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The 'Master/Mistress' is always right - 12/6/2006 6:32:23 AM   
Jasmyn


Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

LOL I love something I read on the Butchmann's website years ago.
Paraphrased
A Master is not always right, but the slave does not submit to the Master's rightness, they submit to the Master.
Obedince is not contingent on the Master being right.

 
lol I love this too. 
 
In the thread "Where do you draw the line?", this was posted and the question was asked where you draw the line on obedience.  Like being ordered to kill someone, or spread a disease, rob a bank, etc.,   It's a good thread, and I didn't want to hi-jack it or take it off track ... hence another thread on a similar topic.
 
But to the toppy types out there ...how often have you used 'the Master/Mistress is always 'right' ...or to always be obeyed?   That whole obeying without question ... that yummy thing non-toppy types like to do when they are want to trust you?
 
 
 


_____________________________

quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.


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RE: The 'Master/Mistress' is always right - 12/6/2006 6:52:23 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Someone in the other thread offered up the idea the military uses, and I like it as well.
The idea the military uses in their ethics of warfare training.
The one question a person should never forget to ask themselves, "Is the order a legal order"
This extends into the BDSM realm in my mind at least in the form of

Does the order require that I violate my moral code?
Does the order require that I violate the negotiated limits of the relationship?

If those things are covered then I expect the thing to be done
If on the other hand the order seems to violate either of them, It is always permissible to ask for clarification.

(in reply to Jasmyn)
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RE: The 'Master/Mistress' is always right - 12/6/2006 7:01:00 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		There are few times that I'd expect blind obedience, but I can think of several situations where I'd expect it. Most of them are spiritual in nature. I'd hope, at that time, there is enough trust developed that it wouldn't be an issue. Of course, the slave always has the right to not obey...and of course, there are consequences.

The same person who was quoted is often heard asking, "Are you willing?" without explanation...and he won't tell you what he wants you to do without a yes. *chuckle* I used to be afraid of him. Now, I know him well enough to know that there's nothing that he'd ask me to do that's, in the end, any more frightening or dangerous than anything I'd do to/for myself.

Master Fire


_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to Jasmyn)
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RE: The 'Master/Mistress' is always right - 12/6/2006 7:03:53 AM   
MisterAndMistres


Posts: 6
Joined: 7/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
If on the other hand the order seems to violate either of them, It is always permissible to ask for clarification.


Whenever we get any kind of service from a slave, we always tell them that they should react to any command from us in one of two ways:

1) Listen, think, obey

or

2) Listen, think, request clarification, obey

It is so important to us that a slave actually makes our lives better by applying not only physical actions, but also by using their brains.  We are not omniscient, and expect a slave to inform us if a reques we make could have unexpected consequences.

Aside from that, Archer's excellent post covers the topic quite nicely. :-)

Taggard

(in reply to Archer)
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RE: The 'Master/Mistress' is always right - 12/6/2006 8:02:04 AM   
MstrssPassion


Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline 		The closest I come to this is ultimately the final word/decision is mine but this should never be confused with "I'm always right".

I'm not always right but I have to enforce & follow through with what I feel is right & by doing so I am also accountable for  the repercussions of any wrong decision I make.

My partner have more going on than just our own D/s dynamic... we also have a family & everything else that goes on within a typical family structure.

When it comes to all of these typical family things that must be decided upon we truly attempt to address these as united & equal because the children should view parents this way  but because we are also a D/s couple, at times when we don't have a meeting of the minds... my word would still be final.

< Message edited by MstrssPassion -- 12/6/2006 8:08:15 AM >

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MstrssPassion


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RE: The 'Master/Mistress' is always right - 12/6/2006 8:03:27 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		And there is some truth to the statement that if a dom has to USE the line "I'm always right, just accept that" in order to create authority and obedience, that there's a problem with communication and security already.

I don't think that's universally true, but it's true enough.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: The 'Master/Mistress' is always right - 12/6/2006 8:10:31 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		For me it is this. I am the one in charge, I may not always be right but I am always in charge.

That being said, I am open to new ideas and discussion. I may end up seeing things in a different perspective or not. But I am still the boss.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 12/6/2006 8:11:23 AM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: The 'Master/Mistress' is always right - 12/6/2006 8:15:47 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jasmyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

LOL I love something I read on the Butchmann's website years ago.
Paraphrased
A Master is not always right, but the slave does not submit to the Master's rightness, they submit to the Master.
Obedince is not contingent on the Master being right.

lol I love this too.
In the thread "Where do you draw the line?", this was posted and the question was asked where you draw the line on obedience. Like being ordered to kill someone, or spread a disease, rob a bank, etc., It's a good thread, and I didn't want to hi-jack it or take it off track ... hence another thread on a similar topic.
But to the toppy types out there ...how often have you used 'the Master/Mistress is always 'right' ...or to always be obeyed? That whole obeying without question ... that yummy thing non-toppy types like to do when they are want to trust you?



I never claim I am always right but I've certainly replied "of course I am" when told I was correct about something.

Usually I just point out that this is my decision and that is all it takes.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Jasmyn)
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RE: The 'Master/Mistress' is always right - 12/6/2006 8:38:54 AM   
catfood


Posts: 52
Joined: 11/30/2006
From: new jersey
Status: offline 		the sign of someone who is truly capable of mastery of another lies in the concern and care they show for those who submit to them.  i can't imagine harming (real harm through demands for obedience that would endanger my submissive physically, mentally, or emotionally) someone who has given me the precious gift of their power and trust.  it is easy to say, but hard to rigorously adhere to that philosophy.  that is why i have to EARN your service, trust and respect. an honest appraisal of myself reveals that i really know very little in the grand scheme of things, and i am frequently wrong.  that awareness of my own fallibility guides me.

check your inhibitions at the door, but  hang on to your common sense and values.  there is no such thing as a sliding scale value system. the downside of this wonderful technological terror called the internet is the fact that ultimately it is all ones and zeros.  thus the electronic request for you to kill, and the lengthy description of oibedience, are digital fantasy. this can create a chasm across which many can't seem to leap, wherein real life experience tames the electronic fantasies. i suspect those who are proponents of the "master must be obeyed in all things" are digital doms.  fair enough, enjoy your fantasy, but i'll be here telling you to check your head when you veer to the inane and insane.

be well.

(in reply to thetammyjo)
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RE: The 'Master/Mistress' is always right - 12/6/2006 9:01:59 AM   
Jasmyn


Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
Status: offline
quote:

The same person who was quoted is often heard asking, "Are you willing?" without explanation...and he won't tell you what he wants you to do without a yes. *chuckle* I used to be afraid of him. Now, I know him well enough to know that there's nothing that he'd ask me to do that's, in the end, any more frightening or dangerous than anything I'd do to/for myself.

Master Fire

 
Have often said "a sub has no business asking to serve me if they do not trust me" ... 'serve' of course can be anything from bending over for a caning in a private or professional sesssion to privately begging to wear my collar.... and then baulking at everything being asked of them. 
 
I guess what I like about the quote is it lends itself to the idea of surrendering to someone is learning accept that within the dynamic, the Master/Mistress, like LaTigresse say's is "still the boss". 

Btw, thanks everyone for your input so far

_____________________________

quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.


Visit My Website


(in reply to MasterFireMaam)
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RE: The 'Master/Mistress' is always right - 12/6/2006 9:12:00 AM   
Jasmyn


Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
Status: offline
quote:

And there is some truth to the statement that if a dom has to USE the line "I'm always right, just accept that" in order to create authority and obedience, that there's a problem with communication and security already.
 
LA I agree with the reality that plenty of things, tools, techniques, beliefs, practices, and theories about wiiwd are open to abuse and misuse in order to create authority and obedience ... but does it make the theories, techniques, beliefs, etc necessarily bad? 

_____________________________

quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.


Visit My Website


(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: The 'Master/Mistress' is always right - 12/6/2006 10:00:54 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jasmyn
LA I agree with the reality that plenty of things, tools, techniques, beliefs, practices, and theories about wiiwd are open to abuse and misuse in order to create authority and obedience ... but does it make the theories, techniques, beliefs, etc necessarily bad? 

In this case, not inherently- just most usually.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Jasmyn)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: The 'Master/Mistress' is always right - 12/6/2006 10:10:07 AM   
Elegant


Posts: 1024
Joined: 3/15/2005
Status: offline 		I tell my kids to do something. They ask 'why'?

'Because I said so'.

Master asks me to do something. I usually don't ask why.


_____________________________

Elegant
~Slave To Master Archer

http://www.FantasiesInLeather.com

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: The 'Master/Mistress' is always right - 12/6/2006 10:16:59 AM   
BlackFyre


Posts: 15
Joined: 11/26/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jasmyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

LOL I love something I read on the Butchmann's website years ago.
Paraphrased
A Master is not always right, but the slave does not submit to the Master's rightness, they submit to the Master.
Obedince is not contingent on the Master being right.

 
lol I love this too. 
 
In the thread "Where do you draw the line?", this was posted and the question was asked where you draw the line on obedience.  Like being ordered to kill someone, or spread a disease, rob a bank, etc.,   It's a good thread, and I didn't want to hi-jack it or take it off track ... hence another thread on a similar topic.
 
But to the toppy types out there ...how often have you used 'the Master/Mistress is always 'right' ...or to always be obeyed?   That whole obeying without question ... that yummy thing non-toppy types like to do when they are want to trust you?
 
 
 



The view that the Dominant is always right has never really fit in to My way of thinking. Part of this is due to the fact that We are only human, not Gods (at least most of us ), and another part is that I prefer My submissives to be a bit on the bratty side. The biggest part of My way of thinking, however, is that We are NOT always right, as much as We like to think otherwise. While this may not matter in some minour issues, there are some matters on which more than one side of the issue should be listened to.

< Message edited by BlackFyre -- 12/6/2006 10:17:42 AM >

_____________________________

This is just another altar in the Church of Pain.

-The Crow

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RE: The 'Master/Mistress' is always right - 12/6/2006 10:23:45 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elegant

I tell my kids to do something. They ask 'why'?

'Because I said so'.

Master asks me to do something. I usually don't ask why.


It depends on the situation for most people.

This is a situation where authority with children differs from authority over a slave.  Of course there are always situations in which orders simply should be obeyed.  Teaching respect for authority itself is a good skill.

But children also need to be encourage to think critically and how to properly engage in critical discussions and debates.  Always shutting them down and training them not to ask questions handicaps them severely.

As always- a balance and sense of propriety must be struck.

For a slave, while I think unless the slave is stupid, it's a waste of resource to not encourage them to ask questions and think critically about situations, it's completely up to the relationships preference.  A slave isn't necessarily being groomed to go out and become an independent adult in the world like a child is.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Elegant)
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RE: The 'Master/Mistress' is always right - 12/6/2006 10:24:32 AM   
Grlwithboy


Posts: 655
Joined: 2/8/2005
Status: offline 		I am definitely not always right and there are times that I will solicit possible alternatives to the first thing that springs to my mind from the ranks. (They're smart, it's part of why they're handy)

However there are times where I am driven by capricious, irrelevant, and inconvenient desires  to be adhered to and not questioned. If that's too selfish, I'm not the person to be with. This kind of reflexive obedience presents a challenge and a stretch in a culture where one's encouraged to always be critical checking on guard and deciding "how does this benefit me?"

There's nothing WRONG with that, per se, but it's an important part of my philosophy and my interests to be able to afford a slave/submissive an opportunity to let that kind of guard down - to obey reflexively and naturally.  This isn't entirely selfish nor entirely highfalutin' -- it can be a hell of a good time to spring silly order #21 on someone at an embarrassing time when that's a mutual kink.


< Message edited by Grlwithboy -- 12/6/2006 10:30:19 AM >

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RE: The 'Master/Mistress' is always right - 12/6/2006 10:28:25 AM   
Elegant


Posts: 1024
Joined: 3/15/2005
Status: offline 		This is one reason I have so much trouble with online discussions. I forget to use those emotiocons and/or words to signify my tone of voice and/or emotions.

Had I remembered in the above thread I would have inserted sarcastic grin

We enocourage the kids to think critically as ask questions, ask questions, ask questions. (But if they ask me one more time 'Why do I have to take out the trash' I am going to sell them). Master encourages me to think freely, ask questions and speak my thoughts. But is he says 'Take off my boots' I don't ask why.


_____________________________

Elegant
~Slave To Master Archer

http://www.FantasiesInLeather.com

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: The 'Master/Mistress' is always right - 12/6/2006 10:49:14 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		::chuckles:: Himself is not 'always' right, but he needs to be right 'most' of the time or something's wrong!

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: The 'Master/Mistress' is always right - 12/6/2006 11:05:30 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		In my dynamic he is Daddy, not "master", so I do not know if this question is relevent to my circumstances. I can state an opinion, I can advocate for my opinion, I can agree to disagree with his opinion... but here is the deal, someone needs to have the last word, and he is the one that has it. I do not have to think he is right, I do not think he would expect me to say that he was right when I did not believe he was in my heart. That would be lying!

It is ok if I do not view him as infallible, it is ok that I do not think he is God-like.. the world will not come to an end. I can question him, I can disagree with him, I can even vocalize these things... but when push comes to shove he makes the decisions in our relationship.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 12/6/2006 11:06:38 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: The 'Master/Mistress' is always right - 12/6/2006 11:10:28 AM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jasmyn
But to the toppy types out there ...how often have you used 'the Master/Mistress is always 'right' ...or to always be obeyed?   That whole obeying without question ... that yummy thing non-toppy types like to do when they are want to trust you?


I realized that I didn't really answer some of the questions...and since I know there are people hanging on my every word...;-)

I've never used "Master is always right." I think that's a ludicrous notion. The only time I've ever followed something like that is in old-fashioned customer service. I haven't, on any occassion to date, had to pull the "you will obey or else" card in order to simply make my slave(s) do anything. I have said to anne, on a few ocassions, "I want you to do X" or "you will do Y" and she has never disagreed, so, I've never had to insist on her obedience. But then, we're clear that she's of the mindset that if I tell her to go sit in the street, she'll do that. The flip side of that is my responsibility to block traffic so she's not run over by obeying me.

I have the mindset that the slave can obey or not...with consequences. I cannot, ultimately, force anyone to do anything. I've had relationships slowly erroded away due to lack of obedience. I state what I want, then I watch and assess behavior. Perhaps this is a weak point in my Mastery...that I don't insist enough? That I don't issue ultimatums? That I don't coerce people into obey me? I dunno. Mabye...or I might just be be projecting what I think others think I should be like. In the end, if I have to insist on things I would rather be given freely, it's probably not really the flavor of Ms relationship that I want.

Master Fire


_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to Jasmyn)
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