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RE: Is it paradoxal to be both a sadist and a machocist... - 11/18/2006 6:25:25 PM   
slavemaia


Posts: 395
Joined: 8/26/2006
Status: offline 		i thought this was a very cool statement by my Master who says "To some degree, just choosing to be different from the "norm" is a bit masochistic, as it leads to a form of pain." And believe me, He is not at all into switching, nor am i.

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(in reply to MadameMonique)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Is it paradoxal to be both a sadist and a machocist... - 11/19/2006 3:50:15 AM   
twicehappy


Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadameMonique

Is it paradoxal to be both a sadist and a machocist, yet firmly a Dominate/top in every other BDSM sense?



I may just not have had enough coffee or i may be cranky but;
 
Dominant is what you are.
 
Dominate is what you do.

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Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to MadameMonique)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Is it paradoxal to be both a sadist and a machocist... - 11/19/2006 6:41:15 AM   
Dragonskiss72


Posts: 85
Joined: 9/30/2006
Status: offline 		I find that a little bit of maschocistic play enhances My experience at times

(in reply to twicehappy)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Is it paradoxal to be both a sadist and a machocist... - 11/19/2006 8:49:40 AM   
MzTlaz


Posts: 140
Joined: 8/8/2006
Status: offline 		I'll agree with this.  I can enjoy a fair amount of pain, like to try anything before I do it to anyone else (obviously this doesn't pertain to CBT *grins*) However....as has been said on a number of occasions I go from zero to Domme in a flash if you try and order me around.  I think basically you have to separate D/s and S & M, sometimes they play together and sometimes they like to remain in their very separate sandboxes.


quote:

ORIGINAL: QuietDom

I've felt for some time that I need to experience my own toys in the way they're actually used, rather than by hitting myself as best I can, so that I have a better appreciation for the sensations they elicit.  But I'd balk instantly at bondage, or at obeying commands.  My best bet, I suppose, is to find someone willing to sub/top for me, but it is rather alien to the more conventional dynamics of BDSM scenes.


"Okay, now hit me with that one.  No, harder!  Put some shoulder into it, already!  Okay, good enough.  Now let's try the little rubber one..."


(in reply to QuietDom)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Is it paradoxal to be both a sadist and a machocist... - 11/19/2006 9:10:25 AM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		Twicehappy, maybe I don't have enough coffee either.

First, I agree that there is nothing wrong with any variation of masochist, sadist, top, bottom or whatever. Switches are those we all recognize and accept readily into our circles.  I can also see someone who wants pain, yet doesn’t describe him/herself as a switch. Even if I don’t play that way, I respect those people who do. Matter of fact, it is fascinating to watch certain people do that.

However, here is the problem I see. If we take all shades of pain/sensation play out of things and concentrate on D/s alone we have levels of symbolism that keep the power structure going. Yeah, yeah, I know there is natural dominance and submissiveness, but the point here is to focus on the mechanisms of the relationship. If I do something that is symbolically unDomlike, I would not be helping my dominance.

Could a woman who enjoyed being tied up and whipped be a Domme? Sure, but she would have to work harder to overcome the submissive symbolism. Could a toe sucking, foot fetish guy be a Dom? Sure, he could, but he would, also, have to work harder, I believe. What if a guy had a fetish to work as a maid for a woman? Could he overcome the symbolism and also be a good Dom?

If we are to believe that D/s does not have to be about sex or BDSM, doesn’t a Dominant hurt his authority by doing things that are objectively unDomlike?    


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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Is it paradoxal to be both a sadist and a machocist... - 11/19/2006 3:16:04 PM   
mp072004


Posts: 381
Joined: 12/22/2005
Status: offline 		I'm not sure whether other respondents have said this.

It's useful to think of BDSM orientations as having two axes. One is for sensation, the other is for power. The sensation axis describes whether one likes to give or receive sensation, oftentimes pain. "Top" and "bottom," "sadist," and "masochist," are words that describe orientaton on this axis. The power axis is about whether one wants to direct or be directed, to be obeyed or to obey. "Dominant," and "submissive" describe one's orientation on this axis. It seems like many people think of giving sensation and giving direction to always go together (dominant top), and likewise for obeying direction and receiving sensation (submissive bottom). However, that leads to imprecision. There are people who like to receive sensation and give direction--dominant bottoms, or dominant masochists--and people who like to give sensation and take direction (submissive tops, service tops, submissive sadists). You can also top or bottom without doing inequal power in any systematic way.

If submissive topping or dominant bottoming is giving you trouble, think of massages. We can agree that a person can give a massage according to the direction of the person being massaged, yes? There, the person giving the massage is giving sensation and is carrying out the instructions of the person receiving the massage. The giver is acting somewhat like a submissive top, and the receiver is acting somewhat like a dominant bottom.

MadameMonique, it sounds like you like to give and receive sensation, and you like to be in charge in either case. You switch on the sensation axis but not the power one, which strikes me as not uncommon. Unfortunately, there isn't a clear word for that. Switch is okay, but it leads to misunderstanding. I would recommend that you describe yourself as a dominant and top in general, especially if you like to top better than to bottom. Then, you can explain your masochistic intent to your prospective partners--to submissives who seem like they would get off on hitting you the way you like, and to tops who seem okay with neutral-power or service-topping interactions.

Monica

(in reply to MadameMonique)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Is it paradoxal to be both a sadist and a machocist... - 11/19/2006 4:35:15 PM   
MadameMonique


Posts: 35
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Thank you to all whom have replied.  I think ExSteelAgain and mp072004 really cottoned on to the intent of my question, Im sorry I wasnt articulate enough to phrase it clearly for all.

I know that its ok to be what ever floats ya boat  But the mechisims of that paradoxal combination are I suppose what I was really asking about.  Im just not sure they are combinable. I think MzTalz hit the nail on the head by saying they need to "remain in their very seperate sandboxes". 

For all intents and pourposes, I am Domme.  Occasionally I enjoy machocistic sensations, I forgo these for the reasons that ExSteelAgain so elequently outlined.  It is often difficult enough to be taken seriouly as a Domme given my age, despite having a few years experiance under my belt. 

Maybe mp072004's suggestion of seeking out another top who might be ok with a nutural-power interaction would be the go.  But even that I think that maybe a challange to present my request in a way that does not confuse them into thinking I am a switch in denial!  I can just imagine how terribly wrong things could go if they got it in their mind to add a little D/s into the mix. ROFL.





(in reply to mp072004)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Is it paradoxal to be both a sadist and a machocist... - 11/21/2006 12:07:35 AM   
MadameMonique


Posts: 35
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		I was hoping my clarification above would prompt more relevent discussion.  But it appears not.

(in reply to MadameMonique)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Is it paradoxal to be both a sadist and a machocist... - 11/22/2006 7:21:45 AM   
morganMP


Posts: 7
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Bristol
Status: offline 		I am submissive, I couldnt Domme my way out of a paper bag, but not only am i masochistic, but boy can i be sadistict.
It is interesting that everyton right away thought of the Dom/me for this question and not the sub/slave. which is the way i thought of it the moment i saw it.
As to Dom/me being both S and M well thats easy, you see, they are still in control and when they say stop they mean stop! No need to set a safeword there!! IMO it does not make them any less Dominant, in fact, what better than an order to pleasure your owner and know that you are the only one who can give them that pleasure!
As with all things in life there are black and white and in between many many layers of grey.
BTW when Master puts me in a postition of authority, i am not dominat, just doing a job, like allthose subs who go to work and have a job where they too must be authorative, it doesnt make then Dominant...food for thought eh?
morgan_MP


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remember BDSM is an open word, nothing is carved in stone so everything is right. Be tolerant

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Is it paradoxal to be both a sadist and a machocist... - 11/22/2006 7:49:49 AM   
Aine


Posts: 820
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline 		morgan brings up a wonderful point.

If you think about it and look around, many submissives, both male and female work in positions that are of an authoratative nature/position of power.  Yet they are submissive at home/in their relationships.

That daily job doesn't make them Dominants.  It's merely a job.  An actor playing a doctor on tv doesn't make them a real doctor.  So you bottoming for pain doesn't make you submissive, and personally, anyone you go to to try to sate that masochism that doesn't understand that disctinction isn't someone that you need to be associating with.  People with those attitudes will only lend to you being even more insecure in your own position.

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Honey, you obviously missed the "want to be used as a toilet fetish" thread or "where do I get instructions on setting my sub on fire" thread. LOL

Thank you, DelRay for that one.

(in reply to morganMP)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Is it paradoxal to be both a sadist and a machocist... - 11/24/2006 12:14:14 AM   
MadameMonique


Posts: 35
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		*ponders*  very true. *ponders to post more once info has digested*

(in reply to Aine)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Is it paradoxal to be both a sadist and a machocist... - 11/24/2006 12:47:30 AM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		MM, I thought about this some more and I think you are trying to make it too difficult. I’m not trying to label you, but why do you stay away from using the description switch? Most of the Doms and subs I know look at switches with a sense of awe and respect. We wonder how the heck they can do that. I fully agree that a switch can be a Domme. Isn’t this really what we are talking about?

When you say you are not a switch, but a Domme who likes pain, it starts to get into semantics, logic, philosophy, symbolism and, yeah, definitions..heh. Of course none of this matters in the big picture if you like to get whipped that is your choice and you can call it whatever you want with pride. I do believe we are all on the same page there.  

< Message edited by ExSteelAgain -- 11/24/2006 12:48:00 AM >

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You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Is it paradoxal to be both a sadist and a machocist... - 11/24/2006 3:53:20 AM   
AuburnLady40


Posts: 20
Joined: 7/29/2004
Status: offline 		Doesn't it really just depend on the mood you're in for the moment?  Does it really have anymore significance then that?

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Is it paradoxal to be both a sadist and a machocist... - 11/24/2006 4:34:20 AM   
Lady Alaria


Posts: 160
Joined: 10/16/2006
Status: offline 		Hmm, it's funny, I have glitches with the opposite.

The idea of a dominant that likes pain makes perfect sense. Like a dominant that likes a good footrub, or oral service. It's another service your subs can provide. I'm kinda a bit like MM, but I actually identify more as a switch, with dominant leanings.

Service tops also make sense. They perform bdsm acts as a service. Generally in a submissive manner, even if they aren't fully aware of it and view themselves as Dom/mes(often, YMMV). I don't argue this to them, I just take full advantage of it. I enjoy 'service tops'. They make great subs for me. But the enjoyment they get from it seems to be the pleasure they provide.

What I don't get is the notion of a submissive sadist. It's probably just me, but I can't figure out how to separate my sadism from my dominance. I enjoy hurting people, I enjoy it for the power I feel doing it. I enjoy it most, and only really indulge in it when, the person I'm hurting wants me to, at least on some level. It's consensual. This keeps me away from the dark side of the force. But what I'm really enjoying, in the act, is hurting someone, not pleasing someone. Having power over them, and their sensations, not doing something nice for them. Which feels very Dommy to me.

I just don't get it really being sadism if you don't, well, get off on the idea of actually hurting someone...which I can't figure how to equate to submission at all.

Btw, thanks for the awe and respect ExSteel, even if it only partly applies....

(in reply to AuburnLady40)
Profile   Post #: 34
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