescription drugs that are legal to possess and use. Employers can also test for alcohol.

Although each drug and person is different, most drugs will stay in the system for 2-4 days. For chronic users of certain drugs, such a marijuana or PCP, results can be detected for up to 14 days, and sometimes much longer. Sedatives, such as Valium, may stay in the system for up to 30 days. When the more expensive hair testing method is used, drugs can be detected for a 90-day period. To avoid the complications from "second hand" marijuana smoke, most labs will set a higher threshold before reporting THC in the system.

Most employers will insist that a job applicant give the urine sample within a specific period of time, so that a drug user does not wait until the drugs leave the system. Some drug experts consider a drug test to be an IQ test—taking a test knowing there are drugs in the system is not a sign of great intelligence. Laboratories and collection sites also have ways to determine if the applicant has attempted to alter the test sample.



This was interesting, also: http://www.infolinkscreening.com/InfoLink/DrugTesting/DrugTesting.aspx



kisshou -> RE: Drug Testing (1/9/2007 5:10:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
It also makes sense from a "fairness" perspective. If a person making $10 / hour needs to pee in a cup to qualify to work why shouldn't a person collecting money from that person's taxes be subject to the same scrutiny?


because if we denied benefits to the scum who take advantage of the tax payers by drinking and doing drugs instead of getting a job , the ones who would really suffer are their children. The children are innocent of the wrong doing and would be the ones being punished even worse than they are by having the parents they do.

There is a man who says 'I am alcoholic and working for someone else causes me anxiety'. So his family gets food stamps and his 1 year old is on full medicaid. At least she will get fed sometimes and have medical care if she gets sick (the 1 year old) even though he sits home everyday and gets drunk.




MizSuz -> RE: Drug Testing (1/9/2007 5:55:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Pre-employment drug screening is one of the biggest jokes of the corporate world. It does nothing to help the war on drugs, in fact, it makes it worse. Many people who get out of jail for abusing drugs or dealing them try to make an effort to clean up their life. However, when they get out of jail it suddenly hits them...they can't get a job! Not many companies are going to hire a former crack-addict out of prison even if he claims he cleaned up. So what happends is this person becomes depressed again, and turns back to the drugs. Guess what...they either end up back in jail, in the Emergency Room, or dead.


Not to drive the thread off topic, but anyone who gets out of prison should be ready to either work like a dog for next to nothing and get screwed by the employer in the process, or to start their own business.  There is nothing else there for a convicted felon.  My son did a nickel in florida (not drug related).  When he went in he was not quite 18.  He got out nearly 5 years ago and to this day is still not able to get a decent job because he is a convicted felon.  Never mind that he did every day of his time - EVERY DAY; never mind that when he got out he was square with the system so they couldn't even put him on parole or probation; never mind that he's the hardest working person you've ever seen; never mind that he got multiple occupational certificates and his GED while he was in; never mind that he's had NO trouble since and that he has completely removed himself from the original element that precipitate his thoughtlessness; never mind that he's paid any and all restitution he might have had outstanding; never mind that NOBODY was hurt during the commission of his failed crime; he's never going to be able to get a job, there are many professions he will never be able to get licensed for, and he can never vote in the state he was incarcerated in.

Tell me, how is someone supposed to stay OUT of trouble under these circumstances?  When does the person STOP paying for something they did wrong?  It certainly isn't when he's square with the prison system.  That is the last of my somewhat off topic rant - my apologies to the OP.

I think it could probably be argued that pre-employment drug screening is an invasion of medical privacy.  You are not obligated to inform your employer about your medical situation.  If you test positive they can do a deeper testing that will tell them what you are taking, prescribed or not.  In many instances your medical diagnosis can be assumed from the medications you are on and that sets up the potential for employment denial based on your medical condition, which is not supposed to be a part of pre-employment screenings.  Hell, the fed requires that the employer keep any medical and/ or disability records separate from the employment files.  Most large companies don't even keep the files in the same room to remain in compliance.  But your urine test results go right in your employment file.

Urine testing is as much a waste of resources as the war on drugs, irrespective of social and economic situations.  ANYONE can pass a urine test. 

www.ureasample.com



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