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Curious to what others would do. - 12/8/2006 4:41:07 PM

NeedToUseYou

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Well, my mother got arrested and is sitting in jail about a mile from my present location for spitting on and assualting an officer.
Now, the problem is she does have an untreated mental disorder, which she refuses to get treatment for(actually denies even having a problem)and thus far hasn't directly harmed anyone(entirely by luck), so we couldn't make her get treatment. We asked about it a few years ago and basicly there is little to be done until she does something. I mean she did throw a brick threw a van's window once because they were "trying to get her". Obviously they weren't but they still wouldn't let us commit her, or get her treatment.

Well, obviously she did something now that there is no getting out of, and my view is it is better to leave her in jail and hope she flips out while in there so they will force treatment rather than post her bail. As my sister is calling to inform them of the history. Anyway, I sorta feel bad leaving her in there but I think it's the only way to get her forced to get treatment and face the reality that she's not talking to me by telepathy or anyone else for example, and strangers aren't demons that kinda thing.

Anyway, I'm sticking to what I'm doing just wondering if I'm just being a hard ass about it. I don't think so, but curious to if others would get her out of jail.

Basicly I believe she is schizopheric(spelling), she tries to cover it up, but once you get her going she will talk about everything and become angry if you don't agree with her. Like talking to jesus, and others via telepathy, out of body stuff, demon possesed people, believing she is an angel, writing messages on her roof, Television talking to her directly etc, etc....

Post #: 1

RE: Curious to what others would do. - 12/8/2006 4:54:19 PM

Level

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Needs, first, I'm sorry you and your family are going through this.

Second, about 23, 24 years ago, my mom had a stroke. It primarily affected her mind. She was doing things like brushing the cat with her brush, talking to a picture of Jesus, etc. My brother and I put her in a mental health facility, and as we were leaving, she looked at me and said "I hate you."

She was, and is, the best friend I ever had, and I've never had to do anything that difficult.

Once she was released (she wasn't in terribly long), it was an uphill battle, but she got much better.

I would ask you, is she where she won't hurt/be hurt in jail? And I doubt they'll keep her a long time, so she may not get help through there.

Down here, you can go to a Justice of the Peace court (I work in one) and get an emergency mental health warrant issued, and have them placed for evaluation, as long as they aren't on drugs or drunk. I'd suggest you call a local JP and ask about something like that.

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RE: Curious to what others would do. - 12/8/2006 4:55:51 PM

Sinergy

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Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

Well, my mother got arrested and is sitting in jail about a mile from my present location for spitting on and assualting an officer.
Now, the problem is she does have an untreated mental disorder, which she refuses to get treatment for(actually denies even having a problem)and thus far hasn't directly harmed anyone(entirely by luck), so we couldn't make her get treatment. We asked about it a few years ago and basicly there is little to be done until she does something. I mean she did throw a brick threw a van's window once because they were "trying to get her". Obviously they weren't but they still wouldn't let us commit her, or get her treatment.

Well, obviously she did something now that there is no getting out of, and my view is it is better to leave her in jail and hope she flips out while in there so they will force treatment rather than post her bail. As my sister is calling to inform them of the history. Anyway, I sorta feel bad leaving her in there but I think it's the only way to get her forced to get treatment and face the reality that she's not talking to me by telepathy or anyone else for example, and strangers aren't demons that kinda thing.

Anyway, I'm sticking to what I'm doing just wondering if I'm just being a hard ass about it. I don't think so, but curious to if others would get her out of jail.

Basicly I believe she is schizopheric(spelling), she tries to cover it up, but once you get her going she will talk about everything and become angry if you don't agree with her. Like talking to jesus, and others via telepathy, out of body stuff, demon possesed people, believing she is an angel, writing messages on her roof, Television talking to her directly etc, etc....

Schizophrenic (schizophrenia) is the correct spelling. That is possible, but it could be a bunch of things (dementia of some flavor, unspotted drug abuse, etc) so I personally would avoid attempting to diagnose and simply observe behaviors.

Leaving her in jail is tough love. She wont like it. You may lose her as somebody who will be kind to you, if she was that sort, but like you pointed out, she may end up getting help.

Bailing her out after doing this sort of thing is simply enabling her to do the same thing to somebody else tomorrow. Spitting on a police officer is a form of assault. What if the next time she has a weapon?

I would probably call up the police station, indicate who I was, and indicate that I was not a mental health care professional, but I had observed certain behaviors on her part, and let them figure out what to do.

But this is just me and I could be wrong.

Sinergy

< Message edited by Sinergy -- 12/8/2006 4:56:57 PM >

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RE: Curious to what others would do. - 12/8/2006 4:57:46 PM

KatyLied

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Is there a mental health crisis hotline you can call? Sometimes a substance abuse organization is a good place to call (not becuase that's her problem, but because they can help guide you on the next step and some have 24 hr hotlines).

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Post #: 4

RE: Curious to what others would do. - 12/8/2006 5:04:31 PM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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It is possible that they will treat her in jail. My brother has a history of mental illness which he was treated for, and we did commit him for 72 hours once, but he did not remain in the hospital because family cannot commit their family members. He did finally receive treatment, and is very well now, works and is married.

He was arrested for taking the car keys out of a cop car because the cop had left his car running while he went into a quickie mart. My brother thought, in his disconnected state, that he was helping the cop. I do not know if they treated him or not while he was locked up in jail.

Unfortunately because of the laws that were passed under the Reagan era it is very hard to get a family member committed, as they have to consent to treatment. As anyone that has dealt with this issue knows, delusional people are unaware they need help, so they refuse treatment. It is very sad, but our jails are used as mental hospitals because mentally ill people are locked up for petty crimes and vagrancy. Jails are inappropriate places for the mentally ill, and the people who work at jails would be the first to tell you it makes their job harder as well as being hard on the mentally ill people.

I am sorry to hear of your difficulties, and I will send light your way.

_____________________________

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Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: Curious to what others would do. - 12/8/2006 5:09:07 PM

WyrdRich

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Joined: 1/3/2005
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      Ouch, rock and a hard place there. I can't see where letting her sit in jail is going to help things, if she spit on a cop, the process that will take her towards court-ordered help is underway. Get her out of there.

       If you have the means, hire a lawyer and make sure he/she understands the situation.

       We are dealing with something similar involving one of my younger brothers who also refuses treatment. He doesn't get violent (thank God, he's 330 lbs of muscle, nicknamed 'the Human Forklift') but he isn't able to function in society and prefers to self-medicate with beer or marijuana. We haven't been forced to take drastic steps.

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)

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RE: Curious to what others would do. - 12/8/2006 5:24:03 PM

spankmepink11

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Joined: 9/28/2005
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I'm sorry to hear you and your family are going through such a difficult situation. Personally, i think the charge alone...with corroborating statements from your family members might encourage the court to order her to seek treatment when her actual case goes before the judge. I couldn't see myself letting my mother sit in jail if i knew the reason behind her actions were due to mental illness. I agree with Katy also.... you could try a mental health crisis line.

Julia...i'm curious...did the court order your brother to seek treatment?

< Message edited by spankmepink11 -- 12/8/2006 5:26:18 PM >

(in reply to WyrdRich)

Post #: 7

RE: Curious to what others would do. - 12/8/2006 5:33:48 PM

NeedToUseYou

Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

Is there a mental health crisis hotline you can call? Sometimes a substance abuse organization is a good place to call (not becuase that's her problem, but because they can help guide you on the next step and some have 24 hr hotlines).

See that is really the problem a few years ago we did talk her into going to the hospital after another event that was crazy but not dangerous. Unfortunately, she simply lied to them, because she knows others think the things she believes are real are crazy. We did talk to the state mental health department in person(don't know official name now), and they said we couldn't force her to treatment unless she was proven to be dangerous. Anyway, the psychiatrist wouldn't even talk to us(sons and daughter), about it and released her stating temporary stress caused her behaviour after about 3 days.

So, that really only encouraged her even though if they knew the scope of the behaviour that has been getting progressively worse since I was in junior high school and episodes since early childhood, undoubtedly they'd have commited her or should anyway.

So, basicly it leaves us in the position of having to wait for her to hurt someone. Fortunately, she spit on an officer and attempted to hit him. (Funny that is good news). I figured she'd end up really hurting someone eventually before they'd force treatment. Better it happened this way than attacking someone unprepared or trained.

Anyway, my sister is calling the prosecutor tomm. to explain the situation and hopefully get him to force treatment, because she is guilty as hell on this undoubtedly. And she is broke, because she can't be around people, and can't work, so she couldn't pay a fine and we'd have to pay for everything in the meantime. I guess if they don't select treatment and send her to jail, we're going to have to pay the fine, and her bills. It's quite retarded, all she has to do is admit she has a mental problem, then she could get on SSI, and we wouldn't have to deal with all this crap. But instead, she denies it, attacks a cop, now we have to pay her bills.

Anyway, I'm ranting, it does make me angry though, as she has been doing this for the majority of my life to one degree or another, and blames everyone else for not understanding, but she won't meet anyone half way in the mean time.

Anyway, I'm suprised it appears everyone thus far agrees with this. I don't know no matter how much your mother pisses you off, she is still your mother, and it's almost a compulsion to help. I guess it's the same as a parent, I don't have kids though so just guessing there. I'm sticking to my ground though I'm going to drop off a small amount of cash so she can get snacks and stuff while in there but I'm not going to help besides that. Well, and make sure her dogs don't starve or electricity gets shut off.

Thanks.

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 8

RE: Curious to what others would do. - 12/8/2006 5:40:38 PM

NeedToUseYou

Posts: 2297
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

     Ouch, rock and a hard place there. I can't see where letting her sit in jail is going to help things, if she spit on a cop, the process that will take her towards court-ordered help is underway. Get her out of there.

      If you have the means, hire a lawyer and make sure he/she understands the situation.

      We are dealing with something similar involving one of my younger brothers who also refuses treatment. He doesn't get violent (thank God, he's 330 lbs of muscle, nicknamed 'the Human Forklift') but he isn't able to function in society and prefers to self-medicate with beer or marijuana. We haven't been forced to take drastic steps.

Well, the problem also is if I bailed her out, there is no telling what she will do. I could easily see her going to the police station to give the officer a piece of her mind. She doesn't think right, dude. Honestly, she never admits guilt. So, bailing her out would essentially be begging her to get in more trouble, plus, I know if she is in there long enough she will start demonstrating the behaviour. Like talking to no one in the room, and laughing hysterically. She also like to build alters out of anything she can find. So, I don't know I think bailing her out is like begging her to get more charges, and I and my sister will have to pay them anyway. She doesn't work, and really can't as she is socially incompatible, and incapable. So, leaving her in jail creates more unbiased witnesses in my view, and keeps her from further commiting additional offenses. Basicly

(in reply to WyrdRich)

Post #: 9

RE: Curious to what others would do. - 12/8/2006 5:43:52 PM

KatyLied

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From: Pennsylvania
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Oh, you don't have to pay her bills. That is enabling this cycle of her refusal to admit she has a problem. Could it be possible that it's time for tough love? I hate to think of anyone with a mental disorder being jailed, but if it gets her into the proper treatment it may be a necessary step.

_____________________________

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- Albert Einstein

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)

Post #: 10

RE: Curious to what others would do. - 12/8/2006 5:50:47 PM

LTRsubNW

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Spitting on a cop isn't (unfortunately) going to get her any psychiatric assistance...just more jail time and eventually some abusive behaviour by the local cops.

What you're doing is correct, but take it one step further.

Judges are just people...they go home every day to a wife, husband or roommate, they have people in their families that didn't hit the mark in life. They're not incompassionate is basically what I'm saying...with one exception:

If all they have to go on is the persons record (whether short, or long), they'll look up the appropriate sentencing guidelines (if sentencing is called for) and they'll effectively put peg A into slot B.

You can change that, to some degree.

Find out which judge is likely to preside over her case. Ask to take him to lunch. He'll insist that's innapropriate. If he does, speak to 3 of the local attorneys that work his courtroom to find the best one to aid in your cause. The way you do that is, go to his courtroom when it's in session, ask 3 of the attorneys that are there for their cards. Explain that you have something to discuss with them, but you'd rather not discuss it now. Ask them when the best time for you to call them might be.

At that time, ask each of them for the names of a) The most successful (win ratios) attorneys who try in front of this judge and b) The one they'd recommend. After you get this list, one or two will rise to the top.

Make an appointment with that attorney and explain your case to him and tell him "my Mom needs help. She's sick. I love her...I don't want her to fall through the cracks of the system...will you help me get an appointment with the judge and explain to him/her that the standard procedure/sentencing will only push her back into what she's already failing at".

They'll help you.

After all that's occurred, meet with the judge and explain that you understand (after verifying with the attorney that this is so) that he has the authority to cause a judgement in her case that will actually help her get better, possibly some state funded halfway houses and so on...and that you're willing to do anything within your ability to help, as well as support the judges final decision.

Lastly, after all this is done, send a very well composed letter to this same judge confirming everything you discussed, with a copy (as well as a cover letter explaining what this document is about) to every other judge on that bench who might end up taking the case (in case your judge gets sick, run over by a bus, etc.).

It's a start.

And it's better than just being a cog.

< Message edited by LTRsubNW -- 12/8/2006 5:59:27 PM >

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RE: Curious to what others would do. - 12/8/2006 5:51:21 PM

NeedToUseYou

Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

Oh, you don't have to pay her bills. That is enabling this cycle of her refusal to admit she has a problem. Could it be possible that it's time for tough love? I hate to think of anyone with a mental disorder being jailed, but if it gets her into the proper treatment it may be a necessary step.

If there was a choice I wouldn't, but seeing that I'm not going to let her live in a unheated unlighted house, there is no choice. She will not given a choice leave that place, and no heat and no lights won't change that, it will simply mean she will rig a heating source more than likely and create a asphyxiation/fire hazard in the mean time. If they did get shut off.

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 12

RE: Curious to what others would do. - 12/8/2006 5:58:43 PM

NeedToUseYou

Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LTRsubNW

Spitting on a cop isn't (unfortunately) going to get her any psychiatric assistance...just more jail time and eventually some abusive behaviour by the local cops.

What you're doing is correct, but take it one step further.

Judges are just people...they go home every day to a wife, husband or roommate, they have people in their families that didn't hit the mark in life. They're not incompassionate is basically what I'm saying...with one exception:

If all they have to go on is the persons record (whether short, or long), they'll look up the appropriate sentencing guidelines (if sentencing is called for) and they'll effectively put peg A into slot B.

You can change that, to some degree.

Find out which judge is likely to preside over her case. Ask to take him to lunch. He'll insist that's innapropriate. If he does, speak to 3 of the local attorneys that work his courtroom to find the best one to aid in your cause. The way you do that is, go to his courtroom when it's in session, ask 3 of the attorneys that are there for their cards. Explain that you have something to discuss with them, but you'd rather not discuss it now.

Ask each of them for the names of a) The most successful (win ratios) attorneys try in front of this judge and b) The one they'd recommend. After you get this list, one or two will rise to the top.

Make an appointment with that attorney and explain your case to him and tell him "my Mom needs help. She's sick. I love her...I don't want her to fall through the cracks of the system...will you help me get an appointment with the judge and explain to him/her that the standard procedure will only push her back into what she's already failing at".

They'll help you.

After all that's occurred, meet with the judge and explain that you understand (after verifying with the attorney that this is so) that he has the authority to cause a judgement in her case that will actually help her get better...and that you're willing to do anything within your ability to help as well as support the judges final decision.

It's a start.

And it's better than just being a cog.

Lastly, after all this is done, send a very well composed letter to this same judge confirming everything you discussed, with a copy (as well as a cover letter explaing what this document is about) to every other judge on that bench who might end up taking the case (in case your judge gets sick, run over by a bus, etc.).

It's spitting and attempting to hit him. They actually maced her to take her down.

Well, we do have one advantage in this. The cop does know her, and my sister. My sister is a prison guard, and alot of cops also work at the prison. So, I'm pretty sure the cop that was assualted will be for mental treatment. We are going to try to talk to the prosecutor, and see how open minded he is. If that doesn't work well, I don't know at this point.

(in reply to LTRsubNW)

Post #: 13

RE: Curious to what others would do. - 12/8/2006 6:12:51 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

I thought I would share some facts and some links to help

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/crime/jailed/

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2003/10/22/usdom6472.htm

http://www.psychlaws.org/GeneralResources/Fact3.htm

You are not alone in this believe me.... hope this helps

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)

Post #: 14

RE: Curious to what others would do. - 12/8/2006 6:28:53 PM

WyrdRich

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Joined: 1/3/2005
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Sounds like your Mom is dealing with the same demons that came up on my brother. What really sucks is that there was some dramatic improvement when he took the meds, but he stopped and refuses more. He said he didn't feel like himself.

If we forced the issue, got a commitment order, he would wind up in the very hospital where they filmed "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest." Not a nice choice.

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)

Post #: 15

RE: Curious to what others would do. - 12/8/2006 6:32:52 PM

sweetnurseBBW

Posts: 2464
Joined: 1/26/2006
From: North Carolina
Status: offline

Jails and prisons are the worst place for mental illness. They dont address it and minimally treat it when diagnosed. Maybe since she now has a "record" it might be easier to involuntary committ her or an emergency comittment as some have said.

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Post #: 16

RE: Curious to what others would do. - 12/8/2006 6:54:52 PM

NeedToUseYou

Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
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Thanks I'll read them.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 17

RE: Curious to what others would do. - 12/8/2006 6:57:07 PM

NeedToUseYou

Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

Sounds like your Mom is dealing with the same demons that came up on my brother. What really sucks is that there was some dramatic improvement when he took the meds, but he stopped and refuses more. He said he didn't feel like himself.

If we forced the issue, got a commitment order, he would wind up in the very hospital where they filmed "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest." Not a nice choice.

So, what did you do? If he isn't getting treatment.
Because I'm not dealing with this forever. I've already dealt with it since school age and at some point it seems like you have to force treatment for your sanity.

(in reply to WyrdRich)

Post #: 18

RE: Curious to what others would do. - 12/8/2006 7:13:29 PM

WyrdRich

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Joined: 1/3/2005
Status: offline

        We are pretty much in a holding pattern. He started changing in his early 20's, long periods (days) spent just staring off into space, alone in a room. That was followed by the conversations with people who aren't there. It's only in the last year and a half that the immediate family forced ourselves out of denial about it.

        He is smart. He plays sane very well when he needs to. He spent some weeks in jail on a drug thing with no episodes (honestly, when someone his size is sitting quietly, the jail staff is going to be just fine with that). When it is very cold, he shows up at our Mother's place. A few days later he is gone again. He is covered by her housing arrangement and I guess he gets food stamps and such.

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)

Post #: 19

RE: Curious to what others would do. - 12/8/2006 7:24:18 PM

sophia37

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Joined: 2/7/2006
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Leave her there. In order for the sytem to kick in, youve got to let it take its course. Let it run the process. You'll at least have the paperwork. That how you lay the foundation for assitance. Through paperwork. If you take her out you defeat the purpose and enable the behavior.
I've been through the whole system with family members of my own. Plus you can most likely get help with her bills after this. Shes pretty unfit to manage on her own from the sound of it. Its a lot of running around form place to place but whats the alternative? Having her end up homeless or harming others? Just try and not let it get to you. She's unwell. But human. Be fair but firm in your resolve. My prayers go with you. Sophie

(in reply to WyrdRich)

Post #: 20

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