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RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/21/2006 7:58:57 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elegant

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

There is a difference between being a tennis player and being an expert tennis player. One can be a tennis player and not a professional tennis player.

ahh..but in the completly made-up, imaginary, fabricated, fictitious, pretend scenario the person called himself a tennis player but needed someone to tell him how to play tennis....grin

aaaah... but how did he know to call himself a tennis player in the first place? Did he watch tennis... did some tell him about it... from his observation did he suddenly have a sudden revelation that he like tennis and he was a tennis player?

I think sometimes a person just doesn't communicate very well...

Instead of saying this:
I am a tennis player. I am entering a tennis tournament next month. Can someone tell me how to play tennis?

I wonder if the don't mean this:
I watch some people play tennis.. it looked fun and I want to learn so I can play in the tournmment next month.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 12/21/2006 8:01:13 AM >

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Elegant)

Post #: 21

RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/21/2006 8:00:16 AM

darksdesire

Posts: 326
Joined: 10/18/2006
Status: offline

I tend to see this claim to being Dominant or submissive as an issue of sexual orientation and innate nature.  When I was 7, I let a little boy tie me up, and I was unbelievably thrilled. My sexual fantasies always involved BDSM long before I engaged in such activities. In fact, as a young adult I felt so horrified of my fantasies that I tried to change my sexual nature by fantasizing about "normal" things, but those things simply didn't excite me. Even in vanilla relationships, I've been submissive and eager to serve and please. I worked very hard at trying to alter my sexual interests and my submissive personality, all to no avail. It took me years to understand that I could no more change my submissive nature than I could change my eye color.

So, I was "a submissive" long before I even understood what that meant. I believe, at least for me, it is as innate as being heterosexual or gay or bi-sexual. You don't have to have experience in order to have a sexual orientation. The analogy of being a doctor or a tennis player doesn't work, because those things are merely skills, and not an issue of a deeper identity. If you are a woman having sexual fantasies only about other women, and are being always drawn to other women, you are likely lesbian whether you've had sexual experience or not.   I think the same thing applies to being submissive or dominant.

I accepted my orientation a bit later in life, and when I discovered there were others like me, you can believe I was excited and eager to learn all I could. Who better to learn from than others with the same orientation. Our mainstream culture doesn't teach us how to be dominant or submissive or gay. It teaches us how to be heterosexual vanillas, and if we don't fit that mold, we have to go elsewhere.  I believe it is important to take someone at their word. If they say they are dominant or submissive, they very likely are, and we can provide that community that supports and welcomes them, and educates them on how to be who they are in a safe and responsible manner.

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

Post #: 22

RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/21/2006 8:13:01 AM

yourMissTress

Posts: 1665
Joined: 6/14/2005
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elegant

Completly made-up, imaginary, fabricated, fictitious, pretend scenarios

quote:

I am a tennis player. I am entering a tennis tournament next month. Can someone tell me how to play tennis?

quote:

I am a Gorean kijara. My boyfriend is Gorean. Can someone tell me where I can learn about Gorean ways?

quote:

I am a doctor and my partner is a nurse. I was interested if any doctors out there could give me advise on being a doctor, where we go to get medical knowledge and how to treat patients. I have my personal ideas and ways of doing things but advise is always appreciated.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I see scenarios such as these happen in D/s~S/m. Someone claims to be a ‘Master’ or a ‘Dominant’ or a ‘slave’ or a ‘subbie’ (Shudders at the use of that word) yet they have just found out about kink/BDSM/alternative lifestyle/whatever. Why do people jump into such situations without knowledge or research? How does someone make such claims without knowing what they entail?

I bought a new horse pull cart. I don’t have a horse.

I think I understand what you are saying, Elegant. You aren't talking about the person who says "I have dominant/submissive tendencies in my relationships and would like to learn more about the lifestyle", but the people that give themselves a title and then ask just exactly what that is. Am I on the right track?

_____________________________

Tress

"If you have to tell people that you are a lady, you are not." My Grandmother

(in reply to Elegant)

Post #: 23

RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/22/2006 7:30:23 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

Archer

Now to restate the question, Why is it so many as so quick to lay claim to an identity label before we really have explored what that identity means? Not saying that everyone's findings on what the label means will be the same here, saying that the investiment of time should be something we require of ourselves before we slap that sticker on

There are many identies that we have that are innate. I identify as a White female. I have the label "tall" added in there. These are traits I was born with, they are a part of my identity. I see myself as submissive. I have had the men in my life note this repeatedly, but I identified with this myself as an innate part of who I am, immediately, it just was a natural fit as part of my identity.

I do not know exactly what the gripe is with people finding themselves and their identities, which can change over time. For example I have heard of people that changed orientations after near death experiences, or life changing illnesses. Others want to experiment with other orientations. It does not mean that when they first defined themselves as top or bottom that they did not identify with that role, it just means that they have the desire to perhaps experience other things.

There seems to be a prejudice I have noticed against new dominants that are finding their way into the lifestyle as opposed to submissives. It seems that before one can claim to be a dominant that they have to pass some litmus test of "domly goodness" and submissives don't. It is subtle, but apparent to me when reading the forums.

I think people should define themselves in ways that make them happy. As long as they are not throwing a singletail and claiming expertise in needle play or suspension play, who cares? If they are as honest as they can be with those they play with about their experience it doesn't matter to me what they call themselves. I do not know why it matters so much to others what people do. I respected my Daddy for this reason, he doesn't identify himself as anything, choosing to wear the neutral name tag as opposed to the dominant one whenever he interacts with his local community, and the reason why is because he feels that if someone wants to know what side of the flogger he identifies with they can ask him, additionally he has no emotional involvement in whether people think of him as a top/sir/master/dom. If people think him a top, he does not care, if they think him a bottom, he does not care. We define our dynamic and other people's opinions are really not important. I know how he identifies, he knows how he identifies. Other people have their own way of identifying us....

I just find the terms wannabe fakers pretending to be a little arrogant, someone may pass that judgment on to you, it really doesn't matter does it? As long as you are happy who cares? My identity is many faceted, my Ds relationship and my submissiveness is only one aspect of my identity, and it really changes nothing how other people see me. The only person that matters in the Ds sense of my identity is my Dominant... and I think in some ways we define each other's dominance and submission within our dynamic.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 24

RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/22/2006 2:22:30 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

Julia I agree with you up to a point. But domination does not end with a singletail (not that you said that). People who think they have the means to dominate another can really screw someone up mentally and emotionally if they don't know what they're doing. You can identify somewhat with the tale of my ex husband. What if he were going around calling himself a dom, believing he really was a dom (as opposed to a bully) and taking ownership of someone who didn't know better? One must take great care when dominating another's mind. This is not to say they must graduate from Dom University or anything. Hell, my Master interacts with very few in the "lifestyle" but he has studied the human mind and has spent ample time learning the submissive mind to be ept enough at managing one. I believe it is one thing to say "I am dominant, and learning about it." as opposed to jumping in and immediately starting to direct someone.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 25

RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/22/2006 10:04:29 PM

domiguy

Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline

Just to elaborate a little further...There are obviously some techniques that do require some knowledge....However, Knife play,puppy play. horsey play...the all black leather "uniform," Where do we stop being individuals and start being followers?

To be unique you must escape the wake of those ideas and lives who have preceded you and ride your own wave.

When someone speaks of learning the mind of a sub. or have been trained in the "art" of domination...it seems that possibly that person doesn't have a clear cut idea of his/her true identity.

A better analogy might be music...I can relatively quickly pick up a guitar and learn to play....probably will need some lessons.. In a short while I can probably knock off some other's people's music...I can't write music because that part is not inherent in my mental make up or soul. But lo' and behold I am now a guitarist " A Bloody Rock and Roll God!!! lol....and I can fuck the woman who is drawn to such...All I have done is drawn a painting by connecting the dots. I offer nothing new or unique...I am no more an artist then I would be a dom.

And by learning a craft...say magic... is also a way of learning to deceive or hide my true self, and my training will alow me to trick and manipulate the people I come into contact with in the future.

Just some further thoughts on said issue...sometimes I come off as bigger prick than intended.

Out.

D.G.

p.s. Jesus please protect me from your followers.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 26

RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/22/2006 10:12:50 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

...and yet some people can pick up a guitar and play beautifully, with no lessons at all, unable to read music, unable to understand theory or technique. Go figure.

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 27

RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/22/2006 10:18:12 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Julia I agree with you up to a point. But domination does not end with a singletail (not that you said that). People who think they have the means to dominate another can really screw someone up mentally and emotionally if they don't know what they're doing. You can identify somewhat with the tale of my ex husband. What if he were going around calling himself a dom, believing he really was a dom (as opposed to a bully) and taking ownership of someone who didn't know better? One must take great care when dominating another's mind. This is not to say they must graduate from Dom University or anything. Hell, my Master interacts with very few in the "lifestyle" but he has studied the human mind and has spent ample time learning the submissive mind to be ept enough at managing one. I believe it is one thing to say "I am dominant, and learning about it." as opposed to jumping in and immediately starting to direct someone.

But who are we to say that what one person finds abusive another person needs in their life? The "bully" dom might be perfect for someone

Also, being a submissive does not mean you cannot hurt the dominant partner in a relationship and wound them deeply. The place one has in a D/s dynamic does not necessarily insulate one from emotional or psychological harm if the relationship goes South.

I think that when we start down the path of telling one person they are true and another that they are not based upon our own internal criteria it just leads to assumptions. Assuming things about people that we barely know is probably not a swell idea. At least where I hail from I do not go around labeling people as wannnabes, posers, or fakes.. in fact I rarely think about other people that way.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 28

RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/22/2006 10:23:49 PM

akbarbarian

Posts: 596
Joined: 12/19/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
I think dom/sub/bottom/top/master/slave are orientations just like homosexual/bisexual/heterosexual- NOT personality traits and NOT dependent on being IN a particular relationship. Because of this, I think it's fine to apply a label of such to yourself no matter what specific experience a person has.

It amazes me how few people speak of those as sexual orientations, just as homosexual/bisexual/heterosexual is. Bravo to you for pointing it out.

_____________________________

Out and proud as a dominant male
United we stand!
Also:Not a service top!
Heretic of Gor

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 29

RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/22/2006 10:26:27 PM

akbarbarian

Posts: 596
Joined: 12/19/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: darksdesire
In fact, as a young adult I felt so horrified of my fantasies that I tried to change my sexual nature by fantasizing about "normal" things, but those things simply didn't excite me. Even in vanilla relationships, I've been submissive and eager to serve and please. I worked very hard at trying to alter my sexual interests and my submissive personality, all to no avail. It took me years to understand that I could no more change my submissive nature than I could change my eye color.

I have done the exact same thing and it doesn't work. It can be hard, being different like this. But we have to play the hand we were dealt and make the most of it.

_____________________________

Out and proud as a dominant male
United we stand!
Also:Not a service top!
Heretic of Gor

(in reply to darksdesire)

Post #: 30

RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/22/2006 11:21:25 PM

domiguy

Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline

Exactly! owned girl...Who would you rather be? the person that had to be "taught"...or the one who had to learn through substantial observation the intricacies of the sub mind..before it was felt it was proper to manage one?..sounds a bit manipulative...not bashing your dom...I would always prefer to be the one who could just pick up and play...because it was inherent in their make up.

Not saying that one cannot still be dominate and receive "training" or someone feels that observation is key to them being able to take control or "manage" someone....

I just think for many out here they could just pick up and play. It was more or less in their DNA.

out.

D.G.

p.s. Jesus please protect me from your followers.

(in reply to akbarbarian)

Post #: 31

RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/22/2006 11:36:36 PM

Archer

Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline

All the talent in the world can be wasted away though without some honing that can be acomplished faster with some coaching.
How many times have we seen wasted talent or somone who thinks that natural talent alone is all they need in any number of sports, arts or sciences. Certainly natural talent is something that must be present to an extent, but the great artists tend to have learned what the rules were before they broke them and started out down a new path, they took their raw talent and honed it through learning the rules of their art as they stood at the time. Then they broke free of them not the other way around.

In fact that is something the Dahli Lama mentioned in his millenium advisements on living life.

"Know what the rules are before you start breaking them"

I don't think anyone here was even hinting that it needs to be some long drawn out mentorship spanning years. Most of what I'm seeing are those saying if you are new and have the desire and talent take some time to have some conversations with those who have walked that path a few times it may help you avoid some pitfalls that you don't know are there. Take that natural talent and the desire to forge a new path designed for yourself, but don't ignore the warnings of the ones who have walked that path before you either.

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 32

RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/22/2006 11:48:33 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
I think dom/sub/bottom/top/master/slave are orientations just like homosexual/bisexual/heterosexual- NOT personality traits and NOT dependent on being IN a particular relationship. Because of this, I think it's fine to apply a label of such to yourself no matter what specific experience a person has.

It amazes me how few people speak of those as sexual orientations, just as homosexual/bisexual/heterosexual is. Bravo to you for pointing it out.

I do not consider being a slave a sexual orientation. He could choose to never allow me sex again and I would continue submitting to him in all the other ways I do now.

(in reply to akbarbarian)

Post #: 33

RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/22/2006 11:53:10 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Exactly! owned girl...Who would you rather be? the person that had to be "taught"...or the one who had to learn through substantial observation the intricacies of the sub mind..before it was felt it was proper to manage one?..sounds a bit manipulative...not bashing your dom...I would always prefer to be the one who could just pick up and play...because it was inherent in their make up.

Not saying that one cannot still be dominate and receive "training" or someone feels that observation is key to them being able to take control or "manage" someone....

I just think for many out here they could just pick up and play. It was more or less in their DNA.

out.

D.G.

p.s. Jesus please protect me from your followers.

I think you may have misunderstood something. My Master learned the submissive mind through his experiences with submissives over the years, not by studying out of a book, nor by receiving "dom training" and not by observing other doms with their subs, etc. And yes, he is very manipulative; he manipulates my mind all the time and I am grateful for it! I would much rather he know what he was doing than if he just started out trying to reshape my thinking without a clue, eh? Being dominant is very much in his DNA, but learning what works and what doesn't is not something your mind is equipped with out of the womb.

I appreciate your thoughts and I do not think you were bashing my Master. If you bashed him that would be rather silly since you do not know him :) He has been a genious at the way he has turned me around.

< Message edited by ownedgirlie -- 12/23/2006 12:01:14 AM >

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 34

RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/22/2006 11:58:53 PM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
But who are we to say that what one person finds abusive another person needs in their life? The "bully" dom might be perfect for someone

Well two psychologists and a priest have urged him to admit himself to in patient psychiatric care, so I don't think that particular bully is perfect for anyone right now. I agree with you that an outsider's peception can very well be wrong. I have been the recipient of false perception myself. But I do think that people do conjur up opinions and ideas about others all the time - not just in this way of life but in all aspects of life. I think it's human nature to do that. I don't necessarily agree with it, but am I going to label the labelers? lol. It's only when people start acting on assumptions and interfering when they can start to cause trouble.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 35

RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/23/2006 12:07:17 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
I think dom/sub/bottom/top/master/slave are orientations just like homosexual/bisexual/heterosexual- NOT personality traits and NOT dependent on being IN a particular relationship. Because of this, I think it's fine to apply a label of such to yourself no matter what specific experience a person has.

It amazes me how few people speak of those as sexual orientations, just as homosexual/bisexual/heterosexual is. Bravo to you for pointing it out.

I do not consider being a slave a sexual orientation. He could choose to never allow me sex again and I would continue submitting to him in all the other ways I do now.

I agree- to me they are relationship orientations. I simply use the sexual orientations to illuminate the same aspects found in each and that I consider it to be an innate orientation, not a trait or skill.

But I'll still take the kudos.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 36

RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/23/2006 3:12:43 AM

Mstr2you

Posts: 45
Joined: 11/12/2006
Status: offline

quote:

I think dom/sub/bottom/top/master/slave are orientations just like homosexual/bisexual/heterosexual- NOT personality traits and NOT dependent on being IN a particular relationship. Because of this, I think it's fine to apply a label of such to yourself no matter what specific experience a person has.

I have to disagree here.

One is born with a sexual orientation, it is there identity. I am not going to get into the nature nurture thing but I think we can safely say that a good part of our sexual orientation is innate, hard to change.

In opposition to that I think one can easily play at being a dominant or a submissive, design onself to become those things to fit the occasion, label themselves and grow into the role.

I understand there are those who do think that they were born to be dom/sub/bottom/top/master/slave and that very well may be true, but in my opinion it is far more likely that people are born with dominant and submissive tendencies and than grow into those roles than that it is an orientation comparible to ones sexual identity.

I don't know of anyone choosing to become a homosexual but I do know of people choosing to become dom/sub. They may be deceiving others and of course themselves as well, but they are out there.

_____________________________

" I want to live where soul meets body"

Death Cab For Cutie

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 37

RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/23/2006 4:48:19 AM

adaddysgirl

Posts: 1093
Joined: 3/2/2004
From: Syracuse, NY
Status: offline

Elegant,

i haven't had too much of a problem with someone identifying as a dom or sub. i see many say that they felt that way (one way or the other) since they were young...or since they 'could remember'. And when they found out there was a name for it, they applied it.

But what i had a hard time grasping was a young person (like an 18 year old) using the title 'Master'. Why? Because i feel that a Master is one who owns another and along with that comes responsibilities for that other persons life and well being. In most cases, an 18 year old is just graduating from high school, may still live home with his parents, and is just beginning the road to managing his own life, let alone another's.

Granted, this can be found in older guys as well. One dom i met was 50 and had been in a 25 year strictly vanilla marriage. Upon his divorce, he got online and through a chat room, he collared a sub. Upon their meeting some months later, things did not work out so the collar was removed. After all that, he referred to himself as a Master. To me, that was pretty absurd.

But....since being on these boards, i have realized something. It really doesn't matter what makes sense anymore....it all seems to solely rest on what one wants to refer to themselves as...period. And it seems no amount of debate is going to change that.

Sometimes i would challenge how one earned the Master title when they came on here and were extremely young, but i never received an answer. On the other side, when a dom would contact me and call himself Master, i would also ask him what experience he had as a Master.....really trying to get a feel for what experience he had actually dominating another.....and again i would not get replies back.

So when i see an 18 year old come on proclaiming he is a Master, i just try to take it with a grain of salt and let it go. If that's what he's going to call himself, i obviously am not going to change that, so why bother? The title Master is a dime a dozen these days....it no longer seems to imply some level of ownership, training, expertise, whatever.

And as i always say....just go on the other side and put the word Master in the search box. You will get so many hits that they get cut off. Then look at how many of them own another...or have owned another. i think you'll find that most do not, nor have not.

Now one who states he is a dom (as in a dominant personality) and is looking for a sub....now that i can see. i mean, we all have to start somewhere. But starting out as a Master just doesn't cut it to me.

Daddysgirl

(in reply to Elegant)

Post #: 38

RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/23/2006 5:00:26 AM

sublizzie

Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Exactly! owned girl...Who would you rather be? the person that had to be "taught"...or the one who had to learn through substantial observation the intricacies of the sub mind..before it was felt it was proper to manage one?..sounds a bit manipulative...not bashing your dom...I would always prefer to be the one who could just pick up and play...because it was inherent in their make up.

While this wasn't addressed to me I'm going to comment anyway. It is in inherent in my genes to be able to cook well. Some people would argue that cooking is a learned thing and not a genetic one, but they don't know my family. However, there is a big difference between being able to cook well and being an experienced chef. If I were to choose to have a big, fancy, sit-down dinner catered for a major political leader I would prefer to have someone who has studied their craft and been given the highest ranking I could afford. Someone who is a "certified" chef or, if I could afford one, a "master chef". Because they would know, not only how to plan the menu, cook it, and serve it, but also how to avert disasters or deal with a disaster when it happens. They will have learned through schooling, apprenticeships, and lots of hands-on experience. I could probably pull off that kind of dinner party, but a Master Chef is going to do it with fewer mishaps and less ulcers.

(in reply to domiguy)

Post #: 39

RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/23/2006 7:27:21 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
I think dom/sub/bottom/top/master/slave are orientations just like homosexual/bisexual/heterosexual- NOT personality traits and NOT dependent on being IN a particular relationship. Because of this, I think it's fine to apply a label of such to yourself no matter what specific experience a person has.

It amazes me how few people speak of those as sexual orientations, just as homosexual/bisexual/heterosexual is. Bravo to you for pointing it out.

I do not consider being a slave a sexual orientation. He could choose to never allow me sex again and I would continue submitting to him in all the other ways I do now.

You see I do not see being gay as just a sexual orientation, but a way people live their entire lives. In other words I believe our sexual orientations are so deep they impact many life choices. A person that is gay could be celibate their entire life for whatever reason and would still be gay. A gay person is not just with someone of the same sex for sex, it is about whom they feel a romantic tie to that they can build a life with just like being hetrosexual. To me submissiveness is very much like this, it is about who I can comfortably build a life with, not just who I have sex with. I hope that makes sense.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 12/23/2006 7:29:20 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 40

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