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RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/17/2006 12:00:08 PM

empresschaos

Posts: 84
Joined: 10/23/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion

quote:

I think in many ways, the s/m dynamic can make it easier for predators to exploit their lovers, and provide a veil for their manipulation.

Not at all... predators seek out prey & prey exist everywhere.

People are so quick to jump on the abuser when it is a well known fact that their are so many out there who are consummate victims. I've also been witness to people who provoke people until they explode with abusive tendencies. Some people thrive on being the victim & continue to exist in this hostile lifestyle in order to receive attention.

The world is not so black & white & people are capable of of some rather warped ways to live out their lives.

That's not exactly what I meant... I mean that abusers in general frequently minimize their role in the abuse, leaving their partner uncertain as to whether abuse has actually occured or not. I picked up a pamphlet, and it was definitely for the vanilla world.

Example: Has this person ever called you bad sexual names? Well, yeah, but most of the time it was consensual... maybe he thought it was always ok.

Has this person ever forced you to have sex? Um, yes, but sometimes I want him to... maybe I just need to be clearer about my boundaries... but then he says I'm not really submissive, or that I'm topping from the bottom.

It just confounds it.

(in reply to MstrssPassion)

Post #: 21

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/17/2006 12:09:06 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: empresschaos

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion

quote:

I think in many ways, the s/m dynamic can make it easier for predators to exploit their lovers, and provide a veil for their manipulation.

Not at all... predators seek out prey & prey exist everywhere.

People are so quick to jump on the abuser when it is a well known fact that their are so many out there who are consummate victims. I've also been witness to people who provoke people until they explode with abusive tendencies. Some people thrive on being the victim & continue to exist in this hostile lifestyle in order to receive attention.

The world is not so black & white & people are capable of of some rather warped ways to live out their lives.

That's not exactly what I meant... I mean that abusers in general frequently minimize their role in the abuse, leaving their partner uncertain as to whether abuse has actually occured or not. I picked up a pamphlet, and it was definitely for the vanilla world.

Example: Has this person ever called you bad sexual names? Well, yeah, but most of the time it was consensual... maybe he thought it was always ok.

Has this person ever forced you to have sex? Um, yes, but sometimes I want him to... maybe I just need to be clearer about my boundaries... but then he says I'm not really submissive, or that I'm topping from the bottom.

It just confounds it.

*nod* I can understand this. When people have grabbed me in ways I didn't like at play parties it's hard for me to fuss at them. I mean, I'm at a play party and I'm letting other people do more to me. I just don't want them to do anything.

I think abuse gets harder and more complicated to ID when you are a sub, particularly if you aren't just a service sub. It's sad fact of our lifestyle that actual abuse can be very easy to hide.

(in reply to empresschaos)

Post #: 22

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/17/2006 12:50:57 PM

empresschaos

Posts: 84
Joined: 10/23/2005
Status: offline

Thanks, Aquatic! Lines fuzz up easier in bdsm, and when you've fallen in love with anyone--dom, sub, or nilla--it's tough to believe that they want anything but the best for you. It's just that if someone smacks you/forces sex on you/yells at you in a vanilla relationship, it's never okay. In a BDSM relationship, it's okay sometimes, with consent, and it's easier to believe that it's a communication error than maliciousness. And boy, oh boy, lemme tell ya; you can play the communication game to death, and get absolutely nowhere with it. My dom claims he "forgot" he promised not to try and push anal on me anymore. By that time, I should have recognized I had stayed too long.

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 23

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/17/2006 1:07:54 PM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: empresschaos

Thanks, Aquatic! Lines fuzz up easier in bdsm, and when you've fallen in love with anyone--dom, sub, or nilla--it's tough to believe that they want anything but the best for you. It's just that if someone smacks you/forces sex on you/yells at you in a vanilla relationship, it's never okay. In a BDSM relationship, it's okay sometimes, with consent, and it's easier to believe that it's a communication error than maliciousness. And boy, oh boy, lemme tell ya; you can play the communication game to death, and get absolutely nowhere with it. My dom claims he "forgot" he promised not to try and push anal on me anymore. By that time, I should have recognized I had stayed too long.

Right... he forgot your hard limits and that is supposed to be ok but it's not ok if you forget to have dinner ready on time. Or perhaps being hungry is one of his hard limits and you must always make sure he is fed! Beware the wrath of the hungry dom!

(in reply to empresschaos)

Post #: 24

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/17/2006 1:16:07 PM

onlythewindknows

Posts: 259
Joined: 10/22/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: empresschaos
How do you distinguish between an aggressively dominant person and a borderline abusive one, who uses bdsm as an excuse?

if you are feeling like you are in danger... you probably are.

_____________________________

As Darth once said: "you are beaten. It is useless to resist."

(in reply to empresschaos)

Post #: 25

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/17/2006 4:28:35 PM

Padriag

Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline

Many have said that when things stop being consenual, its abuse. That's true and I agree with it but I would add one additional qualifier. When things stop being healthy, its time for a change.

Healthy can be a difficult word for some define however... especially in a lifestyle where things are done some might consider destinctly unhealthy in a traditional sense, like humiliation for example. So here's a definition of healthy that I use that I find works quite well.

Healthy is that which sustains and affirms you. Healthy things are those things which help you live, help you grow, help you be who you are. For a submissive healthy might very well include being dominated, being used, being useful to others, etc.

You know things have become unhealthy when rather than helping you grow, they cause you to pull into a shell. Things are unhealthy if you feel less confidant about yourself and who you are. Things have become unhealthy if things leave you feeling like less than you were, as though you had lost something of yourself.

Unhealthy tears you down, healthy builds you up. Think of a plant, one that is healthy is growing, its thriving, its spreading roots, it stands up like its proud to be alive. One that is unhealthy is wilted, faded, barely surviving if not actually dying, its roots are shallow, it almost seems sad to be alive. In your minds eye what do you more resemble... if its the later plant... things in your life are likely unhealthy... and that needs to change.

On a more personal note. Sounds like you've reach a point in your life where you need to take stock of who you are and who you want to be. Figure that out first, it'll make deciding about what comes next easier. It wasn't that he viewed your submission as a gift or a right that seems to be the problem... but rather that he had expectations that couldn't be fulfilled. From what you describe, I get an impression of someone who was perhaps very empty inside and couldn't fill that void no matter how much he took. Could be wrong, but that was just the impression I got.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to empresschaos)

Post #: 26

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/17/2006 5:11:46 PM

Kalira

Posts: 954
Joined: 10/9/2006
From: Fort Wayne Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

So... How does a submissive effectively protect herself against the relationship turning abusive?

By being mature, and secure in who you are and what you want. By not allowing ANYONE to cross the boundaries that you set within yourself and the relationship. And by recognizing when it's time to cut and run

quote:

What red flags should be looked out for?

Uncontrollable and unreasonable jealousy; uncontrollable and unreasonable bouts of rage or anger; feelings of being trapped with no one to turn to; inability or refusal to discuss issues of importance...there are more, but these spring readily to mind.

quote:

How do you distinguish between an aggressively dominant person and a borderline abusive one, who uses bdsm as an excuse?

Do they look to nurture and inspire growth within you and the relationship? Or do they constantly put down and try to destroy?

_____________________________

Facilius Per Partes In Cognitionem Totius Adducimur
We are more easily led part by part to an understanding of the whole.
Seneca

Damnant Quod Non Intellegunt

(in reply to empresschaos)

Post #: 27

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/17/2006 5:43:17 PM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

When people have grabbed me in ways I didn't like at play parties it's hard for me to fuss at them. I mean, I'm at a play party and I'm letting other people do more to me. I just don't want them to do anything.

The play events that I have attended, it was generally understood that you do not not touch someone else's toys (that includes the bottoms) without their express permission. Just because one person has permission to touch you, does not mean that every other person there does as well.

We have boundaries and those boundaries vary from person to person. There are some people that I meet and form an instant connection to and I am comfortable with them touching me in a familiar manner. Then there are others, that I have known for years and I am not comfortable with them touching me at all. Just because you let one person within a boundary does not mean that you have to let everyone within it. Protect your boundaries.

Knight's kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 28

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/17/2006 8:53:49 PM

LTRsubNW

Posts: 1604
Joined: 5/6/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: empresschaos

So... How does a submissive effectively protect herself against the relationship turning abusive?

My dom of two years has screamed at me for the last year for one little thing or another--not making coffee fast enough, forgetting to turn on the porch light, etc.--in a way that was not connected to our play. Frequently he would wake me up in the morning to yell at me. He has blatantly disregarded things that I was adamant were hard limits, saying I should do them to please him, and he didn't think I'd mind. They were not consensual, but sprung on me. I had rationalized those things as part of him "stretching my limits," and really, I did want to please him, but it killed the intimacy for me. I kept saying that these things were okay, and then during an argument last week, he got angry at me and threw me on the floor, breaking a couple of my new dishes. Obviously, it's curtains and there's no fixing that; once the violent line has been crossed, it only gets easier to recross.

My question is this: how do subs protect themselves against a relationship turning abusive? What red flags should be looked out for? My dom and I had a very satisfying year before any of this started, and I kept thinking I could change and fix it, but now I just feel stupid for having tried so hard. How do you distinguish between an aggressively dominant person and a borderline abusive one, who uses bdsm as an excuse?

Those are excellent questions empress.

Keep in mind these things;

1) You own the space you're in. No one has access but those whom you allow in.

2) Any man that throws you anywhere...across the room, or over less than inches...doesn't deserve an invitation to the next dance.

& 3) Always know, it's entirely possible, even likely, that you suck at making coffee.

(in reply to empresschaos)

Post #: 29

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/17/2006 10:27:30 PM

Jobsdone

Posts: 20
Joined: 8/20/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: empresschaos

Also, thank you, everyone for the wise words. I have broken off our relationship, but I am stuck here until I can afford to move in January. I have promised myself that if he lays so much as a finger on me in the meantime, I will have him arrested, and get a restraining order. If we can't live together until I can afford to move, it will be he, not I, that will be going away.

ShyOne, I have come to deeply understand what you're saying. It seems at the beginning he viewed submission as a gift, but toward the end, he viewed his dominance over me as a right, and one that could not be fully satisfied. I suppose that most of my frustration with myself is that I am a strong and independent woman. I am not the sort of person who would have put up with any of this before. I think in many ways, the s/m dynamic can make it easier for predators to exploit their lovers, and provide a veil for their manipulation.

empresschaos, I'm really sorry this happened to you. Your strength and intelligence has won out. Idiots like him make relationships such a chore. My hat's off to you.

_____________________________

slaps and tickles,

Jobsdone

(in reply to empresschaos)

Post #: 30

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/18/2006 2:56:45 AM

mons

Posts: 2400
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline

greetings

your dom sounds like my father when i was younger a child he would wake me in the night to washs dishes i had already done the night before he would wake all of us ot fight about something he said to my mother. now the first sign was the screaming that is a sign that all should look for when you have someone screaming and not telling you in a manner that is normal for a sub and a dom. he sounds as if he has lose his abitlty to control you and this makes he very mad the throwing you on the floor is the last straw dear next he will beat you with his fist the thing i would look for is and to many this is something that many feel is okay but calling you names lazy dumb stuipd things like that which no one should call anyone. another thing is keeping you aways from others like you family friends and jealous toward if you have kids and also your family . he should be proud to show you off have you on his arms not hide you away i hope you do leave him id you have no already you safelty is at state so please leave and take care he is no longer a dom not he is a abusive man

take care
mons

(in reply to empresschaos)

Post #: 31

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/18/2006 7:15:19 PM

empresschaos

Posts: 84
Joined: 10/23/2005
Status: offline

thank you, everyone, for your definitions and kind support. Things lose power when you talk about them, I believe, and I feel that much has been put into perspective.

I swear... someone should make some kind of "Has your BDSM Relationship Crossed the Line" pamphlet. This seems like something LuckyAlbatross would get behind, being the fabulous kink-cyclopedia she is...

(in reply to mons)

Post #: 32

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/18/2006 7:22:25 PM

Kalira

Posts: 954
Joined: 10/9/2006
From: Fort Wayne Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

I swear... someone should make some kind of "Has your BDSM Relationship Crossed the Line" pamphlet. This seems like something LuckyAlbatross would get behind, being the fabulous kink-cyclopedia she is...

That would never work though

Everyone's boundaries are different; no two lines are the same.

For example, even though Master and I have discussed things we will not do, and all of those boundaries are closely alligned, that does not change the fact that if one day, he decided to try one of them, I would; simply because I have given him that right over me.

For others, the crossing of that boundary may be what breaks the relationship. For some, it may not.

_____________________________

Facilius Per Partes In Cognitionem Totius Adducimur
We are more easily led part by part to an understanding of the whole.
Seneca

Damnant Quod Non Intellegunt

(in reply to empresschaos)

Post #: 33

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/20/2006 2:30:11 PM

Missokyst

Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline

Imo, if someone wakes you up to scream at you, THAT is the time you need to distinguish between abusive and bdsm.
General screaming when it is a part a relationship (and if you live in it is one) seems like a lack of control. It sounds like your dominant has been spiralling for a while. Please be careful.
Kyst

quote:

ORIGINAL: empresschaos

So... How does a submissive effectively protect herself against the relationship turning abusive?

My dom of two years has screamed at me for the last year for one little thing or another--not making coffee fast enough, forgetting to turn on the porch light, etc.--in a way that was not connected to our play. Frequently he would wake me up in the morning to yell at me.

How do you distinguish between an aggressively dominant person and a borderline abusive one, who uses bdsm as an excuse?

_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley

(in reply to empresschaos)

Post #: 34

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/20/2006 8:11:10 PM

LordODiscipline

Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

How does anyone protect themself from the disparities of life?

Often there is no precursor or "tell" for such a thing.. so the quesiton is rather unproductive.

Some will say "choose wisely" - and, you will say, "I thought I had"

Some will say,"Be smarter the next time" - and, you will say, "I am as smart as I am going to get"

Some will say: "Check his references" and then the logic of the situation will strike - People do not give bad references...

There is no real way to tell -except to tell..and, take it slowly and just 'see'

But, then - you know this - and, you realize it - and, you are simply out here to see if there is some magic pill to take that will make it better going forward.

~J

quote:

ORIGINAL: empresschaos

So... How does a submissive effectively protect herself against the relationship turning abusive?

My dom of two years has screamed at me for the last year for one little thing or another--not making coffee fast enough, forgetting to turn on the porch light, etc.--in a way that was not connected to our play. Frequently he would wake me up in the morning to yell at me. He has blatantly disregarded things that I was adamant were hard limits, saying I should do them to please him, and he didn't think I'd mind. They were not consensual, but sprung on me. I had rationalized those things as part of him "stretching my limits," and really, I did want to please him, but it killed the intimacy for me. I kept saying that these things were okay, and then during an argument last week, he got angry at me and threw me on the floor, breaking a couple of my new dishes. Obviously, it's curtains and there's no fixing that; once the violent line has been crossed, it only gets easier to recross.

My question is this: how do subs protect themselves against a relationship turning abusive? What red flags should be looked out for? My dom and I had a very satisfying year before any of this started, and I kept thinking I could change and fix it, but now I just feel stupid for having tried so hard. How do you distinguish between an aggressively dominant person and a borderline abusive one, who uses bdsm as an excuse?

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to empresschaos)

Post #: 35

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/20/2006 9:26:09 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: empresschaos
I swear... someone should make some kind of "Has your BDSM Relationship Crossed the Line" pamphlet. This seems like something LuckyAlbatross would get behind, being the fabulous kink-cyclopedia she is...

Fabulous? Well I never...

I really wouldn't set myself up as such an obvious target and would have to get out of the way of all my own caveats to begin with.

Seriously, what I said in my first reply stands- if you feel more fulfilled and looking forward to being as you are for the next ten years, it's good. If you feel trapped, or less of who you are, then it's not good.

However, if I ever thought a pamphlet MIGHT actually do some good to someone, I'd do it in an instant. But after years of not a SINGLE new sub following my advice to not get committed for at least 6 months...I know it simply won't serve its purpose.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to empresschaos)

Post #: 36

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/22/2006 9:09:57 AM

empresschaos

Posts: 84
Joined: 10/23/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: empresschaos
I swear... someone should make some kind of "Has your BDSM Relationship Crossed the Line" pamphlet. This seems like something LuckyAlbatross would get behind, being the fabulous kink-cyclopedia she is...

Fabulous? Well I never...

I really wouldn't set myself up as such an obvious target and would have to get out of the way of all my own caveats to begin with.

Seriously, what I said in my first reply stands- if you feel more fulfilled and looking forward to being as you are for the next ten years, it's good. If you feel trapped, or less of who you are, then it's not good.

However, if I ever thought a pamphlet MIGHT actually do some good to someone, I'd do it in an instant. But after years of not a SINGLE new sub following my advice to not get committed for at least 6 months...I know it simply won't serve its purpose.

So maybe they don't follow your advice, but at least they know that it's not the greatest idea to get involved so quickly, and perhaps are aware enough to tread more lightly??

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 37

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