RE: Discipline (Full Version)

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ExSteelAgain -> RE: Discipline (12/26/2006 6:17:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I'm not getting your connection between how control of one's behavior (aka discipline) is connected to becoming habituated and desiring a particular physical experience (aka flogging)?

I am not sure where you got that opinion about discipline to flogging?..He was simply giving an example of being gradual and consistent as a good way to achieve desired results...Tempting


Maybe we are debating degrees of being gradual and consistent or disciplined as LT refers to it. If you continually do something without results, how long do you keep it up? Is 6-7 times enough of a try or are we talking 60-70 attempts?

If it doesn't work after a reasonable period, should you look at the way one or both of you is approaching things? Should you at times move on to another activity?




eyesopened -> RE: Discipline (12/26/2006 6:54:21 AM)

i have, over the years, learned to accept and endure pain but i have never found physical pleasure in it for myself, just the pleasure of being the object of pleasure for the Dom.  i suppose there is a way to get a person to associate pain with pleasure but with the plethora of masochists and pain-sluts available why would anyone go through the trouble of making that association happen in one not naturally inclined?

i don't believe pain-pleasure association is necessarily a result of discipline but more a result of conditioned response but there would have to be more to it than just the regular application of pain, i think.




SirLordTrainer -> RE: Discipline (12/26/2006 7:13:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

OK I get that going to the gym and doing reps with weights every day will help an athlete be trained to lift weights in the Olympics.

I don't get how a daily flogging will help a slave do anything in particular except be able to take a daily flogging.  Perhaps there might be some mental pressure switch that "keeps her in her place" and turn it into a ritual form of connection between the two, but again I'm not seeing where discipline really comes into it or how the daily flogging helps them become more disciplined or more able to do some other task.

See what I mean?  Good boy.


Apparently youve mistaken Me for someone who could actually care about your viewpoint, however I do want to applaud your inability to be mutually respectful in your posts, as that says quite a bit about discipline in and of itself, or rather the lack thereof. If youve nothing positive to say about Me or My thoughts on this topic then kindly refrain from future posts on this thread. Future negativity and disrespectful behavior from you and/or those who support your 'view' will be cheerfully ignored and blocked. 




ExSteelAgain -> RE: Discipline (12/26/2006 7:19:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

i have, over the years, learned to accept and endure pain but i have never found physical pleasure in it for myself, just the pleasure of being the object of pleasure for the Dom.  i suppose there is a way to get a person to associate pain with pleasure but with the plethora of masochists and pain-sluts available why would anyone go through the trouble of making that association happen in one not naturally inclined?

i don't believe pain-pleasure association is necessarily a result of discipline but more a result of conditioned response but there would have to be more to it than just the regular application of pain, i think.



EyesO, I've seen you say before that you have never spaced, etc. and you make the point well that some people are just never going to become enthusiastic about the flogger or whatever. As you say, you may endure it for the Dom's sake, but you are not going to learn to love it. 




SirLordTrainer -> RE: Discipline (12/26/2006 7:24:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TemptingNviceSub

"I am not sure where you got that opinion about discipline to flogging?..He was simply giving an example of being gradual and consistent as a good way to achieve desired results..."

"What I am understanding you are saying is that ,as in anything, D/s relationship,BDSM,pain tolerence,attitude adjustments,or whatever, it all wraps around consistent, slow,continuous growth and learning on both sides of the whip so to speak?..."

Tempting


This coincides perfectly to My view, that and Lady Hugs interpretation. Good eye novice ;)




Nosathro -> RE: Discipline (12/26/2006 8:58:08 AM)

greetings Lucky Albatross
 
I have always enjoyed reading your threads and you have alot of good information to share.  I have been thinking on this thread and for me, I think there is still some confussion.
 
First off, for me, I never just get a slave put her on the St Andrews Cross and flogger at that start of the day.  That is not discipline, rather I would venture to say it more curelty.  What I am saying is, once a slave knows the rules and the boundaries, the slave also understands that if she disobeies, violate the rules she agreed to etc, she knows she will be punished.  I think what is some here are saying is that the Certainty of punishment for violating rules, disobedience etc helps in the discipline.  This I do agree with, for knowing that the rules are enforced there is structure and training and achieveing goals can now be the focus.  I hope this clears up the confussion.
 
I wish you well
 
Nosathro




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Discipline (12/26/2006 9:23:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro
This I do agree with, for knowing that the rules are enforced there is structure and training and achieveing goals can now be the focus.  I hope this clears up the confussion.

I wish you well

Nosathro

Not in terms of what SLT was saying.  There are plenty of Ms dynamics which do not incorporate punishment within them whatsoever.  They thrive and everyone is quite disciplined.

I'm not suggesting punishment is no good and serves no purpose, I'm simply still lacking this connection between flogging/disipline/punishment/ritualistic connection.  I understand that they all CAN flow together quite fine, but SLTs post seem to be trying to suggest that this IS the way for discipline.




KnightofMists -> RE: Discipline (12/26/2006 9:49:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirLordTrainer

I view discipline apart from punishment. To Me, discipline is about growth in mind, spirit and body. It builds character and provides a basic foundation for most, if not all submissives,slaves and Dominant's. With consistency being the key, one can grow progressively and gradually.


Many character strengths such as Discipline assists in building character of the person.  Is it a basic foundation?  For some it is.. for some it is not.  Consistency in don't what.... consistent progess?  consistent effort?  People fall... make mistakes... but many get up and continue in the direction they had been traveling... some quit and go a different direction.  Discipline by itself is a boat going forward without a rudder.  Dependency on one particular tool... well... better hope all issues are a nail if all you use is a hammer.

quote:


Discipline is the backbone that can sustain and promote a healthy power-exchange. Even Dominant's should have some type of discipline in their lives to build upon in their own journey of growth in bettering their knowledge and skill levels. I know personally I would feel discontented if I were not bettering My skill and understanding, so that I couldnt guide and train My submissive to both our satisfaction.


Again.. many character strengths can promote a healthy relationship regardless of structure.  Should Dominant's have it... Hell everyone should have any character strength that promotes them along their choosen journey.

quote:


That said, and keeping in mind the word 'gradual', discipline can empower a subservient to serve in a positive, more uninhibited and pleasing manner.


OK... but HOW????  you make a claim but how does discipline empower a subservient to serve in a postive more uninhibited and pleasing manner?


quote:


For those intimidated about pain it can with time and patience, turn a once flogger-shy girl into one who craves the whip, blending and building the true understanding of the pleasure/pain principle to which all is a gradual progression. Would enjoy hearing others views on this topic, how you utilize it for yourself as well instill it in your submissive/slave.


But this doesn't answer the How.  How is Discipline suppose to take a person that is intimidated by pain into one that craves it.

No matter how much discipline  I have in running into a brick wall getting up and running into it again... i don't see how discipline will ever cause be to crave to get up and run into the bring wall again.

Seems you disgard the motivations within people for the sake of the Mantra of Discipline.  Discipline will save us all... give us great relaitonships and we will never have to look back.  Frankly, it is only one tool in the toolbox. 




lixi -> RE: Discipline (12/26/2006 10:05:58 AM)

Yo puedo si tu no tienes ama ahora




RedSavageSlave -> RE: Discipline (12/26/2006 10:08:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirLordTrainer

If youve nothing positive to say about Me or My thoughts on this topic then kindly refrain from future posts on this thread.  


You know.. I do so love when someone decides s/he doesnt like what someone else says and decides the best response is to tell them what to do.  And soo counter productive too as I have found in other threads that when offered that kind of challenge (as opposed to just ignoring the thread deemed insulting)...it usually devolves from the OP to a pissing match.

Just an observation.[8|]




RedSavageSlave -> RE: Discipline (12/26/2006 10:11:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lixi

Yo puedo si tu no tienes ama ahora


This is what she said (per online translator)
I can if your you do not have master now

I am not sure what she meant though..[&:]




LadyHugs -> RE: Discipline (12/26/2006 12:58:34 PM)

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
This posting is not in response to any one post and or writings, and or individuals.
 
In my mind's eyes I see, that "discipline" is very wide in it's use.  Discipline as mastering an art/skill, discipline as mastering self such as a diet and or growing in a spiritual way, etc.,  Discipline as far as maintaining order and or discipline which is connection to punishments.
 
I agree with KnightofMists, where he identified "Discipline" as a tool not the tool that fits all.  There are many things Dominants can apply, using the least amount of force necessary as to 'drive the point home,' per se.  From the "look" (Dominants know what I mean--slaves/submissives get deer eyes in the headlight look and a huge gulp) to heavy impact corporal punishment; with everything in between.
 
What needs to be said further, is that with Discipline, there must come good intent, good judgement, good understanding of the infraction prior to 'punishment' and establish if it was a mistake, accident and or willful disobedience, as to manipulate and or control the Dominant into a behavior, such as 'pain' through discipline/punishment.  Along with Discipline, there is a need for a big dose of patience and compassion.  Before punishment, there needs to have been long prior to the infraction, a clear understanding of what misdeeds will reep consequences.  This isn't kindergarten or child's play.  We're dealing with adults and teaching/training can be done effectively with a good conversation and why things need to be done a certain way.  But, it also needs to be said further; slaves do train, educate and inspire their Masters as well.  Masters need to be open to it and both slave and Master need to understand, that nobody is a 'know it all' but, acknowledge each may know a lot.
 
In addition--Masters and slaves must operate on trust during lessons and or training, as well as when the slave goes solo; putting into practice what was learned and, to allow the slave to put their 'spirit' or their 'style' into serving, as long as it is within the boundaries of the lesson.
Discipline is what keeps the lessons orderly and the authority structure in place however, it is not the license to be oppressive or cruel. When the slave puts into practice what is learned; the Dominant transfers the power and the discipline for the slave to manage.  Just as it is a transfer of power and discipline to educate others, as to best manage their daily life.  For an example, in teaching the slave about the disciplines of getting into a physical position as a second nature, they use that position as to best handle impacts and make it the least painful as possible.  `Tis the second nature, to which a Master seeks for a slave to learn and master, thus gains their own self discipline and are empowered by such.
 
Just some thoughts.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs
 
 




SirLordTrainer -> RE: Discipline (12/26/2006 3:45:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Not in terms of what SLT was saying.  There are plenty of Ms dynamics which do not incorporate punishment within them whatsoever.  They thrive and everyone is quite disciplined.

I'm not suggesting punishment is no good and serves no purpose, I'm simply still lacking this connection between flogging/disipline/punishment/ritualistic connection.  I understand that they all CAN flow together quite fine, but SLTs post seem to be trying to suggest that this IS the way for discipline.


Firstly, had you actually read instead of random glancing youd find in in paragraph 3 of My thoughts I clarified these to be My personal views based on My realtime experiences adding further not to put everyone into the same mold which points clearly to I never insist My way is the right way but rather it works for Me.




SirLordTrainer -> RE: Discipline (12/29/2006 9:28:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirLordTrainer

I view discipline apart from punishment. To Me, discipline is about growth in mind, spirit and body. It builds character and provides a basic foundation for most, if not all submissives,slaves and Dominant's. With consistency being the key, one can grow progressively and gradually.


Many character strengths such as Discipline assists in building character of the person.  Is it a basic foundation?  For some it is.. for some it is not.  Consistency in don't what.... consistent progess?  consistent effort?  People fall... make mistakes... but many get up and continue in the direction they had been traveling... some quit and go a different direction.  Discipline by itself is a boat going forward without a rudder.  Dependency on one particular tool... well... better hope all issues are a nail if all you use is a hammer.

quote:


Discipline is the backbone that can sustain and promote a healthy power-exchange. Even Dominant's should have some type of discipline in their lives to build upon in their own journey of growth in bettering their knowledge and skill levels. I know personally I would feel discontented if I were not bettering My skill and understanding, so that I couldnt guide and train My submissive to both our satisfaction.


Again.. many character strengths can promote a healthy relationship regardless of structure.  Should Dominant's have it... Hell everyone should have any character strength that promotes them along their choosen journey.

quote:


That said, and keeping in mind the word 'gradual', discipline can empower a subservient to serve in a positive, more uninhibited and pleasing manner.


OK... but HOW????  you make a claim but how does discipline empower a subservient to serve in a postive more uninhibited and pleasing manner?


quote:


For those intimidated about pain it can with time and patience, turn a once flogger-shy girl into one who craves the whip, blending and building the true understanding of the pleasure/pain principle to which all is a gradual progression. Would enjoy hearing others views on this topic, how you utilize it for yourself as well instill it in your submissive/slave.


But this doesn't answer the How.  How is Discipline suppose to take a person that is intimidated by pain into one that craves it.

No matter how much discipline  I have in running into a brick wall getting up and running into it again... i don't see how discipline will ever cause be to crave to get up and run into the bring wall again 


Based on My own experiences I can only say that in My mind's view,  I can only say that you must look inside your own experiences to find the answer to your 'question(s)' regarding My actions,  adding as well if that is not sufficient.. try the sound of one hand clapping




whisperedsighs -> RE: Discipline (12/30/2006 10:52:26 AM)

I keep seeing people in this forum equating discipline with punishment.  Discipline does not have to equate punishment.  Discipline can mean practicing piano every day.  Discipline can be getting up, showering, eating right, and going to work and doing a good job.  Discipline then in a D/s relationship could simply be the Dom holding the submissive responsible to uphold certain behaviors and standards on a daily basis. 
I keep seeing people ignoring the very first line of the OP's post, "I view discipline apart from punishment." 
 
I think that discipline is just one tool in the box, but it can be applied creatively to obtain certain results, and if it works for the OP and his sub, then who is anyone who is not a part of that dynamic to say that it didn't? 




nephandi -> RE: Discipline (12/30/2006 12:54:35 PM)

i understand your point, i think Master, it is like, i dont go balancing on the edge of a cliff becouse i know that if i fall i fill certently go splat. i dont put my hand in a candle flame becouse i know it will hurt myself, and i dont disobey my Master becouse i know i will be punished. The knowledge that if i do this i will be punished that is what keep me from doing it. That in a way help build slef disepline, the resitence of the urge to do what i pleese, and instead do what i am orderd to do.




SirLordTrainer -> RE: Discipline (12/30/2006 6:34:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: whisperedsighs

I keep seeing people in this forum equating discipline with punishment.  Discipline does not have to equate punishment.  Discipline can mean practicing piano every day.  Discipline can be getting up, showering, eating right, and going to work and doing a good job.  Discipline then in a D/s relationship could simply be the Dom holding the submissive responsible to uphold certain behaviors and standards on a daily basis. 
I keep seeing people ignoring the very first line of the OP's post, "I view discipline apart from punishment." 
 
I think that discipline is just one tool in the box, but it can be applied creatively to obtain certain results, and if it works for the OP and his sub, then who is anyone who is not a part of that dynamic to say that it didn't? 




I applaud and thank you for your astute observance whispered one, indeed, likeminds are not completely dead on this site after all.. I will no longer post to this thread, as originally I had only wanted to share My thoughts rather than having them debated. I do however thank those who did post either questioningly or in a positive likeminded fashion as this is a forum after all.. My thoughts were just a mornings pondering over a pot of coffee.. Happy New Year to you A/all..




ShiftedJewel -> RE: Discipline (12/31/2006 10:39:40 AM)

I don't know if this is going to help clear things up or make the water muddier, but...
 
I have, in the past, had experience in what SLT is talking about. I have also help a friend learn and understand the process as well. You take someone that isn't particularly into pain, it's a long, slow process... And you start working with them, you choose a type of pain that can be gradually increased... like nipple torture. You stick with it and combine it with some very pleasurable... like stimulating the clit. Work towards an orgasm but don't go there. Regularly increase the pain to the nipples while incorporating the stimulus, with the occasional orgasm. It's kind of like Pablov's Dog, over time they learn to associate pain with pleasure. It's a slow and gradual buildup, especially when you choose to incorporate different types of pain... but it does work... it works beautifully.
 
Jewel




KnightofMists -> RE: Discipline (12/31/2006 1:08:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirLordTrainer

Based on My own experiences I can only say that in My mind's view,  I can only say that you must look inside your own experiences to find the answer to your 'question(s)' regarding My actions,  adding as well if that is not sufficient.. try the sound of one hand clapping


typical  ... individuals that speak mantra's can't go beyond it and provide any substance to contribute to the dialogue and growth.




impetuousone -> RE: Discipline (12/31/2006 1:40:07 PM)

Sir,

Absolutely, in my most humble opinion, there is a difference between discipline and punishment!  Let me preface this by saying I am a masochist and I am speaking of when I have been serving a sadist.  Discipline is the guideline.  Punishment is the last resort, when all else has failed.  I, as a severe masochist can take and even enjoy physical discipline.  Physical punishment?  Yikes!  Once I know the sadist, I will, as they say, mind my p's and q's to make sure it doesn't get that far...very often!   There is that brat in me that loves to push my dominant, but...whew!  Punishment is just that!  There is nothing fun or "feel good" about it!

Now, that said...Does constant discipline build up stamina?  Of course it does!  Is it a connection to one's dominant?  Yes, it is.  Very much so.  It is positive reinforcement of the power exchange.

I hope I have addressed the point you were trying to make!




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