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Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/20/2006 12:16:08 PM   
Elegant


Posts: 1024
Joined: 3/15/2005
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Completly made-up, imaginary, fabricated, fictitious, pretend scenarios
 
quote:

I am a tennis player. I am entering a tennis tournament next month. Can someone tell me how to play tennis?
 
quote:

I am a Gorean kijara. My boyfriend is Gorean. Can someone tell me where I can learn about Gorean ways?
 
quote:

I am a doctor and my partner is a nurse. I was interested if any doctors out there could give me advise on being a doctor, where we go to get medical knowledge and how to treat patients. I have my personal ideas and ways of doing things but advise is always appreciated.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I see scenarios such as these happen in D/s~S/m. Someone claims to be a ‘Master’ or a ‘Dominant’ or a ‘slave’ or a ‘subbie’ (Shudders at the use of that word) yet they have just found out about kink/BDSM/alternative lifestyle/whatever.  Why do people jump into such situations without knowledge or research? How does someone make such claims without knowing what they entail?


  I bought a new horse pull cart. I don’t have a horse.

_____________________________

Elegant
~Slave To Master Archer

http://www.FantasiesInLeather.com
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RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/20/2006 12:22:20 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Another example:  Me, at age 8, trying to kiss a girl because I thought she was cute.

Me, at age 16, learning the word bisexual and calling myself such. 

Me, at age 19, still never BEEN with a woman, getting told every day that I can't KNOW I am a bisexual because I've never yet BEEN with a woman.

Me, at age 26, been with a few dozen women, living with two men, and consider myself bisexual.

I think we can KNOW what relationships we are oriented towards no matter what actual life experience we have.  Now, our illusions about what we THINK those relationships will entail and whether they will work out or not might change.  But that doesn't deny the truth of knowing that I am attracted to X type relationship.

And since we have labels that go along with those orientations, I think it makes sense to apply those labels to ourselves, despite not having actual experience.  We can (and I have) change the labels as time goes on and find that they no longer apply as before.

What doesn't make sense is rushing into a relationship.  No matter what label or identity you may have, rushing into things you've just experienced is really just not a great idea.  Not that it will stop anyone, it didn't stop me.

I think dom/sub/bottom/top/master/slave are orientations just like homosexual/bisexual/heterosexual- NOT personality traits and NOT dependent on being IN a particular relationship.  Because of this, I think it's fine to apply a label of such to yourself no matter what specific experience a person has. 

Something like "gorean" or "master at whips" or "great at blow jobs" however, is something that is education and experience related.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/20/2006 12:22:32 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline 		Nice points, not sure if I can add anything to them

Well perhaps in the Dr scenario, Dr's are always practicing hehe (scary huh)

_____________________________

Freedom in Bondage

Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

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RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/20/2006 12:42:44 PM   
BDSM05478


Posts: 417
Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline 		Biggest mistake I see all the time and was guilty of myself .

"I'll do anything you want me to."
What I did not consider before this relationship is that Daddy has a waaaaay better imagination than I had and a few more years under his belt practising them. Luck for me I'll try anything once lol Never agree to do anything without knowing what it is your agreeing too

_____________________________

"It's a fool that looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart" U.E. McGill

"Never let the future disturb you. You will meet it, if you have to, with the same weapons of reason which today arm you against the present." - Marcus Aurelius

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RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/20/2006 12:46:30 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		There is a difference between being a tennis player and being an expert tennis player. One can be a tennis player and not a professional tennis player. I do not see why someone has to have been in this lifestyle for umpteenth years to understand themselves and what they want from it.

A woman has been married for 24 years, divorces because there is no attraction to her hubby, discovers she is a lesbian.. was she always a lesbian and just realized it after her divorce? Just because you do not have the name for what you are does not mean that you are not that thing. I have always been submissively inclined in my relationships, now I have the name for that. I did not need 10 years experience submitting to someone to know what I am, I knew the moment I found out about submissiveness as a lifestyle what I identified with because I was doing it all along.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/20/2006 12:58:47 PM   
Devilslilsister


Posts: 1262
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline 		Well i only for sure call myself wierd and i have years of experience with that.  My Master on the other hand calls me alot of things.  One of the things he calls me is a "collared slave", whether i agree with the label as slave when applied to myself does not change a thing.  I entered a M/s relationship with the dynamic of "slave" and thats where i'll stay put.  Whether i personally label myself a slave or not, doesnt matter as i am a collared slave. 

I also randomly call myself heterosexual, but again to be technical - i am bi sexual.  I've also been known to call myself a purple elephant on these boards.  Which is perfectly fine around here, because i AM a purple elephant in my own brain.  And labels only mean what - you - personally - want - them - to - mean

I'm also very good at playing doctor and at times - i am called "doctor" 


_____________________________

My ability to cope with BS is at an all time low - me

i may look like i'm doing nothing, but i'm very busy at a cellular level

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RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/20/2006 1:11:49 PM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline 		its the law of attraction...if something is attractive to you you start going tward it,...be it sexually, career wise, the breed of dog you buy...ect...
 
what we are attracted to, ultimatly defines our destiny...
 
in my humble opinion of course.
 
 



_____________________________


Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."




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RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/20/2006 1:47:10 PM   
Elegant


Posts: 1024
Joined: 3/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

There is a difference between being a tennis player and being an expert tennis player. One can be a tennis player and not a professional tennis player.


ahh..but in the completly made-up, imaginary, fabricated, fictitious, pretend scenario the person called himself a tennis player but needed someone to tell him how to play tennis....grin

_____________________________

Elegant
~Slave To Master Archer

http://www.FantasiesInLeather.com

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RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/20/2006 1:48:32 PM   
Elegant


Posts: 1024
Joined: 3/15/2005
Status: offline 		Well thought out and clear comments from most....thanks!

_____________________________

Elegant
~Slave To Master Archer

http://www.FantasiesInLeather.com

(in reply to Elegant)
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RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/20/2006 2:04:16 PM   
liljoy


Posts: 577
Joined: 3/25/2004
Status: offline 		Oops

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RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/20/2006 4:14:19 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elegant

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

There is a difference between being a tennis player and being an expert tennis player. One can be a tennis player and not a professional tennis player.


ahh..but in the completly made-up, imaginary, fabricated, fictitious, pretend scenario the person called himself a tennis player but needed someone to tell him how to play tennis....grin



So your master needs someone to mentor him in dominating you, does that mean he cannot be a dominant person? Who draws the line at what one needs to learn as opposed to a person's innate nature? I guess this all comes down to if one feels a person needs to "learn" how to be themselves, and I do not think they do.. either you are what you say you are, or not. And frankly, I am no one to tell another person who they are intrinsically, others think they can, fine, but like crouchingtigress said:

quote:

its the law of attraction...if something is attractive to you you start going tward it,...be it sexually, career wise, the breed of dog you buy...ect...
 
what we are attracted to, ultimatly defines our destiny...
 
in my humble opinion of course.

 
It is not others who define us, it is we who define ourselves, and if we are lucky we change and grow and become more than we were yesterday. I am just not wise enough to think I can define other people, they do a much better job creating their lives than I do

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Elegant)
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RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/20/2006 5:18:39 PM   
Elegant


Posts: 1024
Joined: 3/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elegant

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

There is a difference between being a tennis player and being an expert tennis player. One can be a tennis player and not a professional tennis player.


ahh..but in the completly made-up, imaginary, fabricated, fictitious, pretend scenario the person called himself a tennis player but needed someone to tell him how to play tennis....grin



So your master needs someone to mentor him in dominating you, does that mean he cannot be a dominant person? Who draws the line at what one needs to learn as opposed to a person's innate nature? I guess this all comes down to if one feels a person needs to "learn" how to be themselves, and I do not think they do.. either you are what you say you are, or not. And frankly, I am no one to tell another person who they are intrinsically, others think they can, fine, ..........


It appears you do not understand the point I was conveying in my last thread. Ah well, that doesn't worry me.

Thanks for your imput.


_____________________________

Elegant
~Slave To Master Archer

http://www.FantasiesInLeather.com

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RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/20/2006 6:08:12 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		Here we go again...Let me step on some toes...How dare you suggest that there is some sort of knowledge that has to be gained or gleaned before someone refers to themselves as dom...sub...or whatever. I have never read any of the Gor books....I never plan on attending a munch....I don't give a fuck about the SCA or renaisance faires (although I'm sure they are lovely). I don't need to visit a dungeon or club.  I remember how to tie a handful of knots from my Scout and sailing days and they shall suffice. I certainly don't need anyone's advice on how I should treat the woman in my life; Or anyone elses interpretation of what the word sub/dom etc. should mean as if there were a specific deffinition that applies to all....All I need is to know is what are my wants,desires and and what are my true innerself's  needs; and to be able to convey those things accurately and honestly as possible to my partner and to establish that there is a connection.(hopefully on many levels)

I am me. I didn't look for  this, it was always in me. I didn't come to this through abuse,porn, or literature...there were never any external forces that lead me to this. This is not a way to get a quick lay, or escape reality. And anything you could tell me on this subject would be paramount to explaining  to another how to blink or breathe.

Good Day, Sir!....I said Good Day!      -Gene Wilder.. Charlie and the chocolate factory

out.

D.G.

p.s. Jesus please protect me from your followers.

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RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/20/2006 6:11:32 PM   
MaryT


Posts: 553
Joined: 12/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

And anything you could tell me on this subject would be paramount to explaining  to another how to blink or breathe.


Why do you bother reading here then?

MaryT

(in reply to domiguy)
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RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/20/2006 6:14:56 PM   
slavemaia


Posts: 395
Joined: 8/26/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elegant



Completly made-up, imaginary, fabricated, fictitious, pretend scenarios
quote:

I am a tennis player. I am entering a tennis tournament next month. Can someone tell me how to play tennis?
 
quote:

I am a Gorean kijara. My boyfriend is Gorean. Can someone tell me where I can learn about Gorean ways?
 
quote:

I am a doctor and my partner is a nurse. I was interested if any doctors out there could give me advise on being a doctor, where we go to get medical knowledge and how to treat patients. I have my personal ideas and ways of doing things but advise is always appreciated.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I see scenarios such as these happen in D/s~S/m. Someone claims to be a ‘Master’ or a ‘Dominant’ or a ‘slave’ or a ‘subbie’ (Shudders at the use of that word) yet they have just found out about kink/BDSM/alternative lifestyle/whatever.  Why do people jump into such situations without knowledge or research? How does someone make such claims without knowing what they entail?


I bought a new horse pull cart. I don’t have a horse.


i believe it's because it's how W/we learn. i've never really learned a damn thing from reading about it or listening to someone else's ideas about it. i always have to jump in and do it for myself because it's the ONLY way i can find out what it's like for ME.

_____________________________


She reaches up, not for the apple, but for what causes it to be there.
slave to love - - Chairman's maia

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RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/20/2006 6:43:58 PM   
Elegant


Posts: 1024
Joined: 3/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MaryT

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

And anything you could tell me on this subject would be paramount to explaining  to another how to blink or breathe.


Why do you bother reading here then?

MaryT



Good question.


_____________________________

Elegant
~Slave To Master Archer

http://www.FantasiesInLeather.com

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RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/20/2006 9:22:00 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Having a little extra insight into the OP than any of you could have LOL (9 Years owning her), let me try to put the question another way. While someone may have an interest, may have an inclination the identity requires some time actively participating.
I may like tennis as a spectator and I can buy a racquet, and some yellow balls and step out onto a court, that doesn't make me a tenis player., time practicing learning, reading maybe even some lessons and then I would not be jumping the gun to call myself one. (how good a tenis player would be another matter entirely) There is a difference between having an inclination towards something and being able to identify as that.

Now to restate the question, Why is it so many as so quick to lay claim to an identity label before we really have explored what that identity means? Not saying that everyone's findings on what the label means will be the same here, saying that the investiment of time should be something we require of ourselves before we slap that sticker on.





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RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/20/2006 9:38:46 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
Now to restate the question, Why is it so many as so quick to lay claim to an identity label before we really have explored what that identity means? Not saying that everyone's findings on what the label means will be the same here, saying that the investiment of time should be something we require of ourselves before we slap that sticker on.

People enter into sub culture(s) because they do not feel they fit well into mainstream culture.  They are hungry to "belong" somewhere, to finally find the hole for their peg.  They want to be their unique snowflake and yet also feel a sense of belonging, of community.

When they feel something resonates- they grab it.  Sometimes they end up bouncing around grabbing onto new things, rejecting new things, grabbing back onto old things, grabbing BACK onto new things for years...and sometimes they simply flow through it all and change as time goes by.

IMO the tennis player analogy is flawed and not applicable when it comes to the label of personal relationship orientation. 

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/21/2006 5:27:08 AM   
LordODiscipline


Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		1st - (because I am trying to be a nicer poster by saying everything I think, rather than just writing about the things that irritate me - and, 'they are legion')
 
Elegant...
 
Interesting thread... the voyuer in me is looking forward to more responses to see where it goes - although it is getting directionality already.

But as an aside to this whole thing - as I knew it would come up in this thread if I just waited long enough - 

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
It is not others who define us, it is we who define ourselves...


Juliana - this is not aimed directly at you (I like and respect much of what you write) - just everyone who repeats this mantra of cyber space without real consideration
 
I see this stated often on chat boards as if it were an 'immutable' truth.
 
The fact is, we may (may - although this very seldom even partially true) 'define ourself' - but, that definition is based on our and other's opinions, statements, and views of who we are and how society percieves people of our "stripe".
 
No one lives in a vacuum and the belief that we are not influenced by others in this process is really incorrect.
 
And, please - let's not say: "Well 'YES', but we are not AS defined by others as we are by ourselves..." ....as that is an exceptionally rare situation in the world  (even among people who say that they believe this as a fact).
 
~J
 
Who will await the inevitable chauvanistic: "Well... maybe you are defined by others that way, but I am not!"

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

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RE: Jump Right In..the water is unknown - 12/21/2006 5:38:01 AM   
LordODiscipline


Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
Now to restate the question, Why is it so many as so quick to lay claim to an identity label before we really have explored what that identity means? Not saying that everyone's findings on what the label means will be the same here, saying that the investiment of time should be something we require of ourselves before we slap that sticker on.


Pride
 
ego
 
the desire to be something and knowing that our contemporarys might balk at it
 
unknown or ill defined definition of the word associated with it (master, dominant, etc)
 
How many young men declare themselves 'a man' well before the adults in their lives would?
 
How many young women seek out 'the secrets' of adulthood prior to the time they "should" per the people whom they would call their contemporaries?
 
When I was about 7 years old, I was the worst hockey goalie in the world - no experience - no movement on the ice with the equipment provided - I could not even see out of the freaking mask and stopped the puck with it rather than a glove...
 
But, after the first pickup game, I told everyone I was The Goalie for the kids I played with.
 
They basically agreed in order to shut me the freak up *if you have not noticed, I tend to be talkative when I think there is somethign I should say*.
 
We are creatures of desire and when we first seek to belong to groups (as an association to that group, or as a member of that group) our contemporaries tend to be more experienced - but, that does not stop someone from saying they "belong to it" and adapting the terminology of it...
 
A buck recruit US marine might consider himself a Marine.... but, I am willing to bet his DI would disagree.
 
Anyhow - just some observations on human nature from an outsider. ;)
 
~J

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to Archer)
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