RE: Submission w/right n wrong

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CreativeDominant -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/15/2006 7:52:09 AM)
As has been noted before, in the long run, it comes down to what feels right between you and your dominant. If he has no problem with you endlessly debating what he says, then that is the choice he has made for him, for you, and for the relationship. You do sound worried though about having what you call the "I'm always right" syndrome running through you and about it becoming a problem. If you're worried that it could, then you must know that, on some level and in some instances, you are irritating your dominant. All I can give you is my own viewpoint. It isn't the only way but it is what I have discovered works for me. I have no problem with a submissive who wants to discuss any matter at all re: the outside world and interests. I love to discuss things and I sometimes welcome opposing viewpoints. However, I would not choose someone who is diametrically opposed to everything I believe in. The energy drain from the debates over these topics is too much for me anymore and, in my opinion, toxic to the rest of the relationship. I also would not choose to be with someone who thought "I am always right". If they are always right, then my arguments will go nowhere with them...instead they will be deflected with their viewpoint and an attempt to show me how "wrong" I am. Been there...done that...got the scars to show for it. Another view here: it has been noted on here...and I agree with it...that respect and grace and tact go a long way during an argument/debate/discussion. While that is true, in the case of dealing with someone who is "always right", in the long run what difference would it make? There is no chance of the argument ending (or ending satisfactorily) because they are "always right". That covers the vanilla bases. Now, getting down to the D/s and BDSM side of things. One of the reasons that I fill out my loves/likes/dislikes part of the BDSM profiles is because I want people to know my interests/disinterests in these areas. One reason I discuss D/s along with other topics with people I am becoming acquainted with is to give them an idea where I am coming from and gain an idea of where they are coming from. Again, while I understand that sometimes our viewpoints will conflict and I welcome a gracefully, tactfully, respectfully stated disagreement, I would not choose someone that I felt was always going to disagree with me, let alone someone who always felt "they are right" in their disagreement. I am of the belief that one of the facets of submission means "yielding of your will to the control of another" and that one of the facets of dominance is "accepting control of the will of another". Were someone to constantly disagree with my aim and intent in dominating them, then it sort of undermines that whole view of dominance and submission, does it not? To me, it also implies...no matter how gracefully, respectfully, and tactfully stated...a mistrust of my knowledge and capability to lead. I am NOT stating that they are not submissive so please, anyone who feels their hackles go up at the above, do not jump on me and state that I am. I am stating that their style of submission does not match up to my style of dominance. At the age I have managed to reach and through all that I have tried to learn about life and about this life (wiitwd), I have learned that this is what works for me.

thetammyjo -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/15/2006 7:52:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister With my Dom its abit more difficult. i technically "know" i should not go about debating with him. I should just purely submit. Asking me to submit to something i find "wrong" is past tough. For example baby names. He thinks i shouldnt ask other's opionons on names. i think it gives me a broader view on things and ultimately helps me make the "right" decision. So i of course, debated. <smiles> Or - He's threatening to cut me off from tv/the net/ and talking to others about pregnancy. He thinks it stresses me out (which it does) and i think it educates me. Education is good. Logically we're both right. Yet, i think that its good to be prepared. Therefore.... <grins> i'm right. I do tend to "listen" over time - its not a conscious decision. I just tend to fall towards his way.. like i've stopped asking others about baby names and i'm not so into learning all about pregnancy. So in the end, i technically do submit. Which really isnt the issue. i just do not know how to "think" you are WAY off your mark - and then follow along. How do you do that?? I know submission isnt about being right or about agreeing nor liking things. Its about submitting to anothers will. Do you follow along and shrug thinking "hey i hope this turns out for the best?" It's only inappropriate to question your dom/owner if you have agreed to not do so when you negotiated things (in my opinion). If you then break your agreement, how can that other person then trust you? You can work on this together but you have to be willing to change if he and you desire it. Not sure how you'd change because I haven't had a sub or slave who challenged my authority in these ways.

akisha -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/15/2006 7:53:07 AM)
There is a difference between debating and being hard headed and refusing to listen to other peoples views. I dated a guy that had to always be right, and no matter what anyone said or could prove he still maintained that he was right. IT was extremely tiresome and annoying. The saddest part is he made himself look stupid more often then not. A true debate is when you give your best to prove your point but you have to be open to listening and conceding if the other persons point actually makes more sense. Whether you agree or not, you need to know when to just let it go. The best lesson to learn is to agree to disagree. When you are disagreeing with your Dominant, whether you are right or wrong really has no bearing. It's what he wants that matters and that is all. Debating or arguing, whatever, is not wrong until He or She says enough. Standing and screaming at the top of you voice that you are right no matter what, has a tendancy to just make you look childish and unreasonable. People will start to just walk away or move on, or just plain ignore you when you enter a discussion. One of the hard and fast rules in my house growing up was unless you have something intelligent to say, stay quiet. ( this was if i wanted to hang around with the adults, which i did 90% of the time) As we grow, mature and learn, people tend to mellow and realize being right all the time really isn't that important. You actualy learn more by sitting back, watching and listening before jumping in. By doing this you also learn how those you are talking to think and can figure out a easier and more productive way to prove your point or atleast convey it in a manner in which they are receptive to.

lighthearted -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/15/2006 8:44:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister i just do not know how to "think" you are WAY off your mark - and then follow along. How do you do that?? I know submission isnt about being right or about agreeing nor liking things. Its about submitting to anothers will. Do you follow along and shrug thinking "hey i hope this turns out for the best?" try taking your thought process one step further...ok, sure you think he's way off the mark, but remember, he is your Dom and you trust him to know what is right for the both of you. it seems like you currently don't trust him to make the correct decision or do the right thing, therefore you feel you need to take control of the situation, and in order to do that, you are debating his choices. my explanation is a bit simplistic, I realize, but I think I'm still conveying the basic point adequately.

Devilslilsister -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/15/2006 10:34:37 AM)
quote: If you do go into a "debate" or discussion with a fixed view that you are not prepared to change because you know you are right, then is there really any point in talking to anyone about it I actually said this Not that i mind being "proven" wrong. Just prove it and well i'm wrong. No biggie. i have no problem being proven wrong or being wrong. My older brother i am finding, debates just like me - he'll beat a dead horse until one of us see's the light of day. Not that i was overly swayed by his argument on nature vs nuture! My father on the other hand i will absolutetly NOT debate. He comes from more experience, more intelligence and so on. Never felt a need to debate with him. That would be like coming to a fight unarmed and he is 98% of the time always right.

Devilslilsister -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/15/2006 10:43:06 AM)
quote: The secret is already revealed: it's not what you say, but how you say it. I don't take her opinions as a personal attack, she doesn't take mine as a threat. Yay me! I do try and do that, especially with my Dom. I understand how he "hears" things and i try to say things in a way that he will hear them as i mean them. I try and follow all the codes of how to talk to other people. No "you's", personal attacks, insults, ect. I will say i am terrible at that with my mother.

Devilslilsister -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/15/2006 11:06:58 AM)
quote: If He enjoys a debate whenever.. or at only specific times or never... it is He who decides what best for him.... She either accepts it or doesn't... if she doesn't well... she in for a rocky road. so you are saying that since He has never made a mention of it to me. Other then notify me when a conversation is over - i shouldnt worry about it? He's never made mention of it - just something that occured to me last night while i was trying to sleep. So YOUR point would be to just ask Him what he thinks eh? <smilez> What i was looking for here, would be solutions to stop doing it as i didnt see it as "appropriate" BUT i guess it doesnt really matter if i think it is or not. It would be kind of silly to arm myself with ways to stop - then ask him and have him tell me "he doesnt mind". Flip side though, is if he does mind (and oddly never brought it up) i would be prepared!

Wildfleurs -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/15/2006 11:15:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister i just do not know how to "think" you are WAY off your mark - and then follow along. How do you do that?? I know submission isnt about being right or about agreeing nor liking things. Its about submitting to anothers will. Do you follow along and shrug thinking "hey i hope this turns out for the best?" Basically what was key for me was trying to let go of the need to be right. I come from a family where we debate and argue about things (anything from who ate the last donut to the state of the economy) with a lot of vigor and then five minutes later we forget what we argued about and talk about something else. My owner is a fairly vigorous debater but tends to hold onto things longer so its always a balance for me of doing the lively debate he enjoys but making sure its not overly vigorous, and a lot of what has helped for me has been letting go of the need to be and prove that I'm right. C~

Devilslilsister -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/15/2006 11:19:11 AM)
It is not that i have anything to "prove" I am just honestly "correcting" other people that directly affect me. I try and correct things that have a consequence upon my life. For my examples - baby names and what we choose - has a direct effect on my life. Edcuation about pregnancy complications - directly effects my life. I do not usually solicite unwanted advice. I dont think it has anything do to with validation or insecurity. I think that i might be abit too secure in what i think. I have a high IQ and i was always told growing up that i am "extremely intelligent". I do not need some one to agree with me. My problem comes when they want me to do something i find is not right quote: My dominant enjoys it as we come from very different backgrounds and often I provide an entirely view on things that he hasn't considered before I think that is why i debate with my Dominant. We come from grossly different back grounds. If he spoke to me about calculus, i would not debate. If he speaks of what i should wear to a formal event - i debate. (if i think he's wrong) The debates are aside from orders. Things we just naturally talk about. Usually centered around personal thoughts on things and often times when he "suggests" something quote: even if you feel your always right, at least give them the impression your thinking about their opiniions i do = ) But i usually know my standing with the person i am debating with - what degree of knowledge we bring to the table about said subject. I would not debate with 95% of the regulars here about M/s D/s or bdsm. I know that most of them have more experience, maturity and intelligence about it then i. Arg - there is so much here its hard to respond to it all. No where did i say i "always" disagree with him. I simply (or complicatedly) said "when i feel he is wrong, i have issues obeying" Master and i tend to complement each other. He can spell - i cant. I ask him how to spell words all the time. I've been a parent for 5 years, he is just becoming one. I would say that it has nothing to do with lack of trust or thinking he is incapable. As i'm sure he is very capable. I just see a better way and i notify him that i SEE the better way. i am tired - and i am not in my best thinking state, so i should probably not be trying to put my words into a clearer form so others can understand what i am trying to say. I am probably making it more gobble guk. (its all running together for me at the mo) I do appreciate everyones responses very much and will even if i think some of you misunderstoond me, i will still take into account what you said while i ponder this further in my own. Thank you all

agirl -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/15/2006 11:21:37 AM)
Debating something is a far cry from an inner desire to be right.........While I like debating...it's based on a desire to discover something other than what I KNOW and think. (It's pretty difficult to be dead-right about names for a baby!....lol).......though where I live, * Chelsea/Britney/Tracey /Sharon* will pop you in a category that's rather different than* Francesca/Sophia/ Sarah/ Lily. It's also rather difficult to debate/argue* with someone that won't enter into it. If it wasn't up for debate then I'd be told, pretty sharpishly.......So I don't have to worry/bother about it.. I can't see where debating and submitting become an issue. Either you can.....or you can't? agirl

Devilslilsister -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/15/2006 11:32:04 AM)
lol agirl - well i AM right about the baby names. There shouldnt be any rhyming, and if the last letter of most of the names is a vowel.. thats not good.. and if you have a many syllable last name and a many sullable first name.. the middle name should be not many. <grins> A name shouldnt have too many vowels in it period. Plus i would like to have names that are semi traditional, semi unique, pretty and that are just right. And it has to FLOOOW. A name should definetly FLOW. And naming some one is very important! Extremely important and one must get it just right. On top of that you need to look at what initals spell. For Example the intials S.O.B would not be nice.. and nicknames that can come from a name.. plus the meaning of a name is important too. Wouldnt want to name some one and have the name mean "coward". PLUS there are gender specific and gender crossing names.. and blah blah blah. soooooooooo yes you can be right! lololol Master just thinks i'm nuts. I had issues with some of the names he picked out as they violated one of the "naming" rules and i simply went to the naming forums to see what everyone else had to say. I could be wrong! He called it "knocking heads" when it came to baby names, smiling as he was telling another. Luckily, we have come to a girl's name that does not violate the majority of my rules. It has alot of good "key" things with it. It does unfortunetly, bother me on two instances. (nickname and meaning) I am slowly getting over it as he is dead set on the name. The middle name soothes my soul tho. <grins>

Devilslilsister -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/15/2006 11:34:43 AM)
quote: I can't see where debating and submitting become an issue. Either you can.....or you can't? i suppose you are right. I just saw it as unappropriate. Which is why i came here - to find out if i was right or wrong.

agirl -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/15/2006 11:51:11 AM)
Replying to myself here.....lol If ANYONE else but my Master said * Look, I've listened to what you think and have to say about this subject and, despite that, this is what'll happen..............I'd thumb my nose* at them. The only thing that separates HIM from anyone else is that there's little ROOM for debate. However trite it sounds........I may not be looking out of the same window as him but I am certainly looking at the same view. agirl

mbes -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/15/2006 12:25:50 PM)
Me and Mine have had what may be a similar problem for years. If you tell us both to think of a black skirt, we'll come up with vastly different pictures in our minds. They will both be black skirts, and for years we knocked heads trying to convince each other that ours was the "real" black skirt. That's obviously not true, there is no "real" black skirt, and I've come to realize that while I'm welcome to explain what my black skirt looks like, when it comes right down to it, I've already agreed that what he decides is a black skirt is what counts. Now if I have information that he needs (I feel x black skirt is inappropriate in y situation because z), then I'm obligated to share that information. But once he has it, bottom line, I wear whichever black skirt he chooses. Now in the case of baby names. You've explained to him what factors are important to you in choosing a name. You've gone over options. He has chosen one. So the question becomes, do you trust his judgment? If you do, then it's probably time to let it lie. If there are still factors you think he isn't aware of, then you should share them. But if you agreed to follow his rules, and this is what he's decided, then it seems to me that the discussion is over. As for reading up on pregnancy complications, he may have a good point. While it's important to be aware of reasonable risks, if you read everything out there on every risk there is, that could damn well be paralyzing!

agirl -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/15/2006 1:27:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister lol agirl - well i AM right about the baby names. There shouldnt be any rhyming, and if the last letter of most of the names is a vowel.. thats not good.. and if you have a many syllable last name and a many sullable first name.. the middle name should be not many. <grins> A name shouldnt have too many vowels in it period. Plus i would like to have names that are semi traditional, semi unique, pretty and that are just right. And it has to FLOOOW. A name should definetly FLOW. And naming some one is very important! Extremely important and one must get it just right. On top of that you need to look at what initals spell. For Example the intials S.O.B would not be nice.. and nicknames that can come from a name.. plus the meaning of a name is important too. Wouldnt want to name some one and have the name mean "coward". PLUS there are gender specific and gender crossing names.. and blah blah blah. soooooooooo yes you can be right! lololol Master just thinks i'm nuts. I had issues with some of the names he picked out as they violated one of the "naming" rules and i simply went to the naming forums to see what everyone else had to say. I could be wrong! He called it "knocking heads" when it came to baby names, smiling as he was telling another. Luckily, we have come to a girl's name that does not violate the majority of my rules. It has alot of good "key" things with it. It does unfortunetly, bother me on two instances. (nickname and meaning) I am slowly getting over it as he is dead set on the name. The middle name soothes my soul tho. <grins> Nothing is as It's an US thing as naming a baby. Who cares what you name it? You already have a child..Did her name make a difference, apart from superficially??...If this is a hiccup......... wait 'til you're raising it ...TOGETHER! Call it Pumpkin-Pie/Pollyanna/ Pickle-Peach/Whatever.........In seriousness, what you call you child is pretty .....insignificant. agirl

mnottertail -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/15/2006 1:46:55 PM)
In terms of Baby names, I always made the old lady screech out all three names at the top of her lungs, followed by, 'come home right now!', while standing outside on the back steps, if she was unable to put that uncouth sound in there (many of you know the one I am talking about, the one that makes little kids grit their teeth) then it was ok, she could name the kid that.

Devilslilsister -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/15/2006 2:11:00 PM)
LOL i am having abit of a difficulty with the "us" part here. I just spent the past 5 years being a single mother. I'm so used to do "doing it on my own" that i dont know if i can "share". We did come down to a compromise. He picks girl names, i pick boy names. LOL Not that we dont "check" in with each other. He didnt like my orginal first boy name and now i'm literally stuck unsure what to choose. lololololololol - i'm so nervous about doing the raising "together". But i'm sure it'll work out. Personally i dont find names to be insignificant. Its why i didnt name my daughter..... Mary Heaven Leigh Sky (insert last name) <grins> say it real fast - sounds like Mary Heavenly Sky. BUT my father called up after my C section and said "name her something traditional" Took his advice. Nor, no matter how much my Dom likes the thought of naming a daughter Gonareah or Chlamydia we will ever name daughters that. (not that i spelled those right) Nor will we name a boy Sue. You're main point is most likely right.. its more about the "us" then the actual decision. Hey! We're both mostly content with the girls name. (its going to be a boy)

Devilslilsister -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/15/2006 2:14:02 PM)
lol Ron - i suggested he try "hollaring" out the names. I read some where that if you cant hollar a name out across a playground.. dont use it.

Mavis -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/18/2006 7:27:03 AM)
i'm getting the "feel" from your right vs wrongness of a topic, sounds like something i deal with a lot.. pride. It's my biggest issue. i can, like you, be proven wrong, no problem. But to let "bad facts" stand uncorrected hits all my hot buttons.. One submissive friend told me her observations of me in a chat room.. really stinging report. "you correct the Dominants, and act superior to a lot of them." my reply was, "well, if they can't get thier facts straight, i AM superior to a lot of them." Honestly, nothing would be changed in the world by leaving their statements uncorrected, but my pride wouldn't let me just let things pass unchallenged. Master took hold of that trait first off, and attacked it with a vengeance. Online, i was made to observe chats without saying more than simple greets, which nearly killed me.. i had to get used to the idea that what i had to add to the conversations wasn't so important after all. (Damn?? really??) When someone would ask if there was a local meet in town this week, and i knew there was, i couldn't jump in with my info.. when i had the facts right here! NOBOdy else offered, why couldn't i tell? Clearly, my input here was valuable, yes? lol. In reality, that person could probably get the info from google, i wasn't going to be the savior that day. THEN He had me typing with camel-type. That He/she Dom/sub T/they, A/all stuff. Which i have spent years decrying as stupid. All my complaints that it would make me look like a trained monkey fell on deaf ears. i even begged to be relieved of it here on CM, with all sorts of logical arguements that it made reading my posts more difficult, and would effectively cut me out of the discussions for many readers. His reply was "And your input is so valuable that if T/they choose to skip it.. ???" i was also directed to have at least one converation a day where i didn't offer any opposing viewpoint at home. That sounded so simple, but when i realised Hubby would say something like "tonight is Survivor", i would have to stifle a reply like "Oh, i thought You'd want to watch the taped Medium tonight and just Tivo Survivor for tomorrow." i started seeing how many times over the years i have interjected my opinions and plans and desires on Hubby; no wonder He didn't feel He could have a single independant thought! my fingerprints were all over every word He uttered. Pride again. Lilsister, letting some of this pride stuff go is kind of like humiliation play. When pride is in play, if you settle with a name He likes, but you don't, you'll feel like you'll want to point out "He chose her name" because your pride won't let you accept responsibility for such a silly name. Whne you've been able to release it, you'll be able to share in His decisions and take them as your own and be content with them. The crux of humiliation play is not "He made me wear this silly outfit" but when you can't TELL anyone you didn't choose this silly outfit! i truly think the payoff in humiliation play is when you feel more at ease doing Masters bidding than looking "right" to the world at large. With pride, the payoff is.. when i feel truly surrendered to His will, rather than wanting to meet some societal standard for right-ness, i am in my cosy place. It's slow going for me, as you can see, my pride pops up and i make excuses for camel-type by making note it's His directive that i type this way! But just being aware that pride is what is at the root of this behavior is helping me to get a grip on some of my more irritating traits. Maybe this will help you too.

AquaticSub -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/18/2006 9:53:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation I don't see why you shouldn't debate with your dominant. I agree with aquatic, nothing wrong with debating with your Dom providing it is done with respect and it is the right time. It really doesn't matter what the two of you or anyone else thinks on this issue. What matters is how her Dominant feels about the issue. If He enjoys a debate whenever.. or at only specific times or never... it is He who decides what best for him.... She either accepts it or doesn't... if she doesn't well... she in for a rocky road. I'm sorry, I was under the mistaken impression people post here for other's opinions. It's clearly a sounding board for one's thoughts and no one else should ever comment. If you can't hear the scarasm, clean your ears.

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