Discipline (Full Version)

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SirLordTrainer -> Discipline (12/24/2006 6:48:56 PM)

 I view discipline apart from punishment. To Me, discipline is about growth in mind, spirit and body. It builds character and provides a basic foundation for most, if not all submissives,slaves and Dominant's. With consistency being the key, one can grow progressively and gradually.

Discipline is the backbone that can sustain and promote a healthy power-exchange. Even Dominant's should have some type of discipline in their lives to build upon in their own journey of growth in bettering their knowledge and skill levels. I know personally I would feel discontented if I were not bettering My skill and understanding, so that I couldnt guide and train My submissive to both our satisfaction.

I speak from My own experience as a mentor in the several years Ive been involved with BDSM, from a realtime perspective. So dont think Im trying to put everyone into the same mold as that is not or never would be My intent. Adding further, there are many types of training and discipline's. That said, and keeping in mind the word 'gradual', discipline can empower a subservient to serve in a positive, more uninhibited and pleasing manner.

For those intimidated about pain it can with time and patience, turn a once flogger-shy girl into one who craves the whip, blending and building the true understanding of the pleasure/pain principle to which all is a gradual progression. Would enjoy hearing others views on this topic, how you utilize it for yourself as well instill it in your submissive/slave.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Discipline (12/24/2006 7:32:00 PM)

I'm not getting your connection between how control of one's behavior (aka discipline) is connected to becoming habituated and desiring a particular physical experience (aka flogging)?

However, I will note that I often see that my 5 year old nephew expresses far more discipline than plenty of the people on this board on a regular basis.


http://www.collarchat.com/m_611292/mpage_2/key_punishment/tm.htm#611778
Punishment is Deceptive

http://www.collarchat.com/m_597685/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#597689
Talking Vs Corporal Punishment

http://www.collarchat.com/m_572243/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#572280
Question for female subs on punishment

http://www.collarchat.com/m_18608/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#18608
Punishment and Discipline

http://www.collarchat.com/m_74162/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#74162
Training?  Punishment?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_84734/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#84734
Punishment vs Play

http://www.collarchat.com/m_146151/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#146151
What is the difference between punishment and discipline?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_374557/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#374557
Testing, being broken, regular punishment, etc, etc....

http://www.collarchat.com/m_523257/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#523257
Discipline & Punishment

http://www.collarchat.com/m_495126/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#495126
On punishment



Nosathro -> RE: Discipline (12/24/2006 7:46:36 PM)

Tal Sir Lord Trainer
 
quote:
 I view discipline apart from punishment. To Me, discipline is about growth in mind, spirit and body. It builds character and provides a basic foundation for most, if not all submissives,slaves and Dominant's. With consistency being the key, one can grow progressively and gradually.

Discipline is the backbone that can sustain and promote a healthy power-exchange. Even Dominant's should have some type of discipline in their lives to build upon in their own journey of growth in bettering their knowledge and skill levels. I know personally I would feel discontented if I were not bettering My skill and understanding, so that I couldnt guide and train My submissive to both our satisfaction.

 
I do agree with those statements.  In Gor there is a saying "Before You can Master a slave, You must Master yourself".  In my methods I clearly inform a slave that they are being punished, the reason, and what is the punishment. Now I perfer to keep the type punishment in a variable, the slave knows that punishment is certain has a far better effect then the type.  I have emposed sitting in a corner, withdrawal of privileges, restrictions on movement, objectification, such as the "Table" position or "she-sleen" (being treated as an animal), fogging and torture are used as well and at times I will require them to write about what they did wrong and how it effect the Master/slave releationship and then reading allowed to me is also effective.
 
I wish you well
 
Nosathro



losttreasure -> RE: Discipline (12/24/2006 10:16:47 PM)

I'm with LA... I don't get how disclipline can lead to craving pain, either.



SirLordTrainer -> RE: Discipline (12/25/2006 8:34:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I'm not getting your connection between how control of one's behavior (aka discipline) is connected to becoming habituated and desiring a particular physical experience (aka flogging)?

However, I will note that I often see that my 5 year old nephew expresses far more discipline than plenty of the people on this board on a regular basis.



I was not mentioning control as that is a different subject than what I was relaying here. And it is My personal view. The links were unnecessary..  See it differently?  Good for you.



SirLordTrainer -> RE: Discipline (12/25/2006 8:38:20 AM)

Greetings/Tal Nosathro, Seems we share a similiar perspective thanks for sharing your view.  Best



angharad -> RE: Discipline (12/25/2006 8:47:57 AM)

quote:

turn a once flogger-shy girl into one who craves the whip, blending and building the true understanding of the pleasure/pain principle to which all is a gradual progression.


I hope so and I think so.

If my punishment were inflicted pain I would have a hard time enjoying pain at all.  For me its coping with the fear of the pain, paradoxically the fear is addictive too.  I don't understand how to do what you describe, but I trust it can be done. 

Btw I'm not totally flogger shy or totally pain shy, I like pain, its just it hurts and it depends who's holding the flogger! 

Discipline though, is more a way of thinking and then behaving.  I don't see how pain is the best method, for me to change thoughts or behavours.  Mixing the two, pain and discipline defeats the objective of finding pleasure in the pain. 



SirLordTrainer -> RE: Discipline (12/25/2006 9:09:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: angharad

quote:

turn a once flogger-shy girl into one who craves the whip, blending and building the true understanding of the pleasure/pain principle to which all is a gradual progression.



If my punishment were inflicted pain I would have a hard time enjoying pain at all.  For me its coping with the fear of the pain, paradoxically the fear is addictive too.  I don't understand how to do what you describe, but I trust it can be done. 


Discipline though, is more a way of thinking and then behaving.  I don't see how pain is the best method, for me to change thoughts or behavours.  Mixing the two, pain and discipline defeats the objective of finding pleasure in the pain. 



Pain, control and punishment are not what Im touching on here. My view on discipline coincide's moreso with the following definition excerpt;

activity, exercise, to train by instruction or a regimen that develops or improves a skill; training: A daily stint at the typewriter is excellent discipline for a writer.



LadyHugs -> RE: Discipline (12/25/2006 9:26:08 AM)

Dear SirLordTrainer, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
Discipline in my mind's eyes I see, is the establishment between the authority and submission to that authority, as to keep the respect for each other roles alive and orderly.
 
Discipline in my mind's eyes I see, is setting the example.  Not just flapping my gums to hear myself talk but, to act in a manner that I wish my slave to adopt as their own.  I also see Discipline as a form of exchanged power and energy; to which feeds both Master and slave.
Power manifests in many ways but, not always in strength.  In my mind's eyes I see, discipline as uniformity and or consistancy.  In my mind's eyes I see discipline is a form of control, to which the human body may be inclined to react in a manner however, control and or self discipline, empowers that person to fight their instincts or impulses as to be pro-active, rather than re-active. [Example: fire fighters--any normal human would run away from a fire, firemen/women run into the fire and save lives, property and each other].  In my mind's eyes I see, discipline is a form of restraint.  It may be restraint from a behavior and or words, such as to think before speaking and or how to speak, such as adding Sir or Ma'am; from sitting on furniture but, instead on a butt towel on the floor, and or a Master from the edge of abuse, cruelty and violating their word, their oath and or bond, etc.
 
Discipline requires beyond authority, a degree and or level of trust, as to give the ability to learn as well as the ability to teach.  To operate inside that invisible box we're all operating in; it permits the freedom of a slave to operate within it without harm.  The Master maintains that boundary or invisible box, with the desire to expand the boundaries, adding more ground and thus, more freedom for the slave to venture safely in.  [Example: Like the new invisible fences for dogs, which allows them freedom to romp without being leashed or tied to a post]
 
In my mind's eyes I see; discipline can be different levels of protocol. From the in-house and casual to the formal protocols during a formal dinner.  In addition the degrees of disciplines of the whip, gives the whip master the ability to throw it with compassion, sensual, punishment, healing/catharsis and or maintaining the slave, such as maintainence as to feed the slave.  Otherwise, it merely is throwing the whip for the sake of beating someone with it.  The 'discipline' is the 'art' of whip work and the intent when sending it forward.
 
Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs
 
 
 
 
 
 



SirLordTrainer -> RE: Discipline (12/25/2006 12:00:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHugs

Dear SirLordTrainer, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
Discipline in my mind's eyes I see, is the establishment between the authority and submission to that authority, as to keep the respect for each other roles alive and orderly.
 
Discipline in my mind's eyes I see, is setting the example.  Not just flapping my gums to hear myself talk but, to act in a manner that I wish my slave to adopt as their own.  I also see Discipline as a form of exchanged power and energy; to which feeds both Master and slave.

Power manifests in many ways but, not always in strength.  In my mind's eyes I see, discipline as uniformity and or consistancy.

Discipline requires beyond authority, a degree and or level of trust, as to give the ability to learn as well as the ability to teach. 
 
In my mind's eyes I see; discipline can be different levels of protocol. From the in-house and casual to the formal protocols during a formal dinner.
 
  In addition the degrees of disciplines of the whip, gives the whip master the ability to throw it with compassion, sensual, punishment, healing/catharsis and or maintaining the slave, such as maintainence as to feed the slave.  Otherwise, it merely is throwing the whip for the sake of beating someone with it.  The 'discipline' is the 'art' of whip work and the intent when sending it forward.
 
Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs
 


I appreciate your opinion and imput as it is parrallel with much of what I was pointing to. Happy Holidays



angharad -> RE: Discipline (12/25/2006 1:25:55 PM)

quote:

Pain, control and punishment are not what Im touching on here


It was not really what I was trying to say to be honest. I apologise if I haven't been clear or it looks as though I have been using the words discipline and punishment interchangeably.  I was drawn to the pleasure/pain part of your post because it has relevance to me.  

The discipline part of your post made me think of going back into education.  It doesn't only require practical skills such as better keyboard skills [:)] it requires thought changes and commitment.  Smaller tasks make up the bigger objective, e.g. making journals and plans, being accountable, setting time aside.  It also made me think of being trained to thinkand behave differently,  to be committed to doing something, no excuses in everything I undertake.  Now for example if I fail and make excuses, to be punished with pain, if punishment is appropriate,  would have a negative affect on the training running concurrently on pain and pleasure sensations and developing this.  When you wrote someone who is intimidated by pain can be with time and patience brought to crave the whip, I thought thats me and I want that.

I hope I have explained a little better what was in my mind, I can't answer your question and posted simply because it hit a chord with me, if I have it wrong then I apologise.




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Discipline (12/25/2006 1:51:11 PM)

OK I get that going to the gym and doing reps with weights every day will help an athlete be trained to lift weights in the Olympics.

I don't get how a daily flogging will help a slave do anything in particular except be able to take a daily flogging.  Perhaps there might be some mental pressure switch that "keeps her in her place" and turn it into a ritual form of connection between the two, but again I'm not seeing where discipline really comes into it or how the daily flogging helps them become more disciplined or more able to do some other task.

See what I mean?  Good boy.



nikaa -> RE: Discipline (12/25/2006 2:58:58 PM)

What is discipline?
Discipline is guidance. When a Master guides his slave toward positive behavior and learning, they are promoting a healthy attitude. Positive guidance encourages a slave to think before acting. Positive guidance promotes self-control. Discipline requires thought, consistency, planning, and patience.

What is punishment?
Punishment is a control behavior either physical, verbal, mental or emotional and should be given out consistently. Punishment does not promote self-discipline. It ONLY addresses or stops displeasing or bad behavior for that moment. Punishment fulfills a short-term goal, but interferes with the long-term goal of gaining self-control.

(Please note the above definitions are the my personal definitions of punishment and discipline.)

Discipline rituals, particularly those maintained over a long period of time, hold a certain power over their participants. Not a physical power, but an emotional one-and when that ritual is missed or taken away or denied, a sense of loss occurs.

My Master has a discipline ritual for me myself it is not a physical one but a mental one meant to remind me of my role (or place) within our relationship. I am to kneel for 30 minutes within a corner or a quiet place first thing in the morning and recite,  “He is Master, and I am Slave. He is owner, and I am owned. He commands, and I obey. He is to be pleased, and I am to please. Why is this? Because he is Master and I am Slave.”  In my eyes this teaches me self discipline something that I believe is his ultimate goal.

But my question is this, those that engage in physical discipline rituals, do you find they lose effectiveness as time passes?

Let me give you a hypothetical example.

A slave is called to kneel at her Master’s feet every night after dinner, to recount her day. If- only if- she failed to do something her Master required or something simply was not up par she is punished immediately.

In another household, a slave is called upon every night after dinner, to recount her day. But afterwards, regardless of what she did or did not do during her day, she is bent over the table and he uses his belt on her. The intensity may vary from day to day but she feels the sting of the belt every night.

I understand that the discipline and consistency is needed in both households.
 
However, would the slave in the 2nd scenario eventually stop feeling the physical incentive?
 
Does the physical incentive of discpline rituals ware of or do they lead to self-discipline?
 
What happens if for some reason those physical discipline rituals do not occur?



LadyHugs -> RE: Discipline (12/25/2006 4:53:25 PM)

Dear nikaa, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
I can only speak for my mind's eyes views on the two question posed.  I will also add, that it is difficult at best to respond to both questions, as there are as many varieties of slaves as there are 'remedies' to apply as far as rituals, punishment, disciplinary boundary reminders and the like.  Further, it really is also a slave's mindset, emotional state as well as spiritual makeup that influences any response I would have.
 
In the oral ritual of reciting for 'discipline' sake, it can loose it's value as the words are empty an hollow, as it just is a practice of saying the words, as to commit to memorization.  For example; The Pledge of Allegiance to the United States of America.  We learned this "Oath" of loyalty, commitment, faithfulness, duty to the USA.  As children it held little value but, when we become adults and when the USA is threatened this "Pledge of Allegiance" takes on a new meaning, as it comes from an adult awareness of what oath and duty means.
 
The question posed is concerning the physical aspects of the rituals practiced, be it oral and or physical.  I can only say for myself, that it really depends on the 'spirit' of which it is done by the other person.
If it is just a practiced series of words, it is a delivery of what I want to hear but, not what I need to hear.  The layers under the words said is what I seek to hear--what it really means beyond the words.  The tone of words transmits that, in my mind's eyes I see.
 
Each Dominant knows their slave best.  So, given the two examples posed, I can see where a masochist would enjoy a nightly strapping on the buttocks by a belt.  It is a more pleasure/pain sensation.  Whereas, a sensual slave would be well punished by the one strapping at the time where performance was less than adequate.  So, I can see where both could be well applied.
 
I can see where a action such as a strapping every night, to a slave's bottom; regardless if the slave did well or did wrong would loose effectiveness, as there is no distinction between good or wrong.  So, the punishment would be moot when the division between good or wrong is lost.  Yet, if it was incorporated into a ritual, where the Dominant flogged three strokes; to honor the past, the present and future; where it is well known that it is a ritual/ceremony/protocol rather than being placed into a 'punishment' --the slave's mind can embrace the 'spirit of intent' behind that ritual's flogging.
 
In my mind's eyes I see--the intent of the Dominant's strokes from hand or tool, must be known to the slave/submissive; as to embrace in their mind the purpose of the strokes administered. 
 
Agreed, a Dominant may not need to justify applying corporal administrations on a slave; however--it is best left out of the practice when it comes to a teaching aid, when it is applied no matter if the slave is good or bad.  After a while, the brain, the body, the spirit and the emotions grow numb.
 
Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs



nikaa -> RE: Discipline (12/25/2006 5:04:56 PM)

Lady Hugs,

I do enjoy reading your post they are always well written and well thought out. Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts.






LadyHugs -> RE: Discipline (12/25/2006 5:07:23 PM)

Dear nikaa,  Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
I am pleased to be of service to you and others by sharing what I see in my mind's eyes.
 
Respectfully submitted,
Lady Hugs



ExSteelAgain -> RE: Discipline (12/25/2006 7:01:03 PM)

First, let me say excellent comments by LadyHugs.

It looks like we have come to the point in the discussion where we are asking if a sub is disciplined enough to stick with something such as daily floggings, can she learn to enjoy it.

There is not an absolute here. A certain percentage will although some will never learn to like it. Some will either get it after a very few experiences or never get it. So the main question is will those who don’t learn to enjoy being flogged after 6-7 times get it after 60-70 times?

Possibly, but mainly, no, unless something drastically changes in the way the Dom does things or the way the sub approaches it. The better solution, it seems to me, is to find what works early on or realize the sub may never get into flogging and move onto another activity and see how that works.  



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Discipline (12/25/2006 7:46:46 PM)

Interesting Ex, I was having this discussion with my partner this week.

I explained to him that 80% of "limits" are due to irrational fears and/or someone fucking up at some point.  Give someone enough time, with someone skilled and patient enough, all of those limits will shed away, and likely become very desired activities.

The other 20% are simply what they are- immutable and go deeper than fear or some fuck up.  Discipline isn't what's needed in these cases- simply understanding and compatibility of limits.



TemptingNviceSub -> RE: Discipline (12/25/2006 9:10:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirLordTrainer

I view discipline apart from punishment. To Me, discipline is about growth in mind, spirit and body. It builds character and provides a basic foundation for most, if not all submissives,slaves and Dominant's. With consistency being the key, one can grow progressively and gradually.

Discipline is the backbone that can sustain and promote a healthy power-exchange. Even Dominant's should have some type of discipline in their lives to build upon in their own journey of growth in bettering their knowledge and skill levels. I know personally I would feel discontented if I were not bettering My skill and understanding, so that I couldnt guide and train My submissive to both our satisfaction.

I speak from My own experience as a mentor in the several years Ive been involved with BDSM, from a realtime perspective. So dont think Im trying to put everyone into the same mold as that is not or never would be My intent. Adding further, there are many types of training and discipline's. That said, and keeping in mind the word 'gradual', discipline can empower a subservient to serve in a positive, more uninhibited and pleasing manner.

For those intimidated about pain it can with time and patience, turn a once flogger-shy girl into one who craves the whip, blending and building the true understanding of the pleasure/pain principle to which all is a gradual progression. Would enjoy hearing others views on this topic, how you utilize it for yourself as well instill it in your submissive/slave.
What I am understanding you are saying is that ,as in anything, D/s relationship,BDSM,pain tolerence,attitude adjustments,or whatever, it all wraps around consistent, slow,continuous growth and learning on both sides of the whip so to speak?...Tempting



TemptingNviceSub -> RE: Discipline (12/25/2006 9:15:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I'm not getting your connection between how control of one's behavior (aka discipline) is connected to becoming habituated and desiring a particular physical experience (aka flogging)?

However, I will note that I often see that my 5 year old nephew expresses far more discipline than plenty of the people on this board on a regular basis.


http://www.collarchat.com/m_611292/mpage_2/key_punishment/tm.htm#611778
Punishment is Deceptive

http://www.collarchat.com/m_597685/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#597689
Talking Vs Corporal Punishment

http://www.collarchat.com/m_572243/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#572280
Question for female subs on punishment

http://www.collarchat.com/m_18608/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#18608
Punishment and Discipline

http://www.collarchat.com/m_74162/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#74162
Training?  Punishment?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_84734/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#84734
Punishment vs Play

http://www.collarchat.com/m_146151/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#146151
What is the difference between punishment and discipline?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_374557/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#374557
Testing, being broken, regular punishment, etc, etc....

http://www.collarchat.com/m_523257/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#523257
Discipline & Punishment

http://www.collarchat.com/m_495126/mpage_1/key_punishment/tm.htm#495126
On punishment
I am not sure where you got that opinion about discipline to flogging?..He was simply giving an example of being gradual and consistent as a good way to achieve desired results...Tempting



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