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Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/17/2006 9:23:53 AM

empresschaos

Posts: 84
Joined: 10/23/2005
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So... How does a submissive effectively protect herself against the relationship turning abusive?

My dom of two years has screamed at me for the last year for one little thing or another--not making coffee fast enough, forgetting to turn on the porch light, etc.--in a way that was not connected to our play. Frequently he would wake me up in the morning to yell at me. He has blatantly disregarded things that I was adamant were hard limits, saying I should do them to please him, and he didn't think I'd mind. They were not consensual, but sprung on me. I had rationalized those things as part of him "stretching my limits," and really, I did want to please him, but it killed the intimacy for me. I kept saying that these things were okay, and then during an argument last week, he got angry at me and threw me on the floor, breaking a couple of my new dishes. Obviously, it's curtains and there's no fixing that; once the violent line has been crossed, it only gets easier to recross.

My question is this: how do subs protect themselves against a relationship turning abusive? What red flags should be looked out for? My dom and I had a very satisfying year before any of this started, and I kept thinking I could change and fix it, but now I just feel stupid for having tried so hard. How do you distinguish between an aggressively dominant person and a borderline abusive one, who uses bdsm as an excuse?

Post #: 1

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/17/2006 9:29:02 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: empresschaos
So... How does a submissive effectively protect herself against the relationship turning abusive?

Be a mature, secure adult and refuse to settle for anyone who doesn't respect you for who you are.

quote:

My question is this: how do subs protect themselves against a relationship turning abusive? What red flags should be looked out for?

Not feeling safe and secure, feeling like you are trapped.

quote:

My dom and I had a very satisfying year before any of this started, and I kept thinking I could change and fix it, but now I just feel stupid for having tried so hard. How do you distinguish between an aggressively dominant person and a borderline abusive one, who uses bdsm as an excuse?

One comes from security and a desire to create, the other comes from insecurity and a desire to destroy.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to empresschaos)

Post #: 2

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/17/2006 9:31:30 AM

truesub4u

Posts: 2949
Joined: 11/17/2005
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No one can tell you all the right answers..... but you seem to know them. Abuse is abuse ...is abuse. The lines been crossed....and things have gone south. Find the door...and use it. There's gonna be alot of flack coming up on definitions of abuse... are you sure it's abuse... are you sure he's not doing etc.... or wanting etc.....

Bottom line.... from your words... he's crossed the line... disreguarded your limits... and has become physically abuse.. time to hit the door...and don't look back.

_____________________________

Wisdom is knowing what to do next, Skill is knowing how to do it, and Virtue is doing it.

(in reply to empresschaos)

Post #: 3

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/17/2006 9:34:57 AM

dvart

Posts: 110
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline

Hi as someone starting out and having been in denial just because of these issues, I'm grateful that you raised this issue and look forward to reading the responses.
But I have one question: you now describe yourself as a dominant rather than a switch (or submissive).
Has the whole experience changed your orientation from submission to dominant or would that have happened anyway?

(in reply to empresschaos)

Post #: 4

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/17/2006 9:40:59 AM

MstrssPassion

Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline

hopefully you will follow through & remove yourself from this situation because you are right... once that line has been crossed it gets easier to cross & he will

Right now just work on getting yourself out, secure & set up in a new place. It will take time to be able to look back at the "what went wrong & when & what were the signs." Eventually you will be able to look at this history & the signs will be all to clear & you may even feel foolish for not recognizing it in the first place. Don't beat yourself up over this because self abuse is no better than remaining with the abuser.

These "red flags" aren't so red & often they are so subtle you never even notice it until these abusive types are yelling screaming or tossing you to the ground.

The only wisdom I can pass along is never feel like you can change or fix someone... this is something only the individual can change within their own being. Don't fall into the all too common cycle of frying pan to the fire when it comes to abusive relationships.

Good luck & best wishes

ps... I thought your name was familiar it seems you have been shuffling around with how you identify quite a bit. One more little piece of advice... topping out & identifying as a dominant is not going to offer you any real protection from abuse. I was in a relationship with a man that ended with physical abuse... he hit me, only one time, but once was all I needed to have him arrested. It was no love tap, it was a full fist to my face/mouth from a 320 lb man, not pretty. Oh yeah... this was about 5.5 yrs ago & I've identified as a dominant for over 20yrs & when I met him he identified as a switch that leaned toward submission.

< Message edited by MstrssPassion -- 11/17/2006 9:50:31 AM >

_____________________________

MstrssPassion

(in reply to empresschaos)

Post #: 5

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/17/2006 9:46:20 AM

toservez

Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
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Abuse is abuse. This life should not treat it any differently. It is at all time consensual non consent. If at anytime a person crosses this line it is abuse. It does not matter verbal, physical or sexual, if somebody does something to you that is not acceptable or harmful to you then that is abuse and you must at the very least sit down and have a frank discussion as equals and lay down the gauntlet of what you are comfortable with and at the most tell them to hit the road.

Any healthy dominant knows the line is not a fine one from dominance to abuse. If you think the line has been crossed then it has been crossed. Take care of yourself, this ceases to become a D/s issue.

_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to dvart)

Post #: 6

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/17/2006 10:04:10 AM

drawntothedark

Posts: 572
Joined: 10/19/2006
From: Arkansas
Status: offline

When I first began in the lifestyle, I had a Dom who would push my hard limites as well. Nothing I said or did changed it. It was all he could focus on. He told me the same thing yours told you, that if you really wanted to please him you would allow those limites to be crossed. The relationship disolved quickly. I understand that as a Dom you do want to "push". But hard limites are HARD LIMITES, nonnegotiable.

You said he yells at you and is abusive to you. I feel a Dom should be able to control himself. If he cannot control his angar than how can he control someone else. I'm sure that you will take everyone's good advice and do what you know you have to do.

As far as tips on being safe, I feel that if there are signs of abuse, hard limit pushing or anything that would allude you to the fact that he may have a problem, then out the door I go. Simple as that. I love the lifestyle. I love to play. I am not going to die for it however or become someone's punching bag. We must love ourselfs first. Loving yourself means you will not stand for anything less than respect.

(in reply to toservez)

Post #: 7

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/17/2006 10:06:34 AM

PONYSEEKER

Posts: 364
Joined: 9/11/2006
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One of the things I think seperates D/S from vanilla is that doms understand that they can be very much an A**hole and apreciates / respects the ability of the sub to put up with it.
When that respect for the sub is lost you have to seriously consider ending the relationship
searching ellsware.

(in reply to drawntothedark)

Post #: 8

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/17/2006 10:07:58 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PONYSEEKER
One of the things I think seperates D/S from vanilla is that doms understand that they can be very much an A**hole and apreciates / respects the ability of the sub to put up with it.
When that respect for the sub is lost you have to seriously consider ending the relationship
searching ellsware.

I don't follow this, it sounds like you're saying that Ds is unique because a dom can be an asshole and the sub will put up with it?

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to PONYSEEKER)

Post #: 9

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/17/2006 10:13:22 AM

alittleshyone

Posts: 14
Joined: 11/14/2006
Status: offline

First and foremost, no one, submissives/slaves i ncluded, should be treated as a doormat. I spent 8 yrs with a wonderful Master, when suddenly things went from bad to worse. i was fortunate enough to get myself out with the help of a fellow submissive and her Master. Since that time, i have learned several things about myself, and maintain my insistance on what is and is not acceptable. Giving of your submission is a gift, a desire. It is not something that is beaten or berated into you. A Master who does not know how to treat that gift, that you have FREELY given, not only doesnt deserve your gift, but does not get to claim that they are a Master.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 10

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/17/2006 10:15:16 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

I subscribe to the belief that taking time prior to commitment works better in the long run. Trust people to not be able to keep up an act for extended periods. Stay true to your personal goals and requirements for a relationship. Don't relinquish your responsibility to your own mental and physical safety unless and until the person you are considering proves worthy over the long term. Proof doesn't come through 'testing' or challenging; it comes from behavior exhibited over time. Observe, not only how they handle themselves with you, but other people. Do they demand respect without giving any? How do they deal with disappointment? Failure? Are they consistent? Do they empathize? When you are comfortable and confident in his/her ability to assume the same level of responsibility over you as you would for yourself you have a better chance for success.

It's not fool proof. It requires uncompromising strength and commitment on your part.

Good luck!

(in reply to toservez)

Post #: 11

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/17/2006 10:17:09 AM

Squeakers

Posts: 489
Joined: 10/3/2006
Status: offline

I don't think I could accept it if a Dom were being a total asshole. For me, there must be a mutal respect between the Dom and submissive, further there must be a respect of oneself, without respect of oneself there can be no respect of another.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 12

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/17/2006 10:23:30 AM

theRose4U

Posts: 3403
Joined: 8/22/2005
Status: offline

I do kind of have to question the switch from a straight submissive to Les Domme. Growing up on the non-consentual side of abuse I get the desire to get as far away from the problem as possible. The error that's usually a rude awakening is that the grass isn't always greener. Jerks inhabit many forms, male and female, dom/me and sub it's reality.
Signs that you're going town the red flagged path, isolation, "if you love me you'll do ___ even though it's a limit" aka manipulation, losing control, looking for reasons to be upset are all subtle signs that when you start adding equal trouble on the horizon.

_____________________________

Finding a good sub is like sifting through trail mix. You find a few fruits, a lotta nuts and have to sift to get to the sweet and special ones
drama llama

(in reply to PONYSEEKER)

Post #: 13

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/17/2006 10:33:12 AM

empresschaos

Posts: 84
Joined: 10/23/2005
Status: offline

Hi, again... so there have been a couple of questions about my s/m orientation... Before this relationship, I considered myself dominant. I had never ever been submissive, nor had I desired it. I am more comfortable being dominant in a relationship. In this relationship, I was happily surprised to discover I was capable not only of being submissive, but enjoying it, too.

Now that I have left my dom, I suppose I still consider myself a switch, but I am not interested in identifying as such for the time being. I never identified as a submissive, but only as his submissive, and for the duration of our relationship, my profile said switch. I just don't think it's terribly pertinent right now. Kinda like if a lesbian had one relationship with a male, and then decided she did, indeed, prefer to date women.

Hope that clears things up a bit. :)
(edited for clarity)

< Message edited by empresschaos -- 11/17/2006 10:42:02 AM >

(in reply to theRose4U)

Post #: 14

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/17/2006 10:39:45 AM

empresschaos

Posts: 84
Joined: 10/23/2005
Status: offline

Also, thank you, everyone for the wise words. I have broken off our relationship, but I am stuck here until I can afford to move in January. I have promised myself that if he lays so much as a finger on me in the meantime, I will have him arrested, and get a restraining order. If we can't live together until I can afford to move, it will be he, not I, that will be going away.

ShyOne, I have come to deeply understand what you're saying. It seems at the beginning he viewed submission as a gift, but toward the end, he viewed his dominance over me as a right, and one that could not be fully satisfied. I suppose that most of my frustration with myself is that I am a strong and independent woman. I am not the sort of person who would have put up with any of this before. I think in many ways, the s/m dynamic can make it easier for predators to exploit their lovers, and provide a veil for their manipulation.

(in reply to empresschaos)

Post #: 15

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/17/2006 10:55:44 AM

MstrssPassion

Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline

quote:

I think in many ways, the s/m dynamic can make it easier for predators to exploit their lovers, and provide a veil for their manipulation.

Not at all... predators seek out prey & prey exist everywhere.

People are so quick to jump on the abuser when it is a well known fact that their are so many out there who are consummate victims. I've also been witness to people who provoke people until they explode with abusive tendencies. Some people thrive on being the victim & continue to exist in this hostile lifestyle in order to receive attention.

The world is not so black & white & people are capable of of some rather warped ways to live out their lives.

_____________________________

MstrssPassion

(in reply to empresschaos)

Post #: 16

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/17/2006 11:00:19 AM

dvart

Posts: 110
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline

Thanks that was an interesting reply and very useful thread.
Intent/motive seems to be the key in separating D/s from abuse and communication of course. I'm really learning lots since joining collarme.
Good luck with your ex. seems like you have it under control.

(in reply to empresschaos)

Post #: 17

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/17/2006 11:03:45 AM

RedSavageSlave

Posts: 733
Joined: 9/12/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: PONYSEEKER
One of the things I think seperates D/S from vanilla is that doms understand that they can be very much an A**hole and apreciates / respects the ability of the sub to put up with it.
When that respect for the sub is lost you have to seriously consider ending the relationship
searching ellsware.

I don't follow this, it sounds like you're saying that Ds is unique because a dom can be an asshole and the sub will put up with it?

I think what he is saying is that in his example ...even though a dom can be an asshole, he still appreciates and respects the sub... as opposed to taking for granted or just flat out not caring whether or not she submits willingly.

(in my best imitation of Synergy) ..just me.. could be wrong

_____________________________

My give a damn's busted.

So many thoughts, so few of them rational

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 18

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/17/2006 11:20:28 AM

vield

Posts: 354
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Motive and intent actually are not quantified easily so these are NOT good indications of OK vs. abuse.

Consensuality is the key. Anything done without consensuality is abuse, and may be sexual assault.

When one checks out a potential dominant or submissive partner of any gender or sexual preference, one needs to form links of mutual respect and consideration.

If these are not present, watch out.

If honesty is not present, again watch out.

Any violation of your known negotiated limits is a red flag. Without consensuality we do NOT have BD/SM, we have rape.

vield

(in reply to RedSavageSlave)

Post #: 19

RE: Protecting oneself as a sub? - 11/17/2006 11:54:57 AM

Arpig

Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline

The same way anybody else does sweetheart. be aware, and don't fool yourself.
Good luck.

_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran

(in reply to empresschaos)

Post #: 20

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