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Handfeeding Newbies - 12/13/2006 4:50:05 AM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		Just a question I am throwing out for thought and to be bandied about... 

Many times we wonder what happened to common sense in some newbies that start exploring BDSM; we wonder why they are just blindly rushing along and not thinking, making reckless choices.

Are we (general we of those who also are into BDSM) in some ways promoting this by some of the dictates of "don't do this" or "do that"?  Instead of giving them options and telling them to make the choice that is best for them...

I know that there are many on this board who present varied opinions and ways of doing things and allow the people to make the choices that are right for them.  Then there are just as many who hand down instruction of what to do or not to do.  An example is telling a newbie avoid playing with someone who doesn't use safewords.  Why not give both options and make the newbie actually think about what option to choose?

Are newbies being hand-fed and which then promotes thoughtlessness in their actions?

Knight's kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus
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RE: Handfeeding Newbies - 12/13/2006 4:57:31 AM   
Kalira


Posts: 954
Joined: 10/9/2006
From: Fort Wayne Indiana
Status: offline 		I think that often we give off the impression that this life is somehow different than that of vanilla; and that our relationships are somehow 'better', or 'different'. The most common theme that I see with newcomers is mainly about how someone broke their trust and such. They need to come into this remembering that these are still relationships, and that like all relationships, they take TIME, patience, understanding, and commitment on both sides.

_____________________________

Facilius Per Partes In Cognitionem Totius Adducimur
We are more easily led part by part to an understanding of the whole.
Seneca

Damnant Quod Non Intellegunt

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RE: Handfeeding Newbies - 12/13/2006 5:12:49 AM   
Dartantris


Posts: 18
Joined: 1/31/2006
Status: offline 		Your question is too general to answer. I don't believe that every sub is the same or that you could define an approach that would be suitable for everyone. I believe "newbies" should be given the opportunity to experiment and time to get to know themsleves. Some people get very excited and wrapped up with the idea of making fantacies happen that it can effect their common sense. Often, after they've made a choice, they realize that it was a bad choice. That tells me that they don't lack common sense but were in a situation where they didn't use it or got carried away and weren't thinking clearly.  It happens to everyone in many areas of one's life not just relationships. You learn by your mistakes and you'll be fine. You keep repeating mistakes and either its telling about your personality or maybe you really enjoy the "bad" situation you keep getting yourself into. 

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RE: Handfeeding Newbies - 12/13/2006 6:44:31 AM   
Devilslilsister


Posts: 1262
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline 		I think you may be correct there Kyra.  If we want to help them, we should help them to think about their choices.  When i started out - i was told all about the "supposed to stuff"  Safe calls - safe words.. ect.  Didnt listen to a bit of it.  Figured i'd listen to myself - except - i had no knowledge.  Would be better if people actually sit down and help others figure it out instead of tell them what to do. 

Personally, i think this lifestyle is more dangerous then say vanilla.  Not because of the people involved, but because of the activities.  People are people every where - but i dont remember ever hearing of a vanilla couple nailing down the man's balls to a board.  Or stretching out the urethra of a woman for intercourse.  Never did i realise before i met my Dom that allowing another human being to tie me up - was putting my life in their hands.  That at that point they could literally do anything they wanted with me and i would be SOL if they wanted to do something bad.  As well with the mental bondage and all that.  Had a dicussion with my Dom not too long ago about why i agreed to be his slave.  Honestly, it was because i thought that if things didnt go well it'd be easy to walk.  No where in my calculations did it occur to me that is some mental process that goes on here. 

If we sit around and tell newbies what to do and what not to do - we're liable to miss something.  If we get them thinking and educated about all the possiblities they'll know how to handle and deal with situations as they arise.


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My ability to cope with BS is at an all time low - me

i may look like i'm doing nothing, but i'm very busy at a cellular level

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RE: Handfeeding Newbies - 12/13/2006 6:54:29 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		I think that to some extent, we should....or to go a step farther....we have a responsibility to some extent to handfeed newbies and pass along knowledge. I think that often times though, we end up feeding them the wrong food. They are presented with a limited menu that doesn't provide a balanced diet.

This is evidenced by the sheer numbers of drones who mindlessly repeat the BDSM mantras that are so prevalent today. One person hears them or reads them on some website and then repeats those little cliches to those who come after and pretty soon it's a great big ball of a lot of people who have some cool catch phrases with no actual understanding of the complexities of them, their possible successes or failures in application or their alternatives. They learn them as if they are set in stone rules not to be deviated from or questioned.

When people are new here, they are excited. They want to dig in and get their feet (or most likely other body parts) wet as quickly as possible. Trying to tell them to slow down and take the time to learn as much as they can from a VARIETY of different sources is kind of like telling the 5 year old who woke up at 3am on Christmas Eve and saw the presents under the tree to go back to sleep because it's too early. They want the easy, fast way...they want the condensed version of how to play the game so they can get in and get playing. So they latch on to those catch phrases....and repeat them to the next...and those people repeat them to the next....and so on.

Experience has become a bad word. If you speak of level of experience it will quickly be pointed out to you that experience doesn't make you right....and that is very true. The sad part is that when one who has actual experience tries to share the knowledge they have gained from it they are often quickly tagged as bragging, preaching, talking down to or know it alls. Most likely I believe, because those who do have a fair amount of varied experiences are much less likely to talk in those familiar cliches that they have become comfortable with.

The thing that does tend to bother me about experience level is that I often see people who have very little experience who are not only preaching those catch phrases like they are gospel, but who will also do fierce battle to defend them with anyone who suggests that there may be a different way.

The best possible scenario is one where the advice given is looked at from all sides and multiple options are presented. One of the reasons I believe I enjoy this message forum is the diversity. While I am sure that the debates may be confusing to some just coming in...at least they can see that there is more than one possible way. It at least provides a variety of ages, styles and experiences.



_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Handfeeding Newbies - 12/13/2006 7:06:01 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		We are usually trying to protect the new person and often fall back on old habits. We don't raise children by telling them, "You can touch the stove, but it will burn you. You're choice." In a lot of ways, we tend to see new subs/slaves as children rather than adults. Plus, we hope that people can learn from other's mistakes.

My mom yanked me away from the stove once. I remember it till this day. She protected me, even though it shocked and angered me and made me cry. Once I was and adult, thought, the approach was different. She was very good about letting me make my own mistakes, but she made sure I was as informed as she could make me before I chose. I think that's probably the best approach for mature adults.

Master Fire

< Message edited by MasterFireMaam -- 12/13/2006 7:18:46 AM >

_____________________________

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RE: Handfeeding Newbies - 12/13/2006 7:09:15 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		I haven't a clue who may be reading this forum and I don't post with *newbies* in mind. I don't post with anyone in mind and I don't feel responsible for anyone new to bdsm, either.

I'm not qualified to advise anyone on anything and won't.

Mostly, I see others posting their personal thoughts and opinions, how things have affected them and things they have found out. That gives people *new to bdsm* a range of options. Surely after that , it's up to them to get by?

agirl

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RE: Handfeeding Newbies - 12/13/2006 7:15:53 AM   
DOM68005


Posts: 6069
Joined: 12/5/2006
From: Nebraska
Status: offline 		Good post !!

I alway promote safewords ... especially for newbies who have never heard the concept.  After they gain some experience, then they have a basis to make such a decision.

Within limits, I help a newbie experience several different play styles.  Then they have something to base the decision on the play style they enjoy.

So ... for me, the newbie usually has a lack of experience or knowledge to be able to make informed choices.  After I train them ... even if just fundamentally, they are able to indicate their limits.  That is a start toward making informed choices.

One of my pet peeves is when someone indicates to anybody and expecially newbies "That guy is not a true Dom." simply because the target has a different style of BDSM than the speaker.  All the sub candidates that I have encountered are sharp mentally.  That is something they can decide for themselves unless the strong urges to play overtake them.
=========
I'm not much on "Yes Master", but I do like "Yes Sir" or "No Sir" which has more to do with manners as I was taught them than the BDSM mentality.  It is part of my nature to use "Yes Sir" or "No Sir" in the vanilla world.  Of course, if the person being spoken to is female, it becomes "Yes Ma'am" or "No Ma'am".

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RE: Handfeeding Newbies - 12/13/2006 7:29:31 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister
If we sit around and tell newbies what to do and what not to do - we're liable to miss something.  If we get them thinking and educated about all the possiblities they'll know how to handle and deal with situations as they arise.


I really agree with this.  Sometimes we (collectively) seem to want to mother-hen the newbies and since we automatically know better (tongue in cheek) we can come across as condescending and inadvertently close doors to people who might otherwise benefit from the wisdom of others.  If you question a dozen BDSMers (for lack of a better reference), their experiences will likely be vastly different from one anothers.  We see this on the boards all the time - so who's right?  Who's wrong?  Who's to say?  What is right for one individual is not for another, and so on.

I think we risk turning people away by our "do this...don't do that" comments.  We don't turn them away from D/s or BDSM per se, but we turn them away from asking further questions or participating in further dialogue.  I just came from the Anal Rape thread in the Ask a Master forum, where two people tossed condescending judgment around as though they knew all there was to know, based on a short written paragraph.  As I was reading how "sad" or "angry" these women were at my big bad horrible Master, I couldn't help but think if I were new I would never post again.  (I'm not turning this into something about me, but I wanted to use that as an exmple since this was the very next post I came to after thinking that). 

It's very easy to take our own experiences and apply them as "the right thing to do" across the board, but I think we risk confusing and alienating newbies while doing so.  I am a believer that logical, objective advice with options is the way to go. Of course now my mind is thinking back on past posts, wondering if I do that myself!

As for hand feeding and promoting thoughtlessness, I think deep inside everyone ends up looking for the right answers for themselves. I have a hard time believing that even the newest, most naiive and confused folks are walking zombies who will robotically do whatever strangers on a message board tell them to. They might at first, thinking it's the right thing to do, but if things don't feel right in your gut, you start to question them and look for better options for yourself.

Just some passing thoughts before even my first cup of coffee, so if they don't make sense, that's why :)

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RE: Hand feeding Newbies - 12/13/2006 7:31:46 AM   
onestandingstill


Posts: 1335
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline 		Hi kyra,
I think being submissive newbies are usually followers and not leaders that any Dominant interested in befriending them should indeed help a sub figure things out.
For that matter other subs should also be willing to help educate a new sub.
A submissive wants to follow a Dom and be pleasing.
If they've never done it before how would they have any idea of what rights they still maintain or safety should be implemented?
Mind you micro management is not necessary in my opinion, but for goodness sakes at least feed new people with resources to learn what's good, safe, sane and what their limits of self government and self control are.

For that matter I think any one associating with a new Dom should do the same.
It has nothing to do with coddling in my opinion, but more in the respect of an apprentice or educational approach I think we all need when we are new.
Sincerely,
suzanne

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RE: Hand feeding Newbies - 12/13/2006 7:39:30 AM   
BDSM05478


Posts: 417
Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline 		I totally see where your coming from and think that handfeeding any newbie the SSC and Rack and refrences act is a disservice. Hell they can find all that with the simple google BDSM search. From here on out, I'm pushing the other side lol except safe calls I do believe in that when playing with new people or in new places. The only safe word I was ever given by Daddy was the first time rl together, duct tape and knife play, and my word was "KooKooKaChoo" as from the beatles song. Even if I HAD have needed it I could NEVER have gotten it out. That still makes me chuckle three years later.

_____________________________

"It's a fool that looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart" U.E. McGill

"Never let the future disturb you. You will meet it, if you have to, with the same weapons of reason which today arm you against the present." - Marcus Aurelius

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RE: Handfeeding Newbies - 12/13/2006 7:40:18 AM   
whisperedsighs


Posts: 349
Joined: 11/12/2006
Status: offline 		I remember when I was a newbie to all of this.  I first ventured into a chat room, and started asking all kinds of questions.  I got a lot of information.  I then went out and bought a couple of books and looked at information sites.  These are the things I suggest to new submissives to do. 

I then if asked will share what mistakes I have made along the way.  I share from experience, they can learn from it or not.  Like several here have said, they are adults.

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oh my god that was so wrong! .... again please!

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RE: Handfeeding Newbies - 12/13/2006 7:41:56 AM   
happypervert


Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline
quote:

Are newbies being hand-fed and which then promotes thoughtlessness in their actions?

I don't believe there is a causal relationship between hand feeding and thoughtlessness.

I think the thoughtlessness comes from eagerness combined with fantasies of what they want to happen and a tenuous grasp on reality. So even when some are hand fed good advice it either gets misinterpreted or ignored.


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RE: Handfeeding Newbies - 12/13/2006 7:57:17 AM   
sweetnurseBBW


Posts: 2464
Joined: 1/26/2006
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		I think we should help guide newbies and help them to make their own responsible decisions.  I always tell them that this is my expereince and my point of view. I do not my opinion on them. 

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Sir Pain's pain slut

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RE: Handfeeding Newbies - 12/13/2006 8:00:28 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		As a newbie (i still feel new to this) it is very baffling when reading the posts made by others as there is so much varied advice given out. I have never personally felt like i have been told to do something rather than advised but it is difficult to go through all  the advice and choose which may be best for me.
After a few months no disrespect meant to anyone but i began to weed out the replies from certain posters whose advice i knew had not been beneficial to me before and stick with the posters that i knew had helped me previously. I know by doing that i may miss a gem by someone i have previously not found helpful but in a sea of posts you have to figure out some kind of path to follow. All in all there are about ten people who post here whose advice i regularly follow - 3 in the main.
Sorry i know this is a little of the topic you posted but i wanted to point out that i havent really ever felt i was being told what to do and the rest just seemed to follow lol.

An example is telling a newbie avoid playing with someone who doesn't use safewords.  Why not give both options and make the newbie actually think about what option to choose?
I think in all fairness anyone reading that should have enough intelligence to know that the reverse is an option too and shouldnt need to be given the other side.

< Message edited by missturbation -- 12/13/2006 8:01:42 AM >

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RE: Handfeeding Newbies - 12/13/2006 8:03:48 AM   
Altina


Posts: 14
Status: offline 		I will be honest, the only advice that I ever give to a new person is to take your time and get to know the other person. I don't adovocate safewords, safe calls, public play, nothing.
 
The only thing I suggest is to take your time, read everything you can, ask questions when you can, watch others, and then make your own informed decisions about what is and is not right for you.

_____________________________

trinity

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RE: Handfeeding Newbies - 12/13/2006 8:45:50 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Everyone's already said what I would (I was surprised when Owned echoed my own thoughts in that I think everyone DOES eventually have to make the answers for themselves...they just try and delay it by getting the easy answers from others)

And usually I'm told I'm far too mean to the novices so I doubt I'll have to worry about this particular problem of handfeeding them.

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"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Handfeeding Newbies - 12/13/2006 8:48:30 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

(I was surprised when Owned echoed my own thoughts in that I think everyone DOES eventually have to make the answers for themselves...they just try and delay it by getting the easy answers from others)

Well I hadn't had my coffee yet.

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RE: Hand feeding Newbies - 12/13/2006 9:36:09 AM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline 		i dont see any evidence of hand-feeding. i see everyone giving opinions, often as varied as can be, and leaving the newbie to make an informed decision.
 
(at least on the boards, i dont have any lifestyle activity's on my island so i can not comment on munches and play party's)
 
i think that thoughtlessness does not originate from hand feeding, or too cushy a security blanket,  it originates in not putting thought into your life.
 
i see much more preparation and thoughtfulness go into careers, and house buying then folks put in to partnering. which is odd....
 
but there are some n00bs that are doing due diligence, gathering information and making good decisions, tons of them, but we dont see them because their lives dont turn into train wrecks that splatter these boards with war storys...
 
 

< Message edited by crouchingtigress -- 12/13/2006 9:38:14 AM >

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RE: Hand feeding Newbies - 12/13/2006 9:56:03 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline 		Being someone who is somewhat in the transition stages of "new" and "somewhat experienced", not sure where I fall really, I have to say it depends on the type of knowledge you are talking about. Handfeeding them information about safety? I'm all for it. I think a beginner to this lifestyle needs plently safety precautions in their toolbox and the more the better. They don't always know what to trust. A begining submissive in particular can get so lost in the dream and fantasy of being this new role to a dominant that they can forget reality. While most of the time, that will just give them bad memories, that  can lead to some really bad stuff.

That's why I personally recamend safewords, safecalls, safety cuffs, mentors and lessons for flogging and cropping, getting to know locals in the lifestyle and above all else, getting to know your partner. As you learn more and become more comfortable with your limits (or lack of them) and your partner, you start to forgo the safety practices, but you do so intelligently and with some experience under your belt.

Everything else? Let them poke and prod, experiment and ask their own questions. Let them learn on their own what bothers them and tickles their fancy. But of course, no matter what we try to feed them, it's up to them if they want to eat it. They are adults and they will do what they want. We can try to points for safety as strongly as possible but there is no promise that they will listen to the wisdom that any of us have acquired. Who knows how much of a difference we make, particularly in this setting. Perhaps we are giving ourselves too much credit in thinking we guide them. Perhaps not enough.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

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