Submission w/right n wrong (Full Version)

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Devilslilsister -> Submission w/right n wrong (12/14/2006 9:25:14 PM)

Laying in bed thinking about things that need to be discussed with my Dom.  I wasnt able to find a solution to a train of thought so i thought i would bring it here.  I seem to have difficulties submitting to something i view as "wrong".  Simple wrongs nothing major.  Its not something i have a problem soley with my Master, but with anything.  Got into a debate with my Astronomy teacher because he was explaining black holes and my problem with his theory was that black holes are abit too far to decide anything concrete, much less what happens when something enters one.  He eventually gave up on the dicussion.  eh.  I debate with my mother quite often.  We have massively opposing views on life.  I pretty much think her views are skewered.  I'm also right - )  heh  I debate with her because she's wrong and because i'm trying to help her "do better" - yet she thinks i'm wrong.. and on with the discussion.

So its a trait of mine.  Not sure why, what it means - except maybe i have abit of "i'm always right" running through me.  Not that i mind being "proven" wrong.  Just prove it and well i'm wrong. No biggie.  I do have a bad tendency to turn out right in alot of situations, which might be part of the problem. 

With my Dom its abit more difficult.  i technically "know" i should not go about debating with him.  I should just purely submit.  Asking me to submit to something i find "wrong" is past tough.  For example baby names.  He thinks i shouldnt ask other's opionons on names.  i think it gives me a broader view on things and ultimately helps me make the "right" decision.  So i of course, debated.  <smiles>  Or - He's threatening to cut me off from tv/the net/ and talking to others about pregnancy.  He thinks it stresses me out (which it does) and i think it educates me.  Education is good.  Logically we're both right.  Yet, i think that its good to be prepared.  Therefore.... <grins>  i'm right.  I do tend to "listen" over time - its not a conscious decision.  I just tend to fall towards his way.. like i've stopped asking others about baby names and i'm not so into learning all about pregnancy.  So in the end, i technically do submit.  Which really isnt the issue. 

i just do not know how to "think" you are WAY off your mark - and then follow along.  How do you do that??  I know submission isnt about being right or about agreeing nor liking things.  Its about submitting to anothers will.  Do you follow along and shrug thinking "hey i hope this turns out for the best?" 

Arg, i hope i've explained myself.  The examples i used are about couple in a million and obviously my Dom isnt really bothered by it and has never made mention of it.  Yet i do realize that i should not be debating with him.  Just unsure how to "not" debate.  To make it abit more simpler to explain my point.  If my Dom told me i had the ability to run through a wall - i would probably look at him and debate about biology and physics and why its logically impossible.  I would most likely not do it, as running into a wall to go through it, would be purely retarded.  Of course if he said "run into the wall" that i can do.  Its the "wrong" factor.  i "can" run into a wall, but i can not run through a wall.  One sentence is wrong, while the other is "right" 

welp i hope this makes sense!



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/14/2006 9:50:43 PM)

Humility and grace.  Allow both of them to become your beacon.



BDSM05478 -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/14/2006 9:53:38 PM)

since you brought it here i gotta ask, why such the big importence on being right or wrong? what do you have to prove? i'm honestly just asking.
now for the how do you do something you know is wrong because your *D* wants you to do it, can't help you there. I've had to do things His way when I thought my way was "right" but i grumbled inside my head the whole time and once the task was completed He explained why He wanted it do that way and it was all good after that. sorry i'm no help with the real question.



SusanofO -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/14/2006 10:03:55 PM)

I was brought up with a mother who was "always right" (no matter how little she knew on the topic - although she did know a lot about a lot of things, she knew less about some things, and couldn't ever admit it).

The rest of us (my Dad and my two sisters, learned early on to just say 'Okay, mom" or "Okay, Patty", or she'd just go on forever, arguing sometimes about basically nothing (it didn't have to be important. it could about how to hang TP in the bathroom, etc.)  

She was pretty smart, and loved to debate. She also was a non-stop talker. So my solution to things I don't agree with (or actually know the real truth is other than what they say is true) is usually to just say "Yeah, okay - whatever", and change the topic. It's just too draining for me to debate people like this, if I realize the argument is going nowhere. To this day I think this trait of my mother's is the real reason my sister became a lawyer.

On the other hand, if it's a real debate, I will "defend my turf" and debate about it. But - there are people who just don't know when to say "when". I find them tiring. They just make me want to go take a nap.

I'd bet you're in the second group - and there's nothing wrong with asking questions.

But - it might be food for thought to give a thought to how much of a toll your need to "win" could be taking on someone else, if you just want to be right all the time - even if you're not. No offense intended (and I could be wrong)...Because you're really not leaving the other person any recourse - it's obvious what you want to happen, so it's not really a dialougue or a conversation. It's a monologue.

The only reason I bring all this up is that maybe a need to feel 'right' is rooted in the way you were brought up or something? If you are aware of "where something came from' - sometimes it can be easier to change it. If you think it's necessary (or your Domiannt does).


As far as how that affects submitting to a Dominant - for me part of the thrill is sometimes not fully understanding why they'd want me to do something - doing it anyway makes me feel even more submissive and trusting, somehow. But I'm not perfect, I haven't always done things without asking questions, (depends on what it was, I don't cirrently have a Dominant) - although I usually did. But anyway - don't feel bad. You're not alone.

- Susan  



midniteReign -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/14/2006 10:09:30 PM)

As a Dominant, I would play with my submissives mind sometimes and have her do things that she didn't know why.  I had my reasons, she didn't need to know them at the time.  As she would say, she didn't want to know the secret behind the magic.  Sometimes it's best to put logic aside, and allow trust to take over.



AquaticSub -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/14/2006 10:12:37 PM)

~Fast Reply~

I don't see why you shouldn't debate with your dominant. I do it all the time. My dominant enjoys it as we come from very different backgrounds and often I provide an entirely view on things that he hasn't considered before and, as he puts it, "It tells me the brain in your head is working." I know when continuing on a topic for too long is annoying him because he will say, in a very particular tone of voice, "Kitten stop." And then I stop.

It sounds to me like you might have a need excerise your mind. There is nothing wrong with that as a need. Perhaps instead of having your debates with him, if it truely bothers the both of you, you could join a debate group online or perhaps even a debate team. Debates and the give and take of ideas is quite fun. I don't know if I could manage without it.

Remember there is no right way or wrong way, there is only your way and what will work for you. If it doesn't bother your dominant, then I wouldn't fret over it. Ask him about it and what he wants. My dominant wishs for our debates to continue and in this way I am serving him because I am pleasing him. Just something to think about.



DominaSmartass -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/14/2006 10:24:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister

So its a trait of mine.  Not sure why, what it means - except maybe i have abit of "i'm always right" running through me.  Not that i mind being "proven" wrong.  Just prove it and well i'm wrong. No biggie.  I do have a bad tendency to turn out right in alot of situations, which might be part of the problem. 


Oooh, ooohhh, I know! I know!

You're not a "real" submissive or slave. <wink!> hehe...



xoxi -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/14/2006 11:36:01 PM)

Hmm...I'm assuming you submit to your Dom with your mind body and soul?

He expects the best from your body - that you keep it in good shape for him, I assume...so why not the same for your mind?  What good is it to give your mind to him if it doesn't function in the first place?

I think any Dom, any man, any person worth anything should be able to admit when they are wrong, especially if its something that can literally be proven to be factually incorrect, and not something that is a matter of opinion.

That being said, be tactful about it.  There's a big difference between 'I can't run through a wall you idiot' and 'I'm sorry but that's physically impossible.'

Xoxi



Quivver -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/15/2006 2:28:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi
There's a big difference between 'I can't run through a wall you idiot' and 'I'm sorry but that's physically impossible.'


My thoughts exactly.  And once you practice this enough with him it will transfer over to all the other area's of your life also.  Tact will build Grace.......



cjklyn -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/15/2006 2:52:34 AM)

I read to things in the OP's first post. First, abotu being right or wrong. YOu also mention "debate". If you do go into a "debate" or discussion with a fixed view that you are not prepared to change because you know you are right, then is there really any point in talking to anyone about it? If you are right, then you'll get no value any discussion. I'm also amazed people continue to debate with you. The first thing my ex father in law said to me was " I once thought I was wrong but I was mistaken".. It took me a couple of years to realise he was "always" right. the outcome.. Apart from civil hellos and goodbyes, I hardly talked to him for years. Whats the point. My ex was also like that. Whenever we had discussions, there'd come a point where I knew she was digging her heels in. Discussion ends.. not point continuing, often ended acrimoniously to...
As for your second point about having trouble submitting because you think somethings wrong. When I started reading your post, I started thinking "why should you". isn't that around discussion of limits and boundaries. But then as your post went on, I thing your problem is more a basic interatcion/relationship than about the dom/sub thing. IT also sounds like your mixing up "right/wrong" with "don't want to"...

I'd suggest you try to be more open to others ideas, and even if you feel your always right, at least give them the impression your thinking about their opiniions. And with your dom/master, I'd try and work out how to deal with the things you don't want to do/are uncofortable with, and move forward from there




Voltare -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/15/2006 2:55:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Humility and grace.  Allow both of them to become your beacon.


Right on.

I'm a debater.  I get that from my mom.  Yet at home, gretchen and I never really seem to debate anything.  It's not that we always agree (we don't), it's not that I don't let her disagree (I do) and it's not because we're living a fairy tale (we're not.)  We discuss different things almost endlessly, every day. 

The secret is already revealed: it's not what you say, but how you say it.  I don't take her opinions as a personal attack, she doesn't take mine as a threat. 

Something that I see cause trouble with lots of couples is when one, the other, or both seems to be out to score points.  Usually it doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand, or any problems related to the relationship.  It seems to be a personality thing, but it can do a lot of damage if not kept in check.

Thinking before you speak, and a double dose of a sincere 'I'm sorry' when something bad comes out goes a long way.




gretchenS -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/15/2006 3:15:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Voltare



Something that I see cause trouble with lots of couples is when one, the other, or both seems to be out to score points. 



We seem to get an even score... all the time...

My family is not the "debating" kind, so I grew up debating with my own judgement. My parents are very smart people, but they tend to be a little close minded in many things or sometimes too trusting (my mom is inmensingly logical, she has a very mathematical mind and my dad is quite naive). My brother and I we are both open minded individuals that seem to be ok with other people's opinions and both very untrusting, so we are constantly asking ourself or eachother for other possibilities. We not only see the black and white, there's millions of greys in the middle.

Theories and opinions are supposed to be just that. I tend to just let go, because there's nothing concrete about them. A black hole may be what astronomers tell us they  think it is. Could be a portal or tunnel as well as it could be a chinese finger puzzle in a very large scale... who knows...



LotusSong -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/15/2006 3:50:46 AM)

All in all, you will outgrow it.  (the having always to be right thing)
 
Believe it or not, it stems from your insecurities.  You are looking for constant validation.



MmakeMme -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/15/2006 3:52:39 AM)

Lil Sister, first I think your Dom is probably fine with you debating Him. Surely He knew this about you before you submitted to Him. My Sir doesn't mind my challenge - He is secure in Himself and is glad to debate with me (but when He says "enough" ... well ... I know I am being annoying ... and I ~usually~ cease).

But your post brings to mind something I learned from my business partner. There are many approaches to any given situation. One will feel strongly about his or her solution or approach. However (and this is a big one) there is no one right way - none of us possess the ONLY right way. There are many right ways because we are not living in static. This big ol' mess we've been given (life) is like one of those nasty essay questions through which anyone can bullshit, and do so pretty darned well. The answers may differ considerably, and sometimes the opinions look flawed to another, but are just right for that individual.



missturbation -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/15/2006 4:00:08 AM)

I don't see why you shouldn't debate with your dominant.

I agree with aquatic, nothing wrong with debating with your Dom providing it is done with respect and it is the right time.



eyesopened -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/15/2006 4:19:20 AM)

i learn a lot through discussion as long as i keep my mind open and actually listen to the other person.  There is a difference in always having to 'debate' in order to challenge the other person's views.  As annoying as i normally find him to be, i think ole Dr. Phil was right on when he said "Some people would rather be right than happy."



onestandingstill -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/15/2006 5:04:59 AM)

Hello lilsister,
I am also one who often feels my opinion stands correct most of the time.
When it comes to submission to my Sir for me right or wrong is not as important as accepting he's in charge and submitting to his will.
It's like relating to your boss at work for me when we have opposing views.
Your boss does not care if you're right, and often proving it makes you seem combative.
I do want the right to voice my opinion, knowledge or input.
Once I've had the opportunity to voice my train of thought, if my Sir decides to follow a different train of thought I will not challenge that.
HE'S in control, HE"S in charge, and it's HIS CHOICE to make the decisions.
Over all you chose to allow him to be the head of your relationship and you claim to trust him with your life by being his sub.
If you can trust him with your life than why would you think debating him and the power struggle that would ensue behind that could be beneficial to either of you?
It really does not matter in the end if He's wrong and learns this lesson at his own hand or someone else's, or never in most things really.
When it does come to light going off in his mind and he sees he was wrong in something I wouldn't advise the I was right and you were wrong approach either as I just don't feel it's respectful to gloat.
The conversation you had prior to him finding the correct answer is still in his memory and he needs no reminder of that.
The more he finds out your opinion was right on his own the more he'll consider your side/statements in the future.
To have you correcting him constantly, or pointing out you were right  in my opinion will affect your ability to respect his leadership.
It's OK to agree you disagree, and to say you oppose his view, but in the end you're suppose to be the one who follows and he's the one who's suppose to lead.
I'd say save the debates for things that fiercely matter to you and let the rest slide.
I think over all it will be beneficial to you both.

Being right and alone isn't half as nice as being wrong and owned by your one is it?
suzanne



KnightofMists -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/15/2006 6:27:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

I don't see why you shouldn't debate with your dominant.

I agree with aquatic, nothing wrong with debating with your Dom providing it is done with respect and it is the right time.


It really doesn't matter what the two of you or anyone else thinks on this issue.

What matters is how her Dominant feels about the issue. 

If He enjoys a debate whenever.. or at only specific times or never...  it is He who decides what best for him.... She either accepts it or doesn't... if she doesn't  well... she in for a rocky road.



LeatherBentOne -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/15/2006 6:32:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: midniteReign

As a Dominant, I would play with my submissives mind sometimes and have her do things that she didn't know why.  I had my reasons, she didn't need to know them at the time.  As she would say, she didn't want to know the secret behind the magic.  Sometimes it's best to put logic aside, and allow trust to take over.


Right on . . . it has everythong to do with lack of trust in your Dom's judgement coupled with the need for you to be validated. 

Ask yourself if what your Dom is wanting you to do is permanently harmful to your being in anyway.  If the answer is NO, then just do it.  Nothing is more frustrating for me than my sub expecting me to prove my point before she follows through with my wishes.  If she asks questions to clarify my request, that's one thing.  But to question the validity of my request is another.  If she doesn't understand my motivation behind the request, I expect her to complete the task and if the motive doesnt speak for itself, then ask why.  I find that most of her questions are answered automatically through execution, so be patient and give it a chance before you knock down your Dom's request because you wouldn't do the same of your own free will.

There is much to learn through experience and trusting that your Dom has your best interests at heart and that he may just be trying to show you your options rather than encourage you to cling to your close-minded views.  Be open to listening and learning.  I promise it won't make you less of a person by yielding to the will of your Dom.  Besides, ever try learning something new and talking at the same time?  Kind of like your analogy about the wall.

Allow the "magic" to happen.  Submit from a place of trust and take the leap of faith that your Dom may just know a better way.  You may be surprised to find that you might learn something new that negates stubborn-mindedness.  Second-guess why you are being asked to do what you're doing but play the game in your mind and see if you were right.  If you are, that's self-validation.  If you're not, you learned something new.  Besides being fun, you will learn to validate yourself rather than rely on others you feel the need to debate with to do that for you.

I remind my sub often . . . "Everything that's in your mind doesn't always need to come out of your mouth."

I'm assuming that this is a character trait you wish to change since you posted about it, or are you looking for validation tfrom others o continue with this behavior?  Smiles.  No offense meant, but you might want to consider your answer. 

Best of luck to you and I hope you find the answers to what you are seeking.

LBO



toservez -> RE: Submission w/right n wrong (12/15/2006 7:08:09 AM)

There is nothing wrong with having debates on subjects with your Master and hopefully your Master enjoys them. From reading the OP though it sounds much more then simply debating views on things but sounds like you have a major case of confusing facts, opinions and the difference between what is right and what is just someone’s preference.

Serving another is often many times having to put your own preferences or the way you want to do something aside and doing what you are ordered or doing what you know your Master prefers. Most things of this nature are not right or wrong scenarios but just things. Try not to confuse the difference.

My advice is whenever you feel you have been ask to do something “wrong” take a step back in your mind and think what is the harm in doing the “wrong” thing to your Master, yourself and outside parties. Chances are there will be no such harm and hopefully that will help.



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