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RE: Red Flags - 12/13/2006 11:57:00 AM   
an0en


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Joined: 10/21/2006
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Great article!


(in reply to drawntothedark)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Red Flags - 12/14/2006 9:37:42 AM   
idiott


Posts: 19
Joined: 10/20/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDominic

The cyber is another one, because they will almost never actually follow through on meeting you. A lot of people have wasted months cybering with one of these types before they finally get that a real meeting is never going to happen. It is a particularly thorny one as most subs do want to go slowly and build some trust, as rightly they should.


I have to agree that this one is 'thorny', lol. My first Master, who i will always love even though things didn't work out, was very patient with me and helped me to learn a lot about myself and the lifestyle. However, i was very nervous about moving cross country and leaving everything and everyone i have ever known, so even after leaving the man i was with, i still had trouble making the move. He said that He would wait for me to be comfortable with it and i took Him at His word ... now i regret that i let my caution win out for nine months. He decided that i was 'leading him on' and released me. As He said when He said good-bye ... when you want something, you have to reach out and grab it. Next time, i will probaby just take the chance and if i get hurt then its just part of life. One last lesson from my Daddy.  

(in reply to SirDominic)
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RE: Red Flags - 12/30/2006 7:49:51 AM   
ladyhawk40


Posts: 32
Joined: 6/20/2005
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I have had experience with "So Called Dominants/Masters" online. The first one we planned to meet after my divorce was final. I saved for months to get a my passport and a ticket to London and 2 days before my divorce was final , he bailed and said, No , do not come over here. A few months later found out , he was still married and had grown kids.

The second lived 8 hours from me and  we planned to meet but something always come up. I found out he was playing 2 of us. I actually talk to the other lady on the phone. They planned to get married but several months later she found out he was playing a game with her and others. She has since married someone else.

The man I am with now, played no games with me. He drove 250 miles to meet me the first time. We talked on the phone several hours and times before. He then came back a month later and drove me over 400 miles to meet my family and best friend at the time. I then came over to his house for a visit a few weeks later. I moved in with him a few weeks after that. He earned my trust. We have been together coming up on 3 years now and I loved every minute of it.

We have tried to add and make us poly and I do have a couple of sisters that actually see him as Daddy with no other stipulations. But we have been hurt a couple of times too by subs that proclaim to want to be with us and one we spent a bit of money on , both meeting her 400 miles away and bringing her here for the summer but she up and left us at a spanking conference. Chalk that one up to learning experience although I had gotten close to her over several months and did feel a lot of hurt and put walls up. After that I think I watched for those red flags with anyone we talked to and learned a few more lessons as I went along.


(in reply to idiott)
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RE: Red Flags - 12/30/2006 8:22:23 AM   
Fawne


Posts: 462
Status: offline
Grrrrr .. Oh! I hate games! Why can't people be honest? It ruins it for those of us who are sincere.

I really, really hate to point this out... but I feel it is an important reality people need to be aware of.

I don't know about every state in the nation or abroad. But, I used to work around the legal profession and know a bit about the law. ( Thank God, no more. I am now in a great artistic profession and I am so happy!)

An SM contract is not legally binding by law. Assault and such can't legally be consented to. A contract is a good idea, even if it just stabilizes... whatever.

Best bet: get to know the person well enough and fairly, go slow, use your instincts. You all understand.


Just a gentle fact.  I feel for you.

peace to all, fawne

< Message edited by Fawne -- 12/30/2006 8:46:15 AM >

(in reply to ladyhawk40)
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RE: Red Flags - 12/30/2006 8:26:33 AM   
bandit25


Posts: 3029
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You did what you thought was best.  Don't beat yourself up over it.

I'm sure there are plenty on here who would offer to do it for you.  Seriously, tho, don't dwell.  Honey, you can't spend your life on the past.  It's time to move forward...whatever that means for you.

< Message edited by bandit25 -- 12/30/2006 8:44:07 AM >

(in reply to idiott)
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RE: Red Flags - 12/30/2006 9:42:51 AM   
dawntreader


Posts: 3045
Joined: 11/23/2006
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Great article!

As a novice, i have made many mistakes since coming into my submission : assuming every one else knew more than i, trusting too much, giving myself too soon, and most importantly not using my god-given common sense and recognizing obvious red flags. In my opinion, i feel fortunate that i have only experienced heart ache, intense disappointment, and severe beating of my self-esteem. It could have been worse :-(

But what i really gleaned from the article was that Dom's can be used and abused as well , not something i have given much thought to before now... i guess i just thought because of their dominate nature they are able to "read" a sub better than the average guy reads a woman. Maybe because in the vanilla world i would look at these manipulating subs as more dominate and the Dom's that fall prey to them as more of a submissive to allow such a dynamic. No disrespect intended for those Dom's that have been on the receiving end of such manipulation...just something, because of my inexperience, i never considered...

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to ladyhawk40)
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RE: Red Flags - 12/30/2006 10:57:04 AM   
losttreasure


Posts: 875
Joined: 12/17/2005
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Fast Reply

In the spirit of conservation, I'll simply recycle a previous post of mine.    The following is written from the perspective of a female submissive searching for a male dominant, but in essense it really applies to anyone interested in meeting someone online.

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

Keep an eye out for recycled emails.  If they aren't specific to your conversations and interspersed with and specifically answering bits of your own emails... be wary.  Some very savvy types have generic emails that they can tailor to any woman they are communicating with... saves them time and makes them look like they are investing time in you.

In my experience, most conversations start out with sharing a general idea of what it is you are looking for (i.e. playdates, long term relationship, etc.), your philosophies of the lifestyle (i.e. not into poly, not into pain, etc.), and experiences you might have in common here on CollarMe or whatever site it is you meet on.  This would seem to be a safe meeting ground of ideas...

Where things go south is if he wants to steer the conversation right into sexual fantasies and BDSM checklists.  Big red flag... unless you aren’t looking for a long-term relationship.  But even then, if all you want is a playdate, I can’t imagine not wanting to get to know any potential partner a little bit better.  At any rate, the key is to only go where you are comfortable right now.

Concerning the rest of my advice, it’s primarily written from the standpoint of someone seeking a long-term relationship.  That’s what I know.  But it can serve anyone well, depending upon how you want to apply it.

Anyway... a typical and comfortable segue from the general ideas would be to discuss your journeys thus far in the lifestyle... when did you know you were a dominant/submissive?... how did you find out about D/s?... and similar types of questions.  There should be no pressure for soul-bearing at this point; no "tell me of your sexual experience" questions.

A bit of a caveat here... it isn’t always a bad thing to share sexual experiences early on.  If it’s a situation where you are mutually sharing some details of your interests, there might be points where either you or he want to get clarification.  Keep in mind that you are trying to determine if this person is compatible with you... and that will entail sexual and BDSM compatibility.  My caution is to generally avoid a situation where you are being grilled for intimate details of your sexual experiences and fantasies to the exclusion of all other types of conversation.  In the same respect that there is a need to determine sexual and BDSM compatibility, you also need to find out about general life compatibility.

Again, go with what you are comfortable with.

When first conversing make a rule with yourself that any information he asks of you, he should provide the same information for himself, either before asking you or allowing you the opportunity to ask the same from him.  For example, if he asks you about your educational background, he should either automatically tell you what his is, or let you ask him before he pushes the conversation on to the "next question".  If you do ask and he avoids answering, that's a huge red flag.  This should be a conversation, not a one sided interview.

In this give and take, you should also be very aware about the pattern of who asks first.  He shouldn’t always ask for your information first, then provide his... nor should it be the other way around.  You may have to make a conscious effort, but mix it up and take turns.  The reason for doing this is something known as mirroring that you want to avoid.  

Mirroring creates “false” compatibility.  It is very easy in the excitement of meeting someone new to unconsciously “mirror” the other persons wants and desires.  In wanting to please and form a bond, we can find ourselves suddenly wanting something that we’ve never wanted before, simply because the other person expresses the desire and we want the relationship to develop.  Worse yet, we can fool ourselves into twisting our own ideas and experiences to match the other person.

There’s also a danger because of predators who use this technique consciously.  If he manipulates the conversation so that he always has your information first, then he can tailor his answer to “mirror” yours and lure you into thinking you’ve found “Dom Right”.  Just be aware.

If he doesn't seem interested in knowing about you (and NOT just  your sexual fantasies, either), he probably isn't.  If he just sits back and tries to steer you into entertaining him, he probably is just wanting to be entertained for the evening.

Oh, and if he asks you what you are wearing... HUGE RED FLAG.

And for what it's worth, he should be just as interested in you knowing about him, as well.  He may not be comfortable giving out specific personal information at the first (and neither should you), but his real first name, what he does for a living, and his marital/family situation are all pieces of information that you should have by the end of your first conversation.  

If you've shared a photo with him and he hasn't returned the favor within a communication or two, or has made excuses (i.e. "My digital camera is broken" or "In my line of work I have to be very careful"), be very cautious yourself.  Digital cameras can be purchased for less than $20... do you really want to get involved with someone who can't afford $20?  And the "I can't risk being recognized" line is a poor one unless you live in the same town with a population of less than 100.  Heck, there are times when I'd have a hard time recognizing my own children in a crowd.

I could honestly continue on, but this post has become very lengthy as it is.  My general advice is to listen to your “inner voice” or “gut feeling”.  If something doesn’t feel right or make sense, there’s a real reason.  Ask for clarification... ask the same question again at another time but in a different way... look for inconsistencies... and follow your instinct.  

Finally, be very aware and cautious about the phenomenon known as “sub-frenzy”.  If you aren’t familiar with it, you can search for information about it right here on the forums or just ask.

Best of Wishes,

Treasure


(in reply to dawntreader)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Red Flags - 12/30/2006 1:15:36 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
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Thank you! Thank you and thank you!
I am copying this and saving it on my computer.

I have talked to many, and I do mean many male submissives
that I would be scared to meet.
I hope everyone is careful, I don't hear enough about what
could happen to a Dominant woman, if she gets involved
with a psycho submissive nutcase.
 

< Message edited by MzMia -- 12/30/2006 1:17:43 PM >


_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to ladyhawk40)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Red Flags - 12/30/2006 1:21:28 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
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I just saved this article in 3 places.
I am also going to send this to a lot
of the Dominant women .

I am even going to send this to my vanilla friends.
This article should be mandatory reading.

< Message edited by MzMia -- 12/30/2006 1:43:44 PM >


_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to MzMia)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Red Flags - 12/30/2006 1:34:53 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: ladyhawk40

I found a very interesting article a while back. In my opinion, we here a lot about Dominant Predators , most the time men. But what about the Submissive Predators out there. So I thought I would post this here, if not for anything but general information.

Red Flags, Warning Signs & Intuition - Learning To Trust Your Instincts
by Mistress Norische
 
[Mod Note:  article replaced with above link.  Please do not paste copyrighted works here in their entirety]


I read through the article.  I have had experience with the "Legal Eagle"...scared the hell out of me.  In my opinion, this type of 'submissive' is the most dangerous type because you cannot take away the marks you've left and if you've left your fingerprints anywhere in her house or wherever the two of you were... 

I've met several of the other types but their actions were more blatant, at least to me, and so I never became involved with them.


Color me paranoid, but I steer clear of submissive police officers, probation officers, lawyers
and anyone in a remotely related field.  I dated a probation officer for a few months, 10 years ago when I
was vanilla. LOL that was enough for me.


_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Red Flags - 12/30/2006 2:41:55 PM   
Fawne


Posts: 462
Status: offline
I must disagree, MzMia. ( well not about probation officers being... ugh)

May I ask? Why is knowledge a dangerous thing?

Like I said, I used to work in the legal field and while I am way-outta-there I think those who know what is going on - would be LESS likely to press any charge, take the risk of losing their own career, embarrass themselves, falsely accuse someone  or whatever. They know the dangers.

Maybe you ( or some - don't want to jump on you) are confusing those with tedious, underpaid gov't jobs  ;)  ... with the plain psychos who DO the legal eagle revenge crazy thing.

If I were a dominant man, I'd be real wary of submissives who you just met  ( or want to) who right away ask for  .. whatever is extreme  -  fantasy crazies.

Fantasy crazies - with no experience -who are strangers- that will be who'll freak out when they realize ... it ain't what they expected. "You mean it hurts?" :O  

This is an ugly topic. I only wished to warn well meaning dominants a contract is only a covenant between you and your partner.

Trust goes both ways.

Humbly, fawne

(in reply to MzMia)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Red Flags - 12/30/2006 6:43:41 PM   
TPEOwner


Posts: 73
Joined: 9/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ladyhawk40

I found a very interesting article a while back. In my opinion, we here a lot about Dominant Predators , most the time men. But what about the Submissive Predators out there. So I thought I would post this here, if not for anything but general information.

Red Flags, Warning Signs & Intuition - Learning To Trust Your Instincts
by Mistress Norische
 
[Mod Note:  article replaced with above link.  Please do not paste copyrighted works here in their entirety]


Yeah, there are all sorts of predators out there, but the only thing that really scares me is the retroactive consent withdrawer.  One of the first subs I ever met from the net was one of those, and did her best to brand me as an abusive predator.  I was lucky, in that she chose the bdsm community rather than the police, and that she had a reputation in her local community for doing this on a regular basis so no one listened to her.  In short, I came out of it without a scratch, but it scared the hell out of me.

There are a lot of emotially broken women out there self identifying as submissives, and if one of them doesn't get what she wants from a dom, it's quite easy for her to convince herself that she was raped or abused, or beaten nonconsensually, and if her next stop is the police station, your life is destroyed, even if you are found not guilty, Which isn't a given.  If she has bruises or any kind of marks at all, you can forget all about innocent until proven guilty.  In the eyes of society we are sick, evil sexual devients even when all involved are consenting, and you have zero chance in a court of law.  There have been enough cases of this to show the pattern, and these are the kind of stories the press loves as well, so even if you win your life is destroyed.  Think about that the next time you play with someone on the first date.  My policy is i don't do anything even remotely intense unless I know her really well.  And even then, false rape and abuse accusations by women against men are the number one falsely reported crime in the USA, so even in a long term relationship, if she's vindictive enough, you are still screwed.  And if someone told you that a "slave contract" will save you, the prosecution doesn't call them slave contracts.  They call then confessions.  Remember, most of what we do is illegal even when consented to.  Even a consensual spanking can be prosecuted as assault by a DA looking to get his name in the papers, and if you use a paddle, it's asault with a dangerous weapon.

So while it's certainly true that there are plenty of predators out there amongst the dom population, mostly they are the use and dump kind.  Retroactive consent withdrawal is far more dangerous and life destroying then simply getting used.

(in reply to ladyhawk40)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Red Flags - 12/30/2006 9:17:03 PM   
HatesParisHilton


Posts: 3513
Joined: 12/27/2006
Status: offline
check these searches for greater danger:

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=Borderline+Personality+Character+Disorder&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

and

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Borderline+Personality+Character+Disorder&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&vc=&fp_ip=AU

best to check the DSM criteria online, really.  Gold diggers and thieves I can deal with.  THESE nutbags?  No.  THEY are the real danger  as you'll find if you look this stuff up, because of the history of the term/diagnostic classification:

It's a term coined because basically women can be socially and sexually as sociopathic as men, they just play that out in different ways.  But back in the 1950's, no-one had the guts to say women could "be that messed up", so they said "Borderline psychotic" instead, which later became "Borderline Personality Character Disorder".

And if you look this stuff up, you'll find that at least one in ten women in scenes like this fall into some part of that spectrum, AT LEAST.  Which is why it is such a touchy subject.

But if women should be warned of male sexual sociopaths, then fair is fair and men (and bi/queer women) should be warned off THESE psychobunnies as well.

Happy New Year.

(in reply to TPEOwner)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Red Flags - 12/30/2006 9:30:11 PM   
TPEOwner


Posts: 73
Joined: 9/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HatesParisHilton

check these searches for greater danger:

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=Borderline+Personality+Character+Disorder&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

and

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Borderline+Personality+Character+Disorder&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8&vc=&fp_ip=AU

best to check the DSM criteria online, really.  Gold diggers and thieves I can deal with.  THESE nutbags?  No.  THEY are the real danger  as you'll find if you look this stuff up, because of the history of the term/diagnostic classification:

It's a term coined because basically women can be socially and sexually as sociopathic as men, they just play that out in different ways.  But back in the 1950's, no-one had the guts to say women could "be that messed up", so they said "Borderline psychotic" instead, which later became "Borderline Personality Character Disorder".

And if you look this stuff up, you'll find that at least one in ten women in scenes like this fall into some part of that spectrum, AT LEAST.  Which is why it is such a touchy subject.

But if women should be warned of male sexual sociopaths, then fair is fair and men (and bi/queer women) should be warned off THESE psychobunnies as well.

Happy New Year.


You have no idea, my friend.  My mother and ex wife are both borederline.  Unfortunately, I never even heard of it until a couple of years after I left my ex.  I was directed to a web page about it by a friend who wanted to know if I thought it applied to a mutual aquaintance of ours.  As I read, my jaw started to drop, and kept right on going, as they described my marriage down to the slightest detail.  I lost my family, my friends, my entire social life.  One of the worst parts of BPD, is not only are you the victim of the person who has it, but NO ONE believes you  And they make sure they spread their distorted world view to everyone they know.  Once I realised what she was, I joined a victim's support group for awhile, and it was just amazing to hear how many people have gone through what I did.  BPD has nothing to do with bdsm, but it sure as hell can destroy your life.

(in reply to HatesParisHilton)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Red Flags - 12/30/2006 9:36:24 PM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fawne

I must disagree, MzMia. ( well not about probation officers being... ugh)

May I ask? Why is knowledge a dangerous thing?

Humbly, fawne


Hello Fawne, if you noticed I said it was a personal issue with ME.
We all have a choice of who we would prefer to deal with and who would prefer
NOT to deal with.
In my case, a lot of it has to do with the fact that it would be my luck to meet
psycho robo submissive cop, and in case you don't know when someone in
that field is nuts, hates you or is after you, they can make your life a living hell.
Again, this is just my preference.  That will leave more in law enforcement for the other ladies!

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to Fawne)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Red Flags - 12/30/2006 9:52:21 PM   
HatesParisHilton


Posts: 3513
Joined: 12/27/2006
Status: offline
TPEOwner, yeah, I have altogether an all too good idea.  Why?

because it's so COMMON.  In these circles more so which is why men and queer women MUST be far more careful than before, since a tragic fact about the BPCD's is that in general, they end up wanting to have kids (tragic for the kids), and almost NEVER see therapy through so they are not TRAGIC to those kids.

Worse yet, if their kid is female?

FOUR TIMES more likely to become a borderline themselves, and then if THAT kid has a female kid...

well, the math is obvious.

which means when you talk to PhD psych's off the record, they estimate that in ten years, diagnosed or not (like it matters), one in THREE women single out there between the ages of 18-40 (and 40 "is the new 30") will be Borderlines and destroying people.

and that is a CONSERVATIVE estimate.

So, forwarned is for-armed.  Sadly you only know the signs after suffering more than one of them.

(in reply to MzMia)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Red Flags - 12/31/2006 8:24:06 AM   
TPEOwner


Posts: 73
Joined: 9/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HatesParisHilton

TPEOwner, yeah, I have altogether an all too good idea.  Why?

because it's so COMMON.  In these circles more so which is why men and queer women MUST be far more careful than before, since a tragic fact about the BPCD's is that in general, they end up wanting to have kids (tragic for the kids), and almost NEVER see therapy through so they are not TRAGIC to those kids.

Worse yet, if their kid is female?

FOUR TIMES more likely to become a borderline themselves, and then if THAT kid has a female kid...

well, the math is obvious.

which means when you talk to PhD psych's off the record, they estimate that in ten years, diagnosed or not (like it matters), one in THREE women single out there between the ages of 18-40 (and 40 "is the new 30") will be Borderlines and destroying people.

and that is a CONSERVATIVE estimate.

So, forwarned is for-armed.  Sadly you only know the signs after suffering more than one of them.



I don't want to turn the thread into a bitch session about BPD, but I have to wonder how they make these predictions.  Also if it's going to become that prevelant, people will be better educated about it, and the only way a BPD can do real harm is if she's fooling everyone, which will become harder for them to do.

In any event, life is what it is, and when the bullet has your name on it, it doesn't matter how careful you are.  I refuse to live my life in fear of what might happen.  I take reasonable precautions and accept what comes.

(in reply to HatesParisHilton)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Red Flags - 12/31/2006 10:29:52 AM   
Fawne


Posts: 462
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fawne

I must disagree, MzMia. ( well not about probation officers being... ugh)

May I ask? Why is knowledge a dangerous thing?

Humbly, fawne


Hello Fawne, if you noticed I said it was a personal issue with ME.
We all have a choice of who we would prefer to deal with and who would prefer
NOT to deal with.
In my case, a lot of it has to do with the fact that it would be my luck to meet
psycho robo submissive cop, and in case you don't know when someone in
that field is nuts, hates you or is after you, they can make your life a living hell.
Again, this is just my preference.  That will leave more in law enforcement for the other ladies!


Yes, MzMia - I thought about it and I have to agree in part.

The thought of a psycho sub cop on a vendetta is really scary!

I will say - the sight of a wretched, weeping, lowlife who gets his jollies writing speeding tickets - prone at Your feet clinging to your ankles and begging for mercy - would be quite sight to see

All the best to you, fawne

(in reply to MzMia)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Red Flags - 12/31/2006 11:49:04 AM   
DiamondDiva


Posts: 266
Joined: 10/10/2004
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
I must say that this article was very interesting.  I have encountered the fetish/freak sub.  A couple of them as a matter of fact.  I am glad that I was able to sniff it out beforehand and not bother with them.  I always say that there is always going to be someone out there looking for kinky sex.

As for the Legal Eagle.  That is truly a concern of mine because nowadays you just don't know.  I remember two occassions that my intution kept me from engaging in something that I just had a feeling that would turn wrong because of this type person.

I was interested in having a threesome with my boyfriend and the only reason why I wouldn'd do it was because I kept saying to myself what would happen if this person that we were with decided to try to do something underhanded like go to the authorities with a bogus story.  I just could not get that out of my head and we never had our threesome.  (Unfortunately)



_____________________________

~Diamond Diva~

" When someone is telling you who they are LET THEM!!!


(in reply to drawntothedark)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Red Flags - 12/31/2006 11:58:41 AM   
MzMia


Posts: 5333
Joined: 7/30/2004
Status: offline
Hello Fawne!
I have to add that I would also love to see the cop writing us the
speeding ticket, in a dungeon with several Domina's that he gave
speeding tickets too.  heh heh
**I want to compliment you on your response to me, you have
provided a wonderful example of how people can disagree and
still be civil and even good natured**
You are marvelous***Happy New Year****


_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain


What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to Fawne)
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